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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1681 - 2012-01-13 23:07:35 UTC
Dare Devel wrote:
Crucible 1.1: Blaster Ammunition: Null Gets a Boost

Range and falloff bonuses for all sizes of Null ammo have been improved to bring the stats more in line with Barrage and Scorch ammunition


This is all we get after 85 pages of head banging !!!!

Please give up all.



Impressive.

But I'll still not change my Vaga/Munin for Diemos/Ishtar in null sec and wouldn't prob do it in low sec, high sec doesn't matter when you fly Gallente since everything is almost perfect for them to succeed, hugs at gates/undocks neutral reps etc, yey such funny stuff. But I'll still have some Gallente crap in my hangar for sure, just for lulz.

The thing started bad, it's not running good and I get the feeling it's not ready to change since I can almost bet on some Minmatar boost very soon before rails are worthy for whatever or that blasters become really decent to use/fit
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1682 - 2012-01-13 23:37:38 UTC
What is really disapointing is the way CPP threads its paying clients!
They do not communicate and they do not listen to the community.
They do crap and then the CEO promisses that they will do better in future.
Then they promise a lot of ****, exiting extensions for sommer and winter upgrades, also some balance changes and finally they promisse to balance hybrids.
Now when I look back at what CPP has promised and what they hold then it is just disapointing.
They do changes on Sisi and they even can not post one little sentence here in this thread, NOTHING!

I have never seen such a stupid company that f... its paying client like this company does.
I'm not going to wait years, there are a lot of other nice games out there and also a few similar to EVE.

This said I'm going to unsub, I will let my account go for the time it is payed, should be a few weeks.
If I do not see improvement in CPPs behaviour I will just leave this game.

This whole thread is REDICULOUS!

Compared to other games in EVE you have to fu..ing work for weeks to be able to afford a nice ship or you buy plex and you pay real money for it. The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ONE CAN EXPECT IS A AT LEAST HALF BALANCED GAME FOR OUR EFFORDS AND OUR MONEY and not this OP MINMATAR **** and STUPID GAL SHIPS NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPETE WITH OTHER RACES BECOUSE OF STUPID PHILOSOPHY HAVING SLOW SHIPS AND SHORTEST RANGE! Even a 12 years old kid knows that this can't work.

The only changes we have seen in 12 month are useless stupid captains quarters and now some fancy shaders but the nebulas look **** in my opinion. It was better before the update.

Sorry for this harsh words but this whole thread is R E D I C U L O U S ! ! !
Toxic Raioin
Therapy.
Sev3rance
#1683 - 2012-01-14 00:19:11 UTC
Hamox wrote:
What is really disapointing is the way CPP threads its paying clients!
They do not communicate and they do not listen to the community.
They do crap and then the CEO promisses that they will do better in future.
Then they promise a lot of ****, exiting extensions for sommer and winter upgrades, also some balance changes and finally they promisse to balance hybrids.
Now when I look back at what CPP has promised and what they hold then it is just disapointing.
They do changes on Sisi and they even can not post one little sentence here in this thread, NOTHING!

I have never seen such a stupid company that f... its paying client like this company does.
I'm not going to wait years, there are a lot of other nice games out there and also a few similar to EVE.

This said I'm going to unsub, I will let my account go for the time it is payed, should be a few weeks.
If I do not see improvement in CPPs behaviour I will just leave this game.

This whole thread is REDICULOUS!

Compared to other games in EVE you have to fu..ing work for weeks to be able to afford a nice ship or you buy plex and you pay real money for it. The ABSOLUTE MINIMUM ONE CAN EXPECT IS A AT LEAST HALF BALANCED GAME FOR OUR EFFORDS AND OUR MONEY and not this OP MINMATAR **** and STUPID GAL SHIPS NOT BEING ABLE TO COMPETE WITH OTHER RACES BECOUSE OF STUPID PHILOSOPHY HAVING SLOW SHIPS AND SHORTEST RANGE! Even a 12 years old kid knows that this can't work.

The only changes we have seen in 12 month are useless stupid captains quarters and now some fancy shaders but the nebulas look **** in my opinion. It was better before the update.

Sorry for this harsh words but this whole thread is R E D I C U L O U S ! ! !


i know some people may laugh off that post but putting CCPs balls near the fire like every other mmo company is a GOOD thing. Good start ccp but lots left to do.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1684 - 2012-01-14 00:34:42 UTC
I really wish that they would give us some dev feedback or communicate on this forum about Hybrid balance. Hell, the design intent behind hybrids isn't even exactly clear (Example, extending null range, making it more homogeneous with the other turret systems)

IE you have a hole in the hull of your boat and its slowly filling up with water. So you use a bucket to get rid of the water initially. But you can't keep up and the boat is slowly sinking. So instead of trying to plug that hole you get a bigger bucket. Yes it will work and it does keep the ship from sinking, but theres still a damn hole in the boat.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1685 - 2012-01-14 11:15:23 UTC
must..... bump..... this... post.....
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1686 - 2012-01-14 12:33:41 UTC
but i dont get it how do the Dev`s do there math and call it balance when Maelstrom fitted with autocanons and Hail ammo have 10km more effective range then a blaster Rock with Null ammo
and only 10% less dps then a blaster megathtron with void ammo
so the maelstrom can do effective damage from 40 km away to the megathron and the megathron has to fly about 32km towards
it so it can start to do damage with only 100 dps more and before it from about 30km away he can use null ammo with about 300dps less then autocanons

damn there should be all the alarms sounding that something is completly out of balance
and the only response was now to add 15% more range to null

cammon, dont u see, thats what ur doing is a joke

at least reduce the fallof bonus on the traking enhancers to 15-20%

and then take another month to review how those changes are affecting the game
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1687 - 2012-01-14 13:25:40 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
but i dont get it how do the Dev`s do there math and call it balance...
... at least reduce the fallof bonus on the traking enhancers to 15-20%


Even the TE have been mentioned here a couple of times.
The AC will always get more out of the TE.

Medium Neutron Blaster Falloff: 5 km
425 AC Falloff: 9,6 km

Large Neutron Blaster Falloff: 10km
800mm AC FAlloff: 19,2 km


TE II gives you 30%:

The MNG gets: + 1.5 KM
The 425 gets: 2,88 km

The LNB gets: + 3,3 km
The 800mm gets 5,76

Changing TE to 10% doesn't chance the fact that AC will alwas get more out of the module than the blaster becouse it is better in that aspect BY DESIGN! The Blaster boat needs to fit 2 TE to get the same effect like the AC boat with one TE, meaning the Blaster Boat looses one extra low slot that it doesn't have becouse it needs it tank to survive its 20 minutes journey to get into weapon range.
This is only one example of many examples but I do not care about the inbalance, we all know it is there and they are working on the balance.
What really disturbes me is this company CPP. They should go into politics becouse politicians also promise a lot but don't do anything once voted.

Where is all that great stuff you have promised to us?

The only thing we have right now is this silly video "I was there" where you make marketing promises again but your video is out of reallity. You better should have spent the money in some Devs extra for balancing instead of some artist creating a fictive video...
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1688 - 2012-01-14 15:45:53 UTC
it's not just TE that are over powered, there are a lot of low slot mods that now massively outperform their mid slot counterpart.

This happened when scripts were introduced. So many mid slot modules didly just loose one of their stats by having to choose which of their two functions they would use to it's full extent. The function they use was also reduced so the mods effectiveness was almost quartered. This was a big boost to Mini and Caldari and a stealth nerf to Amarr/Gallante.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1689 - 2012-01-15 08:48:40 UTC
i have been messing around with the deimos and am almost liking it... with the null changes... i am shooting just over 28km (would prefer to reach out to 32km)

tbh i think the 6th highslot goes unused most of the time and would be much better situated as a 4th mid slot... (which would allow for either more tracking comps or i could go for nano/shield setup)

plus please add more base PG... just enough so i dont have to fit TWO pg rigs... (1 is ok if you want neutrons) that way i can put on a ex rig...

it also needs more cpu for the added 4th mid slot...

i am pushing over 2100m/s with heat on and 650 dps with heat and 79 of that is from warrior II...


[Deimos, Deimos fit]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Null M
[Empty High slot]

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range

Tracking Enhancer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1690 - 2012-01-16 19:23:31 UTC
Could someone from CCP please detail current SiSi hybrid changes regarding null and possibly:

1) railguns, medium-sized fittings seems to need further tweaking, as does damage at the medium and large levels
2) any plans to provide hybrid ships some kind of defensive mechanic

Since we're on the topic: if Null changes are in SiSi, shouldn't this thread be re-stickied?

The lack of communication is vexing.

Thanks
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1691 - 2012-01-16 21:23:21 UTC
The Null changes are as follows:
1.25x optimal bonus changed to 1.4x
1.25x falloff bonus changed to 1.4x

Yes, medium rails need work. But in all seriousness Hybrids are pretty damn awesome now. If you're having trouble grasping that, you're pretty bad at using hybrids.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1692 - 2012-01-16 21:40:00 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
The Null changes are as follows:
1.25x optimal bonus changed to 1.4x
1.25x falloff bonus changed to 1.4x

Yes, medium rails need work. But in all seriousness Hybrids are pretty damn awesome now. If you're having trouble grasping that, you're pretty bad at using hybrids.


Are you capable of making a post without insulting the people whom you're supposed to represent?

I am aware of the SiSi changes. My immediate concern is why there wasn't a dev post in these forums notifying anyone about it, and as you said, if hybrids need more work, then what else is in store?
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1693 - 2012-01-16 22:21:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamox
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Yes, medium rails need work. But in all seriousness Hybrids are pretty damn awesome now. If you're having trouble grasping that, you're pretty bad at using hybrids.


Time will show if the weapon system and the plattform can compete with the other systems, especially Minmatar.
May I quote you in a few months? Off course only if I'm still playing this game by then.

I do not really believe that Hybrids are "pretty damn awesome" now. Maybe at gate camping or in some WH situations but thats it. But as I said, time will show if you are right.

Edit:
I just wonder what ACs are. They need less CPU and PG, their plattforms can fit more TEs easily and also they will benefit more from each TE, they do not need cap, do almost the same damage as Blasters with far more range and can choose damage time. Thats what I would call "pretty damn awesome".
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1694 - 2012-01-16 22:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
You won't see a huge increase in Gallente or falloff in Minmatar preference (no pun intended), but that has more to do with the current state of the game and the lack of players committing to fights. People will always prefer to run away when they can, and alpha fleets will alphas trump ROF, and as a result Minmatar will still remain popular. This doesn't mean Hybrids are worse than Projectiles, that simply means that the Hybrid playstyle is less popular than the crap that Minmatar promotes.

What the Hybrid changes have done is make those weapons the proper high damaging sluggers they are intended to be.
If someone comes into range, Hybrids will (now) always have a clear damage advantage unlike, prior to the patch, where Autocannons were roughly on par.

Also, blasters with Void ammo actually track well enough now to use.
The tracking difference is 5% worse than regular Antimatter used to be, making it pretty good against bigger/slower targets. When you factor in the ammo actually taking half the cargo space, you can now carry an extra set of ammo without having to sacrifice your main stashes of ammo or cap.

With the Null changes, blasters are ensured to still have some bite beyond point-blank range.
The changes are even more evident on the larger ships and those which can fit Neutron blasters.

And for the record, I haven't been part of a gate camp for well over a year, and I've not even been in a fleet for 8+ months.
All my pvp is primarily blaster-equipped Gallente done solo.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#1695 - 2012-01-16 22:58:50 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:

Yes, medium rails need work. But in all seriousness Hybrids are pretty damn awesome now. If you're having trouble grasping that, you're pretty bad at using hybrids.

Uff, finally a spot of sanity among obscurantism.

What's your view on further work upon rails, by the way? I'm a firm believer they are absolulety ok already.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1696 - 2012-01-16 23:33:58 UTC
I think it has more to do with Artillery and Scorch being so damn awesome than rails actually being *bad*.
The same applies at all levels of pvp. Tachyons are pretty good, but Artillery is almost always preferred. When it comes to small weapons, nobody even bothers with beams and small rails are actually decent, but still less preferred compared to Artillery.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1697 - 2012-01-16 23:38:02 UTC
you know how there is in the atributes shots per volley? well it would be neat if ammo like void shot two shots per volley but had a reduced rate of fire by like 25% or something like that...

that way blasters could act like close range arties...

as for rails... personally i would like to see thier rate of fire increased and cap activation cost decreased to compensate...

this would then inverse gal/caldari fighting montra in comparision to energy/projectiles...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1698 - 2012-01-16 23:46:53 UTC
As far as actual damage application goes, all the long range weapons are pretty similar.
The differences are all in the ROF & Damage mod.

For example, 720mm Artillery has 3x the damage mod & ROF compared to 250mm Railguns.
However, the Railgun does the same amount of damage (on paper) in the amount of time it takes the Artillery to cycle it's next shot. Artillery has a major advantage because if you mass enough ships you can easily alpha people through their tanks, and this is extremely relevant in large fleets. In fact, much of 00 fights consist of these types of engagements. So it doens't matter how much *better* medium rails become, as they've already got better range and tracking and equal damage, Artillery will always be the premier choice.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1699 - 2012-01-16 23:57:33 UTC
another idea would be reducing the sig resolution of rail guns... so they can get a higher number in the chance to hit formula thus making more high damage type hits on smaller targets... this could give rails the ability to take on smaller ships type fleets at long range...

so you would use the arties to take on the big buffer stuff and use the rails to kill the smaller stuff...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1700 - 2012-01-17 00:14:05 UTC
Wouldn't matter, because at that range the high number of players that are usually associated with "long range" fights will overwhelm the target despite signature size.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT