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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#741 - 2011-11-15 15:34:26 UTC
AspiB'elt wrote:
The blaster don't have problem

Absolutely cannot agree here. All you have to do is ask yourself what do hybrids give the pilot before a shot is fired. Hybrids still give nothing in this respect, thus will always be a distant third or fourth choice in weapon systems. Ineffective ranges, cap use, and fixed damage type is just icing on the poop-cake.

I don't know how people don't see this. Cap free guns is so amazingly powerful! Dictating effective range via instant ammo swap is so amazingly powerful! Why is this so hard to understand??

Emily Poast wrote:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3012

Well I appreciate the link. Unfortunately this is what I expected. He does say "I am hesitant to boost individual ships right now," but then proceeds to mention his belief that increasing speed and agility slightly is what he thought was needed. This is, consequently, exactly what was done to the ships, so I'm having a hard time believing more is going to be done.

Emily Poast wrote:
CCP new commitment to 'get back to the ships,' I think the gallente ships are next.

I wish I could share your optimism. I really do. Sad
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#742 - 2011-11-15 15:38:10 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Yes it is plausbile.
Some more ommunication would make this very very difficult process easier.
If we can be sure ships like the eos / deimos will be looked after i would say. ok in that case the additional 5% buff to blasters is to much.

More Information helps us focus and judge the changes. If nothing is comming in addition some ships would starve; if there will be hull changes it might have been to much already.

Let me play the if case:


If there will be hull changes:
Changes to blasters for smaller ships like frigates, ceptors and destroyers are to much.


If there won't be changes to modeules and hulls:
BC's, command ships and HAC need a web range bonus and maybe and additional slot in high or med.


Thinks i would keep an eye on is:
- active armor repair bonus is no good in a time of big alpha
Eoa, Astrate, Deimos, Eris, Hyperion are strange ships....


talk to us plz :D in some way, someone
I do not want to hurt you, i just want to help :(
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#743 - 2011-11-15 16:01:05 UTC
CCP, we need confirmation there will be no further changes to the current hybrid list added to Crucible.

Might as well make people angry now instead of at launch, if not.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#744 - 2011-11-15 16:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Magosian wrote:

I don't know how people don't see this. Cap free guns is so amazingly powerful! Dictating effective range via instant ammo swap is so amazingly powerful! Why is this so hard to understand??



Commuting to work, this thought really kept popping into my head. Maybe hybrids aren't so bad but just laser and projectiles are too OP?

Projectiles have no cap use, omni damage, and are good both at LR and CR. ACs have a good RoF and Arties have lolAwesomeAlpha.

Lasers have instant crystal/range change, unlimited ammo (room for cap boosters), and armor tank freeing up a slot fo said booster, not to mention a non-sig radius penalized tank

Hybrids use cap, use cargo, and either excel at very CR or very LR, with the LR severely lacking DPS. Rails need Alpha, Blasters need DPS and speed (not agility)


no cap use is a huge advantage as you now have the ability to perma run an MWD regardless of any situation.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#745 - 2011-11-15 16:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
Magosian wrote:
AspiB'elt wrote:
The blaster don't have problem

Absolutely cannot agree here. All you have to do is ask yourself what do hybrids give the pilot before a shot is fired. Hybrids still give nothing in this respect, thus will always be a distant third or fourth choice in weapon systems. Ineffective ranges, cap use, and fixed damage type is just icing on the poop-cake.

I don't know how people don't see this. Cap free guns is so amazingly powerful! Dictating effective range via instant ammo swap is so amazingly powerful! Why is this so hard to understand??

Emily Poast wrote:
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3012

Well I appreciate the link. Unfortunately this is what I expected. He does say "I am hesitant to boost individual ships right now," but then proceeds to mention his belief that increasing speed and agility slightly is what he thought was needed. This is, consequently, exactly what was done to the ships, so I'm having a hard time believing more is going to be done.

Emily Poast wrote:
CCP new commitment to 'get back to the ships,' I think the gallente ships are next.

I wish I could share your optimism. I really do. Sad


Perhaps because you don't have read the text after this comment
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#746 - 2011-11-15 16:17:03 UTC
Tallest, you wanna go over some of the upcoming ship changes with us? there are upcoming ship changes, right? we're dying here.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2011-11-15 16:34:31 UTC
AspiB'elt wrote:
Magosian wrote:
AspiB'elt wrote:
The blaster don't have problem

Absolutely cannot agree here.

Perhaps because you don't have read the text after this comment


I read it, and I think it is wrong. Modifying armor plates to reduce/remove speed penalities does not change the inherent advantage of Minmatar base speed being higher than Gallente base speed. Another way to look at it is, armor-tanked Minmatar ships would receive the same "bonus" that Gallente ships do, thus it addresses nothing.

Frankly, I don't think armor plates and rigs should modify speed to any degree and I would love to see the penalties removed entirely. But I'm not under any illusion that removing them is going to magically make hybrids a pliable weapon system.

As I've stated several times in this thread already, until CCP gives hybrids an ability that projectiles and lasers do not already provide, there will never be an incentive or reason to switch. You can make blasters do 5000 dps (which would actually make them THE choice for cap killers) but skirmish pilots would still laugh at hybrid pilots as they fly circles around them, outside of their effective [blaster] ranges.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#748 - 2011-11-15 16:53:30 UTC
All this silence is terrible. I'm bracing for the worse at this point.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2011-11-15 17:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
Mekhana wrote:
All this silence is terrible. I'm bracing for the worse at this point.


I think it is indicative of how much CCP's attitude has (not) changed.

If they had really learned their lesson after the Pay to Win scandal, they would have read the thread and responded to it by now.
Tallest don't care what you think Blasters needs. He is going to do what he is going to do and feedback be damned. (He is the Honeybadger.)
Any attempt to listen and respond now is damage control only.
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#750 - 2011-11-15 17:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Archare
making noise for blasters, hopes ccp tallest does as well soon.....
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#751 - 2011-11-15 17:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Magosian wrote:


As I've stated several times in this thread already, until CCP gives hybrids an ability that projectiles and lasers do not already provide, there will never be an incentive or reason to switch. You can make blasters do 5000 dps (which would actually make them THE choice for cap killers) but skirmish pilots would still laugh at hybrid pilots as they fly circles around them, outside of their effective [blaster] ranges.



Very much this.

Blasters.
Less optimal than lazers
Less fall off than AC

Disadvatages of both (short optimal, cap consumption, fixed ammo type)

For a tracking and dps advantage....neither of which make up for the fact that you have to scram yourself with medium weapons....larges....we'll see I didn't get in an good knockdown drag outs with a BS on SiSi

Rails
Alpha......hahahahahahahahahahaa
DPS rails only catch arties on the LAST cycle between 1400 vollies
cap consumpion, ammo consumption, fixed ammo type.
....but hey, rails can do sub-par damage at useless ranges.

Oh yeah....friggin Tachyons track better

OH and while we are at....really? 8 range bands? 8? Who wants to try to keep up with that.


....and that isn't even getting into the hulls.

As it stands I fly Gallente and Matar with equal skill, I'm still no looking at my Gallente ships for anything but messing around and the occasion gimick fleet, the changes to the Naga make it a better all around hybrid boat then Talos neither of which hold a candle to Oracle ....and the Tornado is an entirely different zip code. For general roaming the matar ships are still going to be my go to ships.
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#752 - 2011-11-15 17:52:34 UTC
The only way I could get my brutix to kill anything was to fill my head with snakes. And then it would only get up to 2000m/s overheated. That should tell you something.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#753 - 2011-11-15 18:12:06 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
I dont know why people are so pissed. The chages so far, while not the ultimate solution, are pretty damn good.

Clearly they arent looking to chage hybrids roles and/or make them mimic lasers/projectiles. These chages going live are a boost to their current roles. Ill take it - given that he said gallente ship tweaks are next. That is where the big canges will come from - the ship bonuses.

This is the right way to do it. Change guns first, see how they play. Once you have an idea on where the failures are, fix those holes with ship tweaks and bonuses. Doing it any other way will introduce too many variables that cant be evaluated properly.

Said another way -given these changes are slight, it suggests to me that we are going to get some pretty significant ship changes soon.

My predictioms for simple change we might see:

Most gal ships get larger utility space fo an extra flight of drones
Myrm and Eos get boosted bandwidth.
Active tavking cycles will be tweaked. Gallente in general will get some kind of tweak so we use our armor and structure better.
Perhaps the return of thr long web for certain ships.
I also think blaster ships at least should get some kind of overheat bonus for durqation andor module done. That wouls indirectly boost many things:damage, speed, tank, tackle, etc. That is a sship bonus that would be easy to fix,

Regardless, the changes need to ship-specific, and SIMPLE to code. The treatises here are mostly unrealistic because of their length.

Just my opinion.


Why are people so pissed? Becouse there is no answer from CCP or Talest, people feel ignored and CCP's behaviour is like a 14 year old amateur. This is so LOL, I can't believe a company works so hard on annoying its paying customers instead of improving the product.

About your ship changes: All speculation at this time. Maybe it will take several month, maybe years, until those issues are addressed? Nobody really knows, but many fear from their experience...

I have never seen a company that has such a fail communication, especialy after promising improvement...
But it seems that that was just marketing-blah-blah.
Don't they know that marketing-blah-blah will lead to angry customers who will leave the sinking ship?

Sorry for being so negative, but the whole thread is rediculous, not becouse of the hybrid changes, no, it's becouse of they way this company communicates and reactes to their player base.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#754 - 2011-11-15 18:15:21 UTC
After playing on SiSi with some fittings, (specially with the new Naga) I see where they are going with the proposed changes. Some notes:

* Hybrids as a whole are basically fine now
* Decreased reload time increases DPS on the long run and make changing charges to dictate range a more viable tactic. This puts hybrids mid-way between Amarr (instant damage/range change) and Minmatar (slow damage/range change).
* Decreased ammo size means more cap boosters on cargo, increasing endurance. Again, mid-way between Amarr (crystals take no space) and Minmatar (chews a lot of ammo)
* The 5% damage increase to blasters give some welcome edge to an already high damage weapon

What's left to do:
* They need to look into Gallente ships bonuses to make blasters viable. The players ideas about giving MWD speed or overheat bonuses are good ideas. This together with the already proposed changes to blasters will make it more competitive.
* Caldari boats are fine. On the other hand, railguns still feel too short on tracking, specially on the smaller guns. They could use a 10/7.5% increase instead of 5%, since tracking computers compromise shield tanking by filling precious mid-slots, specially on smaller ships. Also, hybrids rigs are useless on the already powergrid-nerfed Caldari ships since they penalize power grid usage and that scales with the number of guns (and you are always fitting a full rack).

I feel there's some iteration left to be done still, but they are going the right path I believe. Go play around at SiSi a bit instead of crying for a major buff on the forums so CCP can have useful feedback.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#755 - 2011-11-15 18:45:15 UTC
Hamox wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
I dont know why people are so pissed. The chages so far, while not the ultimate solution, are pretty damn good.

Clearly they arent looking to chage hybrids roles and/or make them mimic lasers/projectiles. These chages going live are a boost to their current roles. Ill take it - given that he said gallente ship tweaks are next. That is where the big canges will come from - the ship bonuses.

This is the right way to do it. Change guns first, see how they play. Once you have an idea on where the failures are, fix those holes with ship tweaks and bonuses. Doing it any other way will introduce too many variables that cant be evaluated properly.

Said another way -given these changes are slight, it suggests to me that we are going to get some pretty significant ship changes soon.

My predictioms for simple change we might see:

Most gal ships get larger utility space fo an extra flight of drones
Myrm and Eos get boosted bandwidth.
Active tavking cycles will be tweaked. Gallente in general will get some kind of tweak so we use our armor and structure better.
Perhaps the return of thr long web for certain ships.
I also think blaster ships at least should get some kind of overheat bonus for durqation andor module done. That wouls indirectly boost many things:damage, speed, tank, tackle, etc. That is a sship bonus that would be easy to fix,

Regardless, the changes need to ship-specific, and SIMPLE to code. The treatises here are mostly unrealistic because of their length.

Just my opinion.


Why are people so pissed? Becouse there is no answer from CCP or Talest, people feel ignored and CCP's behaviour is like a 14 year old amateur. This is so LOL, I can't believe a company works so hard on annoying its paying customers instead of improving the product.

About your ship changes: All speculation at this time. Maybe it will take several month, maybe years, until those issues are addressed? Nobody really knows, but many fear from their experience...

I have never seen a company that has such a fail communication, especialy after promising improvement...
But it seems that that was just marketing-blah-blah.
Don't they know that marketing-blah-blah will lead to angry customers who will leave the sinking ship?

Sorry for being so negative, but the whole thread is rediculous, not becouse of the hybrid changes, no, it's becouse of they way this company communicates and reactes to their player base.


I believe the Amarr buff worked the way he proposes. They boosted pulse tracking and nerfed some armour modules. Two to three months later EM resistances across the board were nerfed and quite a few ships got their fitting adusted, extra turret slots, etc.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#756 - 2011-11-15 18:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Imrik86 wrote:


After playing on SiSi with some fittings, (specially with the new Naga) I see where they are going with the proposed changes.

I don't. Could you explain this?

* Hybrids as a whole are basically fine now

What? In which scenario are hybrids better than projectiles or lasers?

* Decreased reload time increases DPS on the long run and make changing charges to dictate range a more viable tactic. This puts hybrids mid-way between Amarr (instant damage/range change) and Minmatar (slow damage/range change).

All you're doing is reinforcing the concept that lasers do something better than hybrids. In other words, you just admitted to hybrid shortcomings and didn't even realize it. This IS the hybrid handicap by the way: they do nothing better than lasers or projectiles.

* Decreased ammo size means more cap boosters on cargo, increasing endurance. Again, mid-way between Amarr (crystals take no space) and Minmatar (chews a lot of ammo)

Great, so I get to carry one more cap booster 800? One? Or are you suggesting I should start arbitrarily carrying 10000-20000 hybrid charges so this change is more noticable?

* The 5% damage increase to blasters give some welcome edge to an already high damage weapon

There is nothing "welcome" about this. Ineffective range without any way to close the gap, nor any desire to increase their range, results in an unchanged effectiveness of blasters. In other words, the same problems remain.

What's left to do:
* They need to look into Gallente ships bonuses to make blasters viable. The players ideas about giving MWD speed or overheat bonuses are good ideas. This together with the already proposed changes to blasters will make it more competitive.

They are absolutely horrid ideas. Fix hybrids. This is a thread to fix hybrids, not a thread to buff MWDs or change the mechanics of overheat. Supplimenting other variables to compensate for the ineffectiveness of hybrids is already one of the many problems plaguing hybrid turrets in the first place. Doing this would only serve to exasperate current shortcomings and problems.

* Caldari boats are fine.

Eh, I think this is largely debatable, but again, this thread is for fixing hybrids.

I feel there's some iteration left to be done still, but they are going the right path I believe. Go play around at SiSi a bit instead of crying for a major buff on the forums so CCP can have useful feedback.

You're the second person in this thread to contradict himself regarding this topic.

Hybrids as a whole are basically fine now
or
I feel there's some iteration left to be done still

It can't be both. Which is it?
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#757 - 2011-11-15 19:15:57 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Tallest, you wanna go over some of the upcoming ship changes with us? there are upcoming ship changes, right? we're dying here.


Like he is reading this thread or something. Come on... he has a thick neck beard. Don't you know you can't trust a man with a neck beard?
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#758 - 2011-11-15 19:16:53 UTC
Hamox wrote:


Why are people so pissed? Becouse there is no answer from CCP or Talest, people feel ignored and CCP's behaviour is like a 14 year old amateur. This is so LOL, I can't believe a company works so hard on annoying its paying customers instead of improving the product.

About your ship changes: All speculation at this time. Maybe it will take several month, maybe years, until those issues are addressed? Nobody really knows, but many fear from their experience...

I have never seen a company that has such a fail communication, especialy after promising improvement...
But it seems that that was just marketing-blah-blah.
Don't they know that marketing-blah-blah will lead to angry customers who will leave the sinking ship?

Sorry for being so negative, but the whole thread is rediculous, not becouse of the hybrid changes, no, it's becouse of they way this company communicates and reactes to their player base.


Sorry, but the very fact that there is an entire forum dedicated to user feedback, is awash with blue posts, and contains actual resultant changes from some of the feedback proves they are better than the vast majority of software companies when it comes to communication.

I am no CCP fanboi - this is my third extended stint with eve - but they are pretty high on the scale of communication. It may not always be snappy, and it may not always be what we want, but it is pretty good.

They cant just bow to all gallente pilot demands immediately - the other 75% of races and ships must be considered. They said they were working on it - time will tell if that is true - but the changes we have seen over the last two weeks are encouraging.

Again, just my opinion.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#759 - 2011-11-15 19:18:45 UTC
Magosian wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:


After playing on SiSi with some fittings, (specially with the new Naga) I see where they are going with the proposed changes.

I don't. Could you explain this?

* Hybrids as a whole are basically fine now

What? In which scenario are hybrids better than projectiles or lasers?

* Decreased reload time increases DPS on the long run and make changing charges to dictate range a more viable tactic. This puts hybrids mid-way between Amarr (instant damage/range change) and Minmatar (slow damage/range change).

All you're doing is reinforcing the concept that lasers do something better than hybrids. In other words, you just admitted to hybrid shortcomings and didn't even realize it. This IS the hybrid handicap by the way: they do nothing better than lasers or projectiles.

* Decreased ammo size means more cap boosters on cargo, increasing endurance. Again, mid-way between Amarr (crystals take no space) and Minmatar (chews a lot of ammo)

Great, so I get to carry one more cap booster 800? One? Or are you suggesting I should start arbitrarily carrying 10000-20000 hybrid charges so this change is more noticable?

* The 5% damage increase to blasters give some welcome edge to an already high damage weapon

There is nothing "welcome" about this. Ineffective range without any way to close the gap, nor any desire to increase their range, results in an unchanged effectiveness of blasters. In other words, the same problems remain.

What's left to do:
* They need to look into Gallente ships bonuses to make blasters viable. The players ideas about giving MWD speed or overheat bonuses are good ideas. This together with the already proposed changes to blasters will make it more competitive.

They are absolutely horrid ideas. Fix hybrids. This is a thread to fix hybrids, not a thread to buff MWDs or change the mechanics of overheat. Supplimenting other variables to compensate for the ineffectiveness of hybrids is already one of the many problems plaguing hybrid turrets in the first place. Doing this would only serve to exasperate current shortcomings and problems.

* Caldari boats are fine.

Eh, I think this is largely debatable, but again, this thread is for fixing hybrids.

I feel there's some iteration left to be done still, but they are going the right path I believe. Go play around at SiSi a bit instead of crying for a major buff on the forums so CCP can have useful feedback.

You're the second person in this thread to contradict himself regarding this topic.

Hybrids as a whole are basically fine now
or
I feel there's some iteration left to be done still

It can't be both. Which is it?


You want an I win button and don't want to think. Go away.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#760 - 2011-11-15 19:25:51 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:
You want an I win button and don't want to think. Go away.


Nothing could be further from the truth. I can fly t2 Minmatar fully. I already have the " I Win" button.

Care to try again?