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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#721 - 2011-11-15 07:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
The blaster don't have problem

The problem again is not the blaster but the possibility to go in close range with your ship. If you have the possibility to go in close range the blaster are already very good. Don't try to modify the range or falloff.

They are only two thing to do and the blaster will be very popular again.


For the plate remove the mass (new mass 1kg) and put some malus on the shield - 15%
Same for the trimark remove the malus on the agility and put a malus on the shield also.

What happend with this two modifications. The gallente become the second race in term of speed and agility (minmatar first).

Now it's possible to rush you target and use your blaster

That all. Pls CCP try simply this modification and the blaster will be fine
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#722 - 2011-11-15 08:16:57 UTC
The Hook Harbus show ( Big smile ) has been cancelled, and I have a bad feeling about this change.

Let me explain.

What happens if you modify armor plates and trimarks ? What will happen to Minmatar Armor tanked ships ? What will happen to Amarr ships ?

Basically, if you want to cut off some mass on Gallente ships, do it on the ship's hull, not on the plates (Or else it will break the balance with other races who had no problems in the first place).

Same goes for armor rigs. Change their penalties on Gallente ships maybe ? I think "per-race" penalties for rigs would definetly help balancing stuff. You could armor fit a Hurricane, but since armor rigs are supposed to be for another race, you would suffer a little bit more than the other race when it comes to the penalties, for exemple.
AspiB'elt
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#723 - 2011-11-15 08:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: AspiB'elt
SMT008 wrote:
The Hook Harbus show ( Big smile ) has been cancelled, and I have a bad feeling about this change.

Let me explain.

What happens if you modify armor plates and trimarks ? What will happen to Minmatar Armor tanked ships ? What will happen to Amarr ships ?

Basically, if you want to cut off some mass on Gallente ships, do it on the ship's hull, not on the plates (Or else it will break the balance with other races who had no problems in the first place).

Same goes for armor rigs. Change their penalties on Gallente ships maybe ? I think "per-race" penalties for rigs would definetly help balancing stuff. You could armor fit a Hurricane, but since armor rigs are supposed to be for another race, you would suffer a little bit more than the other race when it comes to the penalties, for exemple.


For minmatar amor tanking you decrease the size of the shield and you increase the buffer of the armor ... And where is the problem ? It's a good thing you don't have the double tanking ...

The minmatar are rush team not heavy tanker team.

You need to make a choice and when you are matar you have this choice ?.
But matar prefere to keep the low slot for DPS and medium for tanking, is it?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#724 - 2011-11-15 08:49:33 UTC
Oh, well sorry I though the "shield -15%" meant "put a mass penalty on the shield rigs".

Agreed with this idea then. Armor rigs reduce (It needs to DRASTICALLY REDUCE though, like -20% with a stacking penalty) Shield capacity.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#725 - 2011-11-15 09:09:02 UTC
Imho rails still need buffing,especially tracking.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#726 - 2011-11-15 10:18:45 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
I dont know why people are so pissed.


Because we are not wearing the same rose colored glasses you are. How long have Hybrids been broken? How long has it taken them to admit and change things? Now those changes are what we get and what we should be happy with because thats it for at least another year or two.
Where did he say he was tweaking ships further? I'm pretty sure I would remember that bit of fluff. That 10ms he gave most gallente boats was it.
Long story short... the message (lack of) from CCP Tallest tells me that as far as CCP is concerned, Hybrids and the ships that use them are fixed.
Raven Ether
Doomheim
#727 - 2011-11-15 11:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Raven Ether
Naomi Knight wrote:
Imho rails still need buffing,especially tracking.



Yeah I think that a tiny boost to tracking is needed to bring them more in line.





  • Slight tracking boost to Railguns
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#728 - 2011-11-15 12:27:44 UTC
Quote:
For the plate remove the mass (new mass 1kg) and put some malus on the shield - 15%
Same for the trimark remove the malus on the agility and put a malus on the shield also.

What happend with this two modifications. The gallente become the second race in term of speed and agility (minmatar first).

Now it's possible to rush you target and use your blaster


i highly doubt this would help.
making changes on plates/rigs would influence all the races in the same way - basicly ignoring the problem with hybrids. since all weapon platforms using plates would get the same effect out of this..

the truth is quite simple here:
Quote:
The gallente become the second race in term of speed and agility (minmatar first).


either forget about this so wrong doctrine and make gallente blasterboat fastest OR give blasters better range ability than autocannons. all other options just mess with the game machanics without solving the problem.
u may like it or not but the logic commands:
fast ships -> short weapon range, slow ships -> long weapon range.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#729 - 2011-11-15 12:42:16 UTC
wow this thread is growing like hell... hard to keep up.
but after scanning the new posts, hybrids and their users still need some love.
especially some kind of inherent benefit. so i came up with a wild idea (and i apologize if somebody already posted a similar idea)


how about blaster (or hybrids) don't use cap but actually give back cap for every shot fired (because they use highly charged ammo or whatever-lore). let's say a full rack of blasters, about 4 for small ones, 6 for medium/large give back the amount of cap which an armor repair module of the same size needs to be activated.
combined with a hybrid ammo revamp for more distinguishable ammo and some more love for armortanking(-bonuses on gallente blaster boats), for example armor repair amount and cycletime (which should be around the time of the blaster rof) this should give a nice reason for using blasters (or hybrids if you do the same for rails)
through gaining enough cap for using you tank in neut range and having not to worry about your cap while approaching with mwd or afterburner, blaster and gallente boats which give bonuses to blasters should gain some more attention, especially in small groups and solo-pvp.

your opinions?
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#730 - 2011-11-15 12:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Keen Fallsword
Heh I was on SiSi and testing. All what I can say is "L.O.L"

So called Hybrid re-balancing its just cosmetic if its the last version of hybrids re-balance.

Its SO LOL hahaha Unplayable as it was good that I didn't switched skill training to large hybrids.

Someone is making us idiots.

CCP. Do not dare to add "HYBRID RE-BALANCING" in your marketing materials for upcoming patch coz you will be punish dont ask for that !! Even more players will quit the game !! Really... So many threads about hybrids ppl really want to play Gallente and you CANT TWEAK IT ??? What sort of company are you ? Its unbelievable. As a game developer in real life I CANT understand what are you doing ! unbelievable ....
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#731 - 2011-11-15 12:50:48 UTC
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
wow this thread is growing like hell... hard to keep up.
but after scanning the new posts, hybrids and their users still need some love.
especially some kind of inherent benefit. so i came up with a wild idea (and i apologize if somebody already posted a similar idea)


how about blaster (or hybrids) don't use cap but actually give back cap for every shot fired (because they use highly charged ammo or whatever-lore). let's say a full rack of blasters, about 4 for small ones, 6 for medium/large give back the amount of cap which an armor repair module of the same size needs to be activated.
combined with a hybrid ammo revamp for more distinguishable ammo and some more love for armortanking(-bonuses on gallente blaster boats), for example armor repair amount and cycletime (which should be around the time of the blaster rof) this should give a nice reason for using blasters (or hybrids if you do the same for rails)
through gaining enough cap for using you tank in neut range and having not to worry about your cap while approaching with mwd or afterburner, blaster and gallente boats which give bonuses to blasters should gain some more attention, especially in small groups and solo-pvp.

your opinions?


Dear Man or Woman :)

Please log in to sisi and check what they done.. Its just little bit of tracking , reloading time and some dmg its minor change. Everything that we wrote was useless...
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#732 - 2011-11-15 12:58:32 UTC
Yes - CCP is about 2/3 done with the first part of the hybrid balancing

Once they have looked into a unique role, ammo tweak and as someone mentioned remaining tracking issues on railguns they will havfe to start on the last part = speed balance bwtween gallente/minmatar and armor/shield and how to make caldari hybrid ships usefull and work for pvp with their non existing dps and rarely worthwhile optimal bonus.

Pinky
Allfa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2011-11-15 12:59:37 UTC
As many, many people have said. (including me) ...

Just give Blaster a damage bonus (10% ? ) and put medium webing drones in game (BTW, make sure that gallente are the best able to use them), and done, baster ships can (maybe ) get in range

Give Rails best ROF and tracking, with small/medium dps, and done, a new role, better at fighting smaller ships at range

Simple, and Gallente specific

And to al posters who think that fastest ships + best DPS weapon sistem is a good ideea...why do you all think that blasters boats SHOULD pound they're natural counter, kiters????

Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#734 - 2011-11-15 13:05:53 UTC
Well SiSi is a depressing place to go if you want to check anything to do with gallente improvements, it really is like pissing in the wind so far. The changes are so minimal that in game play terms they go unnoticed except for frigates and they weren't the thing that needed improving.

It does look very pretty now, and warping through planets is a huge improvement for immersion. The stargates seem to be shooting a bit to the left of the star they aim at, but that's a minor irritation.

So CCP, thank you for the eye candy, and no thank you for what you've done to gallente. Unless you pull some miracle alteration to the ammo out of the bag the way you did with projectile ammo then you've completely missed the point about making gallente workable in Eve as it is today. How you could miss that point with all this feedback is beyond me, but CCP Tallest so far is not up to the task. It's a massive shame, you'd built our hopes up, but we're getting no interaction with you at all. After the way the CSM sang your praises I had expected more. Silly me.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#735 - 2011-11-15 13:16:02 UTC
Yeah I can't believe the hybrid rebalance had such a good start with ccp feedback to us players and now it appears to be a dead thread where players yell suggestions to the moon...
Obviously CCP Tallest and crew are busy but patch is coming closer and hybrids is a real emotional subject that deserves a lot of respect and attention to get as fully reworked as possible before patch.

This will enable CCP to complement themself on a good achievement and finally start looking at ship balancing to fully make eve the diverse game it shold be. Ship balancing is so much easier when the weapon systems makes sense.

Pinky
Crias Taylor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#736 - 2011-11-15 13:19:09 UTC
You just still won't see them outside of gates and undocks in high sec still.
Nagarythe Tinurandir
Einheit X-6
Ushra'Khan
#737 - 2011-11-15 13:23:50 UTC
Keen Fallsword wrote:
Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
wow this thread is growing like hell... hard to keep up.
but after scanning the new posts, hybrids and their users still need some love.
especially some kind of inherent benefit. so i came up with a wild idea (and i apologize if somebody already posted a similar idea)


how about blaster (or hybrids) don't use cap but actually give back cap for every shot fired (because they use highly charged ammo or whatever-lore). let's say a full rack of blasters, about 4 for small ones, 6 for medium/large give back the amount of cap which an armor repair module of the same size needs to be activated.
combined with a hybrid ammo revamp for more distinguishable ammo and some more love for armortanking(-bonuses on gallente blaster boats), for example armor repair amount and cycletime (which should be around the time of the blaster rof) this should give a nice reason for using blasters (or hybrids if you do the same for rails)
through gaining enough cap for using you tank in neut range and having not to worry about your cap while approaching with mwd or afterburner, blaster and gallente boats which give bonuses to blasters should gain some more attention, especially in small groups and solo-pvp.

your opinions?


Dear Man or Woman :)

Please log in to sisi and check what they done.. Its just little bit of tracking , reloading time and some dmg its minor change. Everything that we wrote was useless...


i do not have the skills to properly test the new changes, usually people try to shoot me with them ...
i wanted to hear some opinions about my idea, which (combined with some of the other good ideas in this thread) should give blasters/hybrids something that is worth using. what if we figure out something good for fixing the hybrids and push it right into ccp tallest hands, like an email or whatever? devs usually don't linger around in forums anyway...

Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#738 - 2011-11-15 13:28:57 UTC
Please give at least little more boost to hybrids...
Or speed to all hybrid ships...
Please???

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 

Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2011-11-15 15:07:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
Allfa wrote:
As many, many people have said. (including me) ...

Just give Blaster a damage bonus (10% ? ) and put medium webing drones in game (BTW, make sure that gallente are the best able to use them), and done, baster ships can (maybe ) get in range

Give Rails best ROF and tracking, with small/medium dps, and done, a new role, better at fighting smaller ships at range

Simple, and Gallente specific

And to al posters who think that fastest ships + best DPS weapon sistem is a good ideea...why do you all think that blasters boats SHOULD pound they're natural counter, kiters????



Doesn't help much when the drones get popped and you're up **** creek without a paddle, meanwhile you're getting pounded by every laser/barrage fitted ship in the fight while you can't do anything but plod along helplessly. Ewar drone changes are not going to save anyone. If anything, they'll just help kiters even more.

And kiters would be their natural counter, except that it's retardedly easy to kite these days. You don't even have to put speed mods on a Hurricane to kite a Brutix (even a shield one). There doesn't have to be any compromise for the kiting ship, it gets range, damage, and speed with a workable tank, while the blaster ship has to choose between one of the three. It's bad game design and it should have been corrected by now.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#740 - 2011-11-15 15:11:14 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
Emily Poast wrote:
I dont know why people are so pissed.


Because we are not wearing the same rose colored glasses you are. How long have Hybrids been broken? How long has it taken them to admit and change things? Now those changes are what we get and what we should be happy with because thats it for at least another year or two.
Where did he say he was tweaking ships further? I'm pretty sure I would remember that bit of fluff. That 10ms he gave most gallente boats was it.
Long story short... the message (lack of) from CCP Tallest tells me that as far as CCP is concerned, Hybrids and the ships that use them are fixed.


To answer you and Magosian about possible ship changes, I got it from the dev blog. I am on my ipad and cant be bothered to quote the individual parts, but read the first 3 paragraphs and the paragraph underthe 'hybrid turret ships' title. I am reading between the lines, but its pretty clear to me that the turret changes were the first step. If that doesnt fix them, then they are looking at ship fixes (armor tanking issues and other ship bonuses to make hybrids perform better were specific possibilities mentioned). There is just no way (and even if there was, it would have been a bad idea) to change both guns and ships in time for the winter patch.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3012

Look, you are right about the delays,all MMOs are guilty of similar issues, but I honestly believe CCP felt the Incarna 'wallet vote' by the players, and it stung them. Look at the massive amount of changes since that release in a short amount of time. The video blogs, many fixes to ancient annoyances, new ships, etc. I 100% promise you that CEOs dont write letters like the one written by CCP unless some bad juju has gone down. Now, by the spring, if there isnt light at the end of the tunnel for the Gallente players, vote with your wallet again.

So, given his statements in the dev blog and CCP new commitment to 'get back to the ships,' I think the gallente ships are next. I suspect Tallest just didnt come out and say it because he wanted to see how the minor speed and turret changes worked first. He probably also didnt want another threadnaught like this until later. ;)