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High Sec Hauling/Mining Kills - TY CCP for No Protection

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Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#241 - 2014-08-28 21:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#242 - 2014-08-28 21:25:58 UTC
Tam Althor wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Why should CCP provide protection for your haulage in high sec?

CONCORD offer a level of deterrent just the same as any law enforcement agency, but as with any police for they're reactive and punitive rather than proactive.

If you want your haulage to be safer, bring the guns. If you don't have any guns, sacrifice some of your profit margin and hire someone who has them to escort you.

Welcome to New Eden, you just learned a very valuable lesson in being prepared and covering your back.

Smile



Remember CCP Falcon, the level of protection that concord provides players is the same level of job protection you have when the high sec players decide to quit. Will you survive the next 20% layoff when it happens?


Wow Tam Althor - you have just stuck a nice big red sticker on your forehead.
Ned Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-08-28 21:26:01 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


To be fair, the people who find targets in highsec are probably the last people he should be telling that he thinks Dscan is pointless.
Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2014-08-28 21:32:37 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.


Yes it does. I looked back through your posts and could not find said list maybe you can enlighten us again or at least point to said list.


When it comes to a gank, the ganker already knows you're in belt. The moment they warp in, they are locking you as soon as the game lets them (takes time to come out of warp on grid).

So here is the list.

Keep your ships aligned so that the moment someone tries to lock you, you insta warp. Unfortunately you will eventually move out of range of the rocks so this isn't viable.

You can warp off the moment a potential ganker (just because someone warps in doesn't mean they are a ganker) warps in and hope to warp off before they finish falling out of warp. However, now the gankers don't even have to gank to stop you from mining. They just have to camp belts.

Moving for mining barges and exhumers is pointless. You will still have an alignment time before warping and you won't be able to speed tank their guns. I can see it working for a venture though.

Your best option is to simply go with a tanky setup and hope that they won't bother to gank you if they have to lose more isk than what they will destroy. This falls apart if the ganker doesn't care about isk loss vs isk destroyed.

You can hire protection. Either hire someone to sit in belt with a pvp fit ship or hire mercs to war dec the gankers. Either one will probably cost you more than simply replacing a lost ship. At least if you get ganked you get insurance payout, salvage all the wrecks (yours and the gankers), and loot all the wrecks. If they pod you, you get a kill right and you can now gank them at any time without CONCORD involvement. Also, if the ganker is in an NPC corp, hiring a merc corp won't work.

DScan is meaningless in hi-sec.


So at what point is not being AFK suppose to protect you from being ganked?
Sure it helps. You are there to direct drones and possibly pop a few after losing a ship (key phrase, "after being ganked"). You could also get your other ships out while they focus on one. So not being AFK can certainly reduce the number of ships that get ganked (time permitting before CONCORD shows). Odds are, in tanked skiffs, you can be AFK and probably only lose one before CONCORD shows even in a .5 system.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#245 - 2014-08-28 21:33:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
You can do something about it yourself. No need to ask CCP for help.

You already have big guns too. Just like the other guy does. You just choose not to train for them, or not to use them. That's not the fault of the other guy who is just having fun. He doesn't mean anything against you personally.

This may be somewhat accurate but not really true. Even when you fit for tank or min/max mining or hauling it doesn’t leave room for guns. Should you even fit guns on your hauler/miner it won’t stop the gank.

Indy doesn’t need the ability to fight back with guns, they need the ability to defend or defend better then what they have at the moment.



GUNS will not stop the ganking. Why people even think of guns? Even if you were in a fully armed cruiser. Youwould not kill the gankers before concord arrives.

You need to be SMART, MOVE safely, use scouts. Just that.


All gank boats are profitable to gank. Ironic no?
Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2014-08-28 21:34:07 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#247 - 2014-08-28 21:37:16 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.


Range of 1 million km and if you pick up a number of cats be sure you are aligned.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#248 - 2014-08-28 21:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.


Yes it does. I looked back through your posts and could not find said list maybe you can enlighten us again or at least point to said list.


When it comes to a gank, the ganker already knows you're in belt. The moment they warp in, they are locking you as soon as the game lets them (takes time to come out of warp on grid).

So here is the list.

Keep your ships aligned so that the moment someone tries to lock you, you insta warp. Unfortunately you will eventually move out of range of the rocks so this isn't viable.

You can warp off the moment a potential ganker (just because someone warps in doesn't mean they are a ganker) warps in and hope to warp off before they finish falling out of warp. However, now the gankers don't even have to gank to stop you from mining. They just have to camp belts.

Moving for mining barges and exhumers is pointless. You will still have an alignment time before warping and you won't be able to speed tank their guns. I can see it working for a venture though.



You're not speed tanking their guns tracking, you're speed tanking their range. Blasters don't shoot far, mmkay?

[Mackinaw, Speed tank]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Alternatively, you can be aligned and nearly not moving (top speed is 17m/s, so set to 13m/s) if you have a friend in fleet with you.

[Mackinaw, Anti-Gank]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I



D-Scan gives you extra protection with both setups.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#249 - 2014-08-28 21:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.
Eh, no. I never said that. In fact, I rather said the exact opposite. Please stop making things up. In particular, stop putting words in my mouth. This was something you said in a moment of confusion about what CONCORD actually did to the behaviour of players.

Angeal MacNova wrote:
It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.

Setting aside for a moment that you're completely wrong about that one, how is it a fallacy? Could you please categorise what type of fallacy it is? If not, could you please stop using the word — it does not mean what you seem to think it means. Ugh

Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.

Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.
…and it's still not pointless in highsec. Again, setting aside the fact that you didn't limit your claim and made a very general (and incorrect) statement so you now have to move the goalposts, dscan helps miners protect against gankers just fine even in highsec. You just have to know how to use it. So Jonah's answer is entirely correct even with your alteration.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#250 - 2014-08-28 21:50:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.
I know exactly what we're talking about TYVM, that doesn't change the fact that you stated "DScan is useless" without any qualifiers.

And you're still wrong, DScan has saved my arse more than once while I've been mining, used in conjunction with local, knowing what ships gankers use and setting gankers to red it makes it relatively easy to notice when a group of gankers is inbound. Not being there when they roll up in the belt is a good way to not get ganked.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2014-08-28 21:51:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.
Eh, no. I never said that.


Quote:
if it wasn't such a deterrent, ganking wouldn't exist. Instead, it would be a wholesale, carefree, and unavoidable slaughter.


My bad. Ganking would even exist. It would simply be wholesale slaughtering.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

Angeal MacNova
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2014-08-28 21:52:06 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.
I know exactly what we're talking about TYVM, that doesn't change the fact that you stated "DScan is useless" without any qualifiers.

And you're still wrong, DScan has saved my arse more than once while I've been mining, used in conjunction with local and setting gankers to red it makes it relatively easy to notice when a group of gankers is inbound. Not being there when they roll up in the belt is a good way to not get ganked.


Then please explain how a miner using DScan will help protect them from gankers in hi-sec.

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/goodnight-sweet-prince/

http://www.projectvaulderie.com/the-untold-story/

CCP's true, butthurt, colors.

Because those who can't do themselves keep others from doing too.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#253 - 2014-08-28 21:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Then please explain how a miner using DScan will help protect them from gankers in hi-sec.
If you can't figure that out for yourself, you're beyond help.

Here's a hint, a bunch of catalysts on DScan are generally up to no good, especially when there are gankers in local. Which is where setting CODE. and their associates, as well as Goons and the other groups who like to indulge in internet spaceship fuckery to red using your personal standings; and actually being at the keyboard to use DScan and watch local come into play.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2014-08-28 21:55:11 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:


When it comes to a gank, the ganker already knows you're in belt. The moment they warp in, they are locking you as soon as the game lets them (takes time to come out of warp on grid).

So here is the list.

Keep your ships aligned so that the moment someone tries to lock you, you insta warp. Unfortunately you will eventually move out of range of the rocks so this isn't viable. In most systems there are multiple places to be aligned to. Align to point 1 until you reach the edge of your range, then realign to point 2, repeat ad infinitum

You can warp off the moment a potential ganker (just because someone warps in doesn't mean they are a ganker) warps in and hope to warp off before they finish falling out of warp. However, now the gankers don't even have to gank to stop you from mining. They just have to camp belts. If your alt (or friend) is also camping the belt in a hull with jamming bonuses the camping ganker will move on pretty fast

Moving for mining barges and exhumers is pointless. You will still have an alignment time before warping and you won't be able to speed tank their guns. I can see it working for a venture though. Align as per point one and this is no longer an issue

Your best option is to simply go with a tanky setup and hope that they won't bother to gank you if they have to lose more isk than what they will destroy. This falls apart if the ganker doesn't care about isk loss vs isk destroyed. Your tanks value is not based on the isk won vs lost relationship. It is based on the damaged able to absorbed before concord can land on grid and jam the ganker/s relationship

You can hire protection. Either hire someone to sit in belt with a pvp fit ship or hire mercs to war dec the gankers. Either one will probably cost you more than simply replacing a lost ship. At least if you get ganked you get insurance payout, salvage all the wrecks (yours and the gankers), and loot all the wrecks. If they pod you, you get a kill right and you can now gank them at any time without CONCORD involvement. Also, if the ganker is in an NPC corp, hiring a merc corp won't work. If it becomes known that you have a good working relationship with someone who is able to make ganking difficult, a ganking group will look for easier meat, think about the benefits of prevention of the ganking cycle rather then just protection of your hull

DScan is meaningless in hi-sec.I don't know where to begin here. D-Scan is a pretty impressive tool when you know how to use it correctly. Hint D-Scan and Overview are designed to work together.


So at what point is not being AFK suppose to protect you from being ganked?
Sure it helps. You are there to direct drones and possibly pop a few after losing a ship (key phrase, "after being ganked"). You could also get your other ships out while they focus on one. So not being AFK can certainly reduce the number of ships that get ganked (time permitting before CONCORD shows). Odds are, in tanked skiffs, you can be AFK and probably only lose one before CONCORD shows even in a .5 system. Being AFK anywhere while undocked removes any argument for defence.


Having watched a few ganks in various systems across empire, I feel safe in saying that most gank crews do not arrive on grid at their optimal but have to move to their optimal before engaging a target, if you are in a barge and 6 catalysts land 12km from you and they have the time to fly to 1500m and then engage you before you warp off, you are neglecting your own self preservation.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#255 - 2014-08-28 21:55:23 UTC
This is what you posted:
RubyPorto wrote:


You're not speed tanking their guns tracking, you're speed tanking their range. Blasters don't shoot far, mmkay?

[Mackinaw, Speed tank]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II


Alternatively, you can be aligned and nearly not moving (top speed is 17m/s, so set to 13m/s) if you have a friend in fleet with you.

[Mackinaw, Anti-Gank]

Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Ice Harvester Accelerator I



D-Scan gives you extra protection with both setups.


This is what they heard:

RubyPorto wrote:

Blerg Blerg Blah effort blerg not 100% safety so why bother blah thinking blah effort blerg effort



These people don't want solutions (especially ones that make them do things and stuff), they want FIXES. You offered sandbox, they will only accept themepark.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#256 - 2014-08-28 21:58:40 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:
DScan is pointless in Hi-sec. You know, that placer where the majority of ganking occurs. As Tippia already pointed out, without CONCORD it would be called ganking.

It's a fallacy WRT that it doesn't help stop a gank. I've already listed the reasons why.
Tell that to all the people that use DScan to find potential targets, in highsec, all of the time.

It's only as useless as the person using it.


Were talking about the miner using it as protection against gankers. Try to keep up.
I know exactly what we're talking about TYVM, that doesn't change the fact that you stated "DScan is useless" without any qualifiers.

And you're still wrong, DScan has saved my arse more than once while I've been mining, used in conjunction with local and setting gankers to red it makes it relatively easy to notice when a group of gankers is inbound. Not being there when they roll up in the belt is a good way to not get ganked.


Then please explain how a miner using DScan will help protect them from gankers in hi-sec.



By alerting them to the impending presance of gank ships. Of course the miner must actually be at the keyboard.

I don't get it, I see you in this thread and others and anything to lloks like actually playing the game is something you rail against. Do you want CCP to play the game for you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#257 - 2014-08-28 22:02:59 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
Keep your ships aligned so that the moment someone tries to lock you, you insta warp. Unfortunately you will eventually move out of range of the rocks so this isn't viable.
…except that it's entirely viable since there's nothing that requires you to mine the same rock for 45 minutes. Belts are large enough to let you keep going and never run out of range to the rocks. And that's before we even go into the various tricks that lowers your align speed…

Quote:
You can warp off the moment a potential ganker (just because someone warps in doesn't mean they are a ganker) warps in and hope to warp off before they finish falling out of warp. However, now the gankers don't even have to gank to stop you from mining. They just have to camp belts.
…which doesn't stop you from mining. If they camp a belt, it means that you are now completely free to mine your head off since the gankers are occupied doing nothing.

Quote:
Moving for mining barges and exhumers is pointless. You will still have an alignment time before warping and you won't be able to speed tank their guns.
Moving means that you have no alignment time, and as others have pointed out you are not moving to speed tank — merely suggesting that it is means you haven't really thought about what's going on.

Quote:
Your best option is to simply go with a tanky setup and hope that they won't bother to gank you if they have to lose more isk than what they will destroy. This falls apart if the ganker doesn't care about isk loss vs isk destroyed.
In other words, it works brilliantly and the only conclusion that can be drawn from how many don't do it is… well, not fit for printing because it would be such a hugely bigoted and insulting thing to say about miners as a group.

Quote:
You can hire protection. Either hire someone to sit in belt with a pvp fit ship or hire mercs to war dec the gankers. Either one will probably cost you more than simply replacing a lost ship. At least if you get ganked you get insurance payout, salvage all the wrecks (yours and the gankers), and loot all the wrecks. If they pod you, you get a kill right and you can now gank them at any time without CONCORD involvement. Also, if the ganker is in an NPC corp, hiring a merc corp won't work.
Being in an NPC corp isn't an impediment — the gankers themselves prove this. And while it may or may not be cost efficient to hire guards, the simple fact remains that they work. If you are hell-bent on staying alive, they are the ultimate answer.

Oh, and as mentioned, dscan does suddenly go inoperable in highsec — it works as a protection method there the same as everywhere else. So the point of not being AFK is that it lets you detect and evade gankers before they've even had a chance to shoot you.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#258 - 2014-08-28 22:04:02 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
By alerting them to the impending presance of gank ships. Of course the miner must actually be at the keyboard.

I don't get it, I see you in this thread and others and anything to lloks like actually playing the game is something you rail against. Do you want CCP to play the game for you?
TBH bots are better players than people like him, at least they tend to safe up when reds appear in local.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#259 - 2014-08-28 22:07:21 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
So here is the list.

Keep your ships aligned so that the moment someone tries to lock you, you insta warp. Unfortunately you will eventually move out of range of the rocks so this isn't viable.


Have safe spots bookmarked so you can always stay in range on the rocks. It's not hard.

Angeal MacNova wrote:
You can warp off the moment a potential ganker (just because someone warps in doesn't mean they are a ganker) warps in and hope to warp off before they finish falling out of warp. However, now the gankers don't even have to gank to stop you from mining. They just have to camp belts.


Gankers don't just sit in belts to stop you from mining. They want kill which they aren't going to get if they just sit around.

Angeal MacNova wrote:


DScan is meaningless in hi-sec.


Pfft, haha, no.


Angeal MacNova wrote:
So at what point is not being AFK suppose to protect you from being ganked?


Directional Scanner & being aligned is your friend.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#260 - 2014-08-28 22:07:57 UTC
To the guy saying "D-scan is useless in highsec".

It is a fairly common tactic to sit in a pod, next to a Tornado, just slightly off grid from a gate that is being watched on the other side. If you're flying that much freaking money, the scout you should have would notice the Tornado or two on short scan. At which point it's time to take a look around before you take that gate.

D-scan is useful in every area of space, don't talk about **** if you don't even know how it's used.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

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