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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#701 - 2011-11-15 00:25:35 UTC
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Clueless blah blah blah


You clearly don't have a clue about hybrids, hybrid ships, and of course about gallente.



They were total crap from frigs to bs, now they're total crap from cruisers to bs, nice step.

By the way CCP thx for these awesome trails, warp, stars.

About gallente improvements and hybrids? -you clearly failed to understand or do the right thing.
I have good news for you, I'll still be flying Minmatar/Angel over My toon first race and use projectiles over hybrids when I have a lot more skills in hybrids than projectiles.

Thx for this 1st April joke that is "hybrids rebalancing" stuff.
Cunane Jeran
#702 - 2011-11-15 00:26:41 UTC
I'll admit most of my fighting happens on gates, in small gangs, so the speed thing has never been an issue, I've never had to close vast distances and I'm very rarely solo.

Personal preference, AC's are good there is no denying that but they aren't for me, I just prefer blasters and gallente ships, and I love using active armour tanking. Though thinking about it, I don't really have a good reason why blasters should be used over AC's.

How to buff blasters to be on par with AC's without making them AC's, while taking into account Gallente's damage bonus AND Caldari's range bonus. Only real option I can think of is giving them a lot higher Alpha.

I'll man up and say that you guys have made some damn good points here, and I'll admit I've jumped into answers without fully considering all aspects beyond my own limited play experience and thinking how I'd personally use them. I'm wrong on some counts, but I still do believe the Rail changes have gone far enough. Blasters on the other hand yes they need a lot more work.

At the end of the day though I don't want to see a power creep with another FotM until something else gets buffed higher.





Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2011-11-15 00:35:00 UTC
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Personally I've been using hybrids for the last 3 years with no complaints, and yes I can also use t2 projectiles and lasers. I've always preferred hybrids and so that's what I use, going from how they perform on Tranq right now, these changes in my eyes have gone beyond what was needed to bring them into line.


Wait a minute....

You either used hybrids for 3 years with no complaints OR you consider the changes well-received because they needed to be fixed in the first place.

In other words, you contradicted yourself.

Please stop posting here if you're going to continue to be an agitator and not provide any sort of meaningful feedback. We are trying to fix hybrids. That's what this entire thread is about. If you don't think they need more fixing, then there's really no point for you to post here.
Cunane Jeran
#704 - 2011-11-15 00:49:56 UTC
Ha you have caught me out there. Who doesn't want a bit extra to whatever they are using.

As for feedback, I was providing my insights and view on the current changes, it provoked discussion most of it negative yes, but it has further pointed out weaknesses and flaws, and has presented a clear case on more needing to done.

I'll happily admit you folks have got me thinking, and have pointed out many aspects I'd not considered fully and that my point of view when it came to blasters is flawed, and more importantly that I was wrong.

Now lets put flaming the hell out of me to one side (though I'm sure it's fun)


So what can be done? without making them AC clones. Again only thing I can think of is ramping up the alpha. Unless you wanted to rework all the Caldari/Gallente ship bonuses and take a look at the Minmatar as well.

And I'll maintain that fitting they are now fine, and open up a lot of new options and that ammo never really being a problem expect for the tech two stuff.



Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#705 - 2011-11-15 00:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesor
There is nothing left to say. Tallest made his tweak. He provided no explanations or feedback. Discussing Hybrids is no longer worthwhile.
Maksim Cammeren
Taxless Corp
#706 - 2011-11-15 00:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Maksim Cammeren
Ok, you can't say this:

Tanya Powers wrote:
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Clueless blah blah blah


You clearly don't have a clue about hybrids, hybrid ships, and of course about gallente.


if you follow it by:

Tanya Powers wrote:

They were total crap from frigs to bs, now they're total crap from cruisers to bs, nice step.


Hybrids were highly competitive in the frig arena before this patch and don't need more boosts. This includes the Gallente, Caldari, as well as the pirate hybrid platforms.

However, as a Caldari hybrid user, I can confirm that for cruiser and above they were mostly limited to the PvE arena. I am not sure whether the current buffs are sufficient to make them a good weapon for existing ships, it will take a lot more than cursory testing to know for sure, maybe they will find a niche role in fleet engagements. At least it looks like the Naga will turn out to be a viable weapons platform.

There have been many interesting (at varying levels of practicality) suggestions in this thread on how to improve the ability of blaster ships to catch up to their targets. I hope that the devs seriously think through some of them and decide if they would be desirable/practical to implement.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#707 - 2011-11-15 01:09:18 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
There is nothing left to say. Tallest made his tweak. He provided no explanations or feedback. Discussing Hybrids is no longer worthwhile.


more like Failest.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#708 - 2011-11-15 02:06:33 UTC
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
I hope that the devs seriously think through some of them and decide if they would be desirable/practical to implement.


Tell you what, you can keep your hope in your left hand... and stick the right out the window and wait for the birds to fill it with droppings and see which one is filled first. I'm betting on the right.
Zircon Dasher
#709 - 2011-11-15 02:15:27 UTC
Reading this thread has been a daily source of deja vu. I couldn't put my finger on why until just now: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1184365

First 15 posts pretty much sum up the first 50 pages.... but things really start to get good between pg 80 and 85. lol

The best part is how many people were saying how it was such a shitBoost, and how matar would still be worthless after the patch.

But the same thing happened during the amarr boost so....... I am predicting hybrids will be considered OP in 8mo. :))

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#710 - 2011-11-15 03:01:30 UTC
Not really. The boost is not near what it should be. Does not make it worth it at all to use blasters still.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#711 - 2011-11-15 03:01:39 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:

The best part is how many people were saying how it was such a shitBoost, and how matar would still be worthless after the patch.

But the same thing happened during the amarr boost so....... I am predicting hybrids will be considered OP in 8mo. :))


The difference being that their changes actually put them in range of the target. We are hindered by previous nerfs and changes starting with and not limited to, Webber nerfs, Armor rigging changes, speed nerfs, agility nerfs, the projectile buff and the laser buff, and the EANM nerf. All of them make us slower, less survivable and less able to project damage. 5 percent here 10 ms there is doing jack all to help the core issue.
GET US IN RANGE Tallest or your changes mean nothing.


Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#712 - 2011-11-15 04:08:23 UTC
Current fix won't cut it.

Here are my solutions:

The problem stems from the fastest, most agile race ALSO having the best ability to maintain a variety of range and keep DPS on a target.

There are two ways to correct this, and they must be followed closely:
1) Make Gallente the fastest race, with Minmatar being the most agile.
This makes Gallente terrifying when they are sprinting at you, and the Minmatar must use their manueverability to their advantage, while the Gallente ships are sprinting like a bull at a matador.

-or-

2) Make Gallente the falloff race, with a small buff to optimal. Projectiles will have to be retooled to having almost non-existent falloff.
This makes it so the Gallente will remain slower than the Minmatar AND less agile, but their falloff will still hit into the Minmatar ships regardless.
For example: Heavy Neutron Blaster II should hit 6km optimal with 8km falloff. 425mm Auto cannons should have 10km optimal with 1km falloff. This would force them into a very narrow gap to maintain damage on target, but since they are fast and agile, they are better equipped for this purpose.

With Gallente now having the closest range weapons by optimal, they will still be terrifying to get close to, as it should be, with Minmatar remaining the quick, agile race with a specific range they must maintain to be effective, and Amarr remaining the longest overall range.

In addition, these changes would also have to be brought into being, for the sake of tank balance:
Armor Rigs must only affect agility, not both agility AND speed.
Plates must follow these same rules.
Hybrid reload should be 5s, as it is a hybrid between laser and auto-cannons, it should have a mix between 10s and no reload.
Astronautic Rigs should affect shield HP, as no speed tank should have both speed and any form of HP as a "tank," and speed/agility modifiers already take up low slots, compromising armor tanking. It shouldn't be "speed and shield tank" it should be "speed or HP tank"

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!

Dro Nee
#713 - 2011-11-15 04:22:40 UTC
Nemesor wrote:
The difference being that their changes actually put them in range of the target. We are hindered by previous nerfs and changes starting with and not limited to, Webber nerfs, Armor rigging changes, speed nerfs, agility nerfs, the projectile buff and the laser buff, and the EANM nerf. All of them make us slower, less survivable and less able to project damage. 5 percent here 10 ms there is doing jack all to help the core issue.
GET US IN RANGE Tallest or your changes mean nothing.


The problem with your "too many nerfs" argument is that you could undo all those nerfs (web, speed, etc) and blaster boats would still not be the go-to ship for anything.

-- Blaster boats were never that wonderful during the nano-age. Sure nano-Ishtars were passable, and a good ranis pilot could nab an average crow pilot, but they were never kings of the hill. Diemost was the die-most even then.

-- The fitting saavy of players is much higher now. Undoing the nerfs you mention would not result in a 'rax being nearly as viable as it once was because people wouldnt necessarily go back to fitting plate ruppies with d180's. There has been a fundamental shift in the way people approach fights.

-- There has also been an uptick in the use of performance enhancing items/alts. What was an inconsequential difference back in the day, is commonly magnified to significant in todays fights. Yes, gang-links/implants/drugs have been around for a long time, but "average joe" players use them much much more.

The problem is not in the nerfs that have come about, but rather the fact that really short range and really long range fighting is not considered common or viable. The vast majority of fights now take place in a compressed band, and anything that doesnt fight there is not optimal (and if it isnt optimal it isnt used).

Your "GET US IN RANGE" plea might put a band-aid on blasters, but it doesnt fix the underlying issue of homogenization of the battlefield. If CCP actually addresses the things that are causing that, then the boost you ask for only serves to make hybrid boats the only boats worth flying later.

IMO the changes in place on SISare decent (not exactly what I would have chosen but meh). Do I think they will make blasterboats common? No. But I would rather take a smaller buff now then have to get nerfed (or keep up the power creep ideology) once CCP actually gets around to fixing those mechanics which are truely the problem? Yes.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#714 - 2011-11-15 04:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Dro Nee wrote:
Do I think they will make blasterboats common? No.


If the answer to your question is no, aren't you really just saying you believe these changes will not be successful?

I'm not asking for hybrids to dominate the battlefield, but it would be nice if hybrids presented enough usability to compose roughly a quarter of ships from any random pvp engagement. I think you and I can both realistically say it's well below 10%, maybe even below 5%. That's pathetic.
Dro Nee
#715 - 2011-11-15 05:31:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dro Nee
Magosian wrote:
Dro Nee wrote:
Do I think they will make blasterboats common? No.


If the answer to your question is no, aren't you really just saying you believe these changes will not be successful?

I'm not asking for hybrids to dominate the battlefield, but it would be nice if hybrids presented enough usability to compose roughly a quarter of ships from any random pvp engagement. I think you and I can both realistically say it's well below 10%, maybe even below 5%. That's pathetic.


I think the changes will be successful at putting blaster boats back onto solid footing in the engagements and ranges they are supposed to shine in. Something that they have lacked.

Usage statistics are a pretty ****-poor method of evaluating the quality of a product because there are too many variables outside the focal point that can skew interpretation. It always derails the thread and you wind up with (another) 30 pages about nothing to do with the real problems at hand.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#716 - 2011-11-15 05:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Dro Nee wrote:
Magosian wrote:
Dro Nee wrote:
Do I think they will make blasterboats common? No.


If the answer to your question is no, aren't you really just saying you believe these changes will not be successful?

I'm not asking for hybrids to dominate the battlefield, but it would be nice if hybrids presented enough usability to compose roughly a quarter of ships from any random pvp engagement. I think you and I can both realistically say it's well below 10%, maybe even below 5%. That's pathetic.


I think the changes will be successful at putting blaster boats back onto solid footing in the engagements and ranges they are supposed to shine in. Something that they have lacked.

Usage statistics are a pretty ****-poor method of evaluating the quality of a product, so I will not even bother with the rest of your post.


Heh, I'm not trying to make it personal. I think the popularity of canes in skirmish PvP and Sleipnirs in the last alliance tournament speaks for itself. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

EDIT: Jesus, how could I forget rifters and vagabonds....?
Dro Nee
#717 - 2011-11-15 06:21:58 UTC
Yeah it sounded snottier than I meant. Fixed.
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#718 - 2011-11-15 06:44:03 UTC
I dont know why people are so pissed. The chages so far, while not the ultimate solution, are pretty damn good.

Clearly they arent looking to chage hybrids roles and/or make them mimic lasers/projectiles. These chages going live are a boost to their current roles. Ill take it - given that he said gallente ship tweaks are next. That is where the big canges will come from - the ship bonuses.

This is the right way to do it. Change guns first, see how they play. Once you have an idea on where the failures are, fix those holes with ship tweaks and bonuses. Doing it any other way will introduce too many variables that cant be evaluated properly.

Said another way -given these changes are slight, it suggests to me that we are going to get some pretty significant ship changes soon.

My predictioms for simple change we might see:

Most gal ships get larger utility space fo an extra flight of drones
Myrm and Eos get boosted bandwidth.
Active tavking cycles will be tweaked. Gallente in general will get some kind of tweak so we use our armor and structure better.
Perhaps the return of thr long web for certain ships.
I also think blaster ships at least should get some kind of overheat bonus for durqation andor module done. That wouls indirectly boost many things:damage, speed, tank, tackle, etc. That is a sship bonus that would be easy to fix,

Regardless, the changes need to ship-specific, and SIMPLE to code. The treatises here are mostly unrealistic because of their length.

Just my opinion.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#719 - 2011-11-15 06:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Torei Dutalis
At this point we're just beating a dead (insert animal of choice). Just eat the nice carrot and be happy (it's not drugged).
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#720 - 2011-11-15 06:54:26 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Clearly they arent looking to chage hybrids roles and/or make them mimic lasers/projectiles. These chages going live are a boost to their current roles. Ill take it - given that he said gallente ship tweaks are next. That is where the big canges will come from - the ship bonuses.


Hrm, got a link where he said this? I suppose I just saw the agi/spd increases and figured that was it. If this is really true, maybe I should lay off a bit.