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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#781 - 2011-11-15 22:58:08 UTC
Magosian wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
I can fly anything. I can use every weapon system in the game to its fullest potential.

Think on this for a moment. If you total up all the crap PVP platforms in the game... you are looking at about 1/3 of all ships being downright useless. At least another 1/3 are situational. Thats 2/3s of the ships available to fly that are suboptimal or downright deathtraps.

That is not variety. That is not balance.

I want to fly spaceships. I want variety. I want to pew.

You can take that "I win" button you think I want and stick it somewhere uncomfortable.



So 1/3 of ships are fine generally, 1/3 of ships are fine situationally.

So 2/3 of ships are worth flying depending on the situations you find yourself in?



I think the point still has merit. For a game which is largely based on PvP, roughly one third of their ships not providing any real PvP use is a pretty staggering statistic. Most of that third is Caldari/Gallente, too, I would add.



All the more reason for tiericide. There's really only one, or in some cases two, T1 frigates that are viable for each race.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#782 - 2011-11-15 22:58:16 UTC
Caldari frigates are actually very good.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#783 - 2011-11-15 23:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
I found a funny quote Lol


Quote:
"There are 3 good dictors...... and the Eris"

taken from a howto manual about interdictors
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#784 - 2011-11-15 23:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
Magosian wrote:

That's why I say hybrids, as a whole, are fine after the proposed changes. They are trying to put hybrids more midway of lasers and projectiles. The changes in reload time, ammo size, blaster damage increase and rails tracking increase point at that direction.

No, they absolutely do not point in that direction. Just because 5 seconds is between 10 seconds and 0 seconds doesn't mean hybrids are "between" lasers and projectiles. What does it even mean to be "between" them anyway?


What I meant by between is:
* By dropping the reload time, changing ammo is a more viable tactic than with projectiles, but it's still not instantaneous as crystals. While I see how this works for rails, won't affect blasters.
* By dropping the reload time you also increase the DPS in long engagements. Again, this affects more rails than blasters since blaster boats are less prone to survive enough for this to matter.
* By decreasing ammo size, you are less limited in ammo in long engagements than projectiles or leave more space for cap boosters like crystals. Again, won't matter much for blaster boats since you die before you need more ammo or booster charges.

That's why I feel they fixed rails more than blasters with the proposed changes, since blasters will still have no inherent advantage, neither the boats give useful bonuses to allow blasters to be fully used. But I don't think that's fixable giving blasters more damage or optimal better than rethinking Gallente ship bonuses.

Magosian wrote:

Besides, how do you propose hybrids get fixed? You're awfully quick to say "you don't know what you're talking about" yet have yet to provide a single constructive statement. Now's the time....


I won't use the word hybrids as a whole. Just because they use the same ammo doesn't mean blasters and rails suck the same way, so there isn't one big solution that addresses everything.

I believe it's more a matter of fixing the ships that use blasters to fix blasters, and the mechanics of long-range combat to fix rails. The fact they suck today is a just a reflex of most encounters happening at the more comfortable ranges of projectiles and lasers, while extremely close range and extremely long range are inexistent for a variety of reasons (propulsion jammers, slow blaster boats, warp to 0, fixed warp range of 150km, etc.).

For blasters some sort of speed bonus to Gallente is needed, so they don't start the fight at a disadvantage by losing 50% armor before hitting the first shot. There are good ideas on this thread about MWD bonuses or overheat bonuses that would make Gallente fun again.

For rails, is more complicated to further balance, I believe. They could improve alpha, but then it looks too much like artillery. Maybe warp distance can be rethought and tracking can have a bigger buff (7.5%? 10%?) so rails still don't out damage artillery, but at least are more useful at medium ranges.

Effectively, game mechanics are broken, not hybrids stats. Either they fix the game mechanics, or they level hybrids stats to be closer to projectiles and lasers. I think the latter is a pretty boring solution, and I doubt CCP will adopt it since it clashes with the original concepts.
Zircon Dasher
#785 - 2011-11-15 23:12:55 UTC
Zirse wrote:
Magosian wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Nemesor wrote:
I can fly anything. I can use every weapon system in the game to its fullest potential.

Think on this for a moment. If you total up all the crap PVP platforms in the game... you are looking at about 1/3 of all ships being downright useless. At least another 1/3 are situational. Thats 2/3s of the ships available to fly that are suboptimal or downright deathtraps.

That is not variety. That is not balance.

I want to fly spaceships. I want variety. I want to pew.

You can take that "I win" button you think I want and stick it somewhere uncomfortable.



So 1/3 of ships are fine generally, 1/3 of ships are fine situationally.

So 2/3 of ships are worth flying depending on the situations you find yourself in?



I think the point still has merit. For a game which is largely based on PvP, roughly one third of their ships not providing any real PvP use is a pretty staggering statistic. Most of that third is Caldari/Gallente, too, I would add.



All the more reason for tiericide. There's really only one, or in some cases two, T1 frigates that are viable for each race.



Not too mention the cruisers, indys, and barges

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Zircon Dasher
#786 - 2011-11-15 23:17:27 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Caldari frigates are actually very good.


Shush you.

The revolution is not supposed to be televised.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Maxsim Goratiev
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#787 - 2011-11-15 23:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev
thoth rothschild wrote:
Minmatar ships outperform blasters in their natural habitat,

This is the problem. I find this most insulting to me as a Gallentean. After al lthe trouble with limited range, ammo, fitting and cap, when I have the target pinned I am not performing any better than the guy that didn;t bother in the first place.
Tallest added 5% to blaster damage. 5% is not going to change a game. We quite simply ned more than that. Smae goes for bonus to rail tracking.

Quote:
Think on this for a moment. If you total up all the crap PVP platforms in the game... you are looking at about 1/3 of all ships being downright useless. At least another 1/3 are situational. Thats 2/3s of the ships available to fly that are suboptimal or downright deathtraps.

That is a valid point, but many ships have uces outside of pvp, namely missions. That is still a combat ship but it's geared towards a different area of the game.

With current changes on TQ, most gallente ships became more workable, but i till feel disadvantaged sompared to most other races.

Thank CCP for de-facto buffing drone-ships (even if only so little) by intorducing t2 drone modules. Droneships are the only ships in gallente lineup that currently present a rael threat on the field to just about everything.

So currently: blasters require more damage and some more tracking. They also need some help getting in range.

One way would be to acieve this make gallente dualtank race most of its problems would-be solved: Blasterships shieldtanked and droneships armourtanked. If minmatar can have two tanks, so can we.

Second way to do this is to introduce actually usefull webbing and sensor dampening drones.
javascript:__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','')
Third way to do this is to give gallente a reduction to the mass penalty applied by plates and change the penalty of trimarks to reduction in shield or something.

Fourth way to do this is to give us a bonus to MWD and AB overload or an overpowered prop module.

Fifth way to achieve this is to give Gallente so much fitting room that they can negate these disadvantages by fitting a lot of extra supportive modules (tracking enhancers, e-war, tank, cap, you name it)to compensate for these handycaps

Choose your poison.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#788 - 2011-11-15 23:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
One problem get's bigger and bigger each day.

Why do i fight for better Gallentean ships and why do i hurt myself so much to discuss it in endless threats without any blue response. I could life with a negative response but this is really exhausting. Why don't i polish my beloved legion.
My motivation to fight for this cause is decreasing really fast.

Just a last word.
Change the Eris, Eos and Deimos. Plz! They are the symbol of this fight and why we fight. They are , strange.
Eos a droneboat not able to fit drones.
Eris, see my quote some posts above.
Deimos, paperthin without speed and damage and power and utility and a role.


Best gallentean ships you ever designed were phobos, taranis and adrestia.
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#789 - 2011-11-15 23:32:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
Maxsim Goratiev wrote:

Fourth way to do this is to give us a bonus to MWD and AB overload or an overpowered prop module.


I really think that's the most viable solution, since it doesn't disfigures Gallente as armor tankers, neither gives an advantage to the drone boats (which aren't broken at the same level now).
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#790 - 2011-11-16 00:13:45 UTC
Just found the list of changes going into Crucible, posting here since it's different than the ones mentioned on Tallest first post:

http://www.eveonline.com/en/crucible/article/3033/hybrid-weapons-and-tech-ii-ammo-balancing

Quote:

Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:
XL Turrets: -5 CPU
L Turrets: -3 CPU
M Turrets: -2 CPU
S Turrets: -1 CPU

** Exception: 75mm Railguns (they already have very low CPU requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.
** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)

All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier

** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#791 - 2011-11-16 00:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
Phobos kinda sucks. Would be better if it had more grid, could fit 200mm rails with dual 1600mm plates or something. Right now it's in last place interms of stats/reasons to fly. Personally, I fly it only because of the way it looks.

Also, did no one else see the irony of the 4th mid on a cruiser thorax hull going to the ship with high slot point... Potentially the worst dev troll in the games history IMO. Lol

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Emily Poast
The Whipping Post
#792 - 2011-11-16 01:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Emily Poast
Imrik86 wrote:
Just found the list of changes going into Crucible, posting here since it's different than the ones mentioned on Tallest first post:

http://www.eveonline.com/en/crucible/article/3033/hybrid-weapons-and-tech-ii-ammo-balancing

Quote:

Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:
XL Turrets: -5 CPU
L Turrets: -3 CPU
M Turrets: -2 CPU
S Turrets: -1 CPU

** Exception: 75mm Railguns (they already have very low CPU requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.
** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)

All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier

** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)



If you dont count sniper BS from my 0.0 days, about 80% of my fleet are gallente blaster ships. They all just got a bit better. Its not a solution, but its a start.
Rawls Canardly
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#793 - 2011-11-16 01:16:25 UTC
Emily Poast wrote:
Imrik86 wrote:
Just found the list of changes going into Crucible, posting here since it's different than the ones mentioned on Tallest first post:

http://www.eveonline.com/en/crucible/article/3033/hybrid-weapons-and-tech-ii-ammo-balancing

Quote:

Hybrid Turrets

Reduce CPU usage:
XL Turrets: -5 CPU
L Turrets: -3 CPU
M Turrets: -2 CPU
S Turrets: -1 CPU

** Exception: 75mm Railguns (they already have very low CPU requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.
** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)

All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)

All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier

** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)



If you dont count sniper BS from my 0.0 days, about 80% of my fleet are gallente blaster ships. They all just got a bit better. Its not a solution, but its a start.

That's the problem, however. CCP starts things but seldom finishes them. (Incarna, Soverignty, FW, etc.)
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#794 - 2011-11-16 01:46:42 UTC
Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 54822
2 Hurricane 47905
3 Abaddon 34259
4 Armageddon 21631
5 Zealot 15305
6 Tempest 13981
7 Maelstrom 13797
8 Dramiel 13186
9 Rifter 10627
10 Cynabal 9963
11 Sabre 9563
12 Rapier 8719
13 Scimitar 8496
14 Tengu 8312
15 Hound 8265
16 Vagabond 7737
17 Manticore 7276
18 Loki 7110
19 Harbinger 6001
20 Capsule 5365

Today in the top twenty we have:
3 Caldari
10 Minmatar
4 Amarr
2 Angel

0 Gallente

Anyone see that changing with the current set of fixes on SISI?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#795 - 2011-11-16 02:40:01 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
I found a funny quote Lol


Quote:
"There are 3 good dictors...... and the Eris"

taken from a howto manual about interdictors


HAHA !!! LOL :) Yeah this is good :) And sooo true :) LOL good one :)
Zircon Dasher
#796 - 2011-11-16 02:48:43 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 54822
2 Hurricane 47905
3 Abaddon 34259
4 Armageddon 21631
5 Zealot 15305
6 Tempest 13981
7 Maelstrom 13797
8 Dramiel 13186
9 Rifter 10627
10 Cynabal 9963
11 Sabre 9563
12 Rapier 8719
13 Scimitar 8496
14 Tengu 8312
15 Hound 8265
16 Vagabond 7737
17 Manticore 7276
18 Loki 7110
19 Harbinger 6001
20 Capsule 5365

Today in the top twenty we have:
3 Caldari
10 Minmatar
4 Amarr
2 Angel

0 Gallente

Anyone see that changing with the current set of fixes on SISI?


Such incontrovertable statistics are PROOF that Gurrrrrrrr-ista, Gallente, Blood Raiders, Serpentis, ORE, Angel, Caldari and Amarr need serious buffs. Variety is the spice of life.

THE SPICE MUST FLOW!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Keen Fallsword
Skyway Patrol
#797 - 2011-11-16 02:53:13 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Rank Ships Kills
1 Drake 54822
2 Hurricane 47905
3 Abaddon 34259
4 Armageddon 21631
5 Zealot 15305
6 Tempest 13981
7 Maelstrom 13797
8 Dramiel 13186
9 Rifter 10627
10 Cynabal 9963
11 Sabre 9563
12 Rapier 8719
13 Scimitar 8496
14 Tengu 8312
15 Hound 8265
16 Vagabond 7737
17 Manticore 7276
18 Loki 7110
19 Harbinger 6001
20 Capsule 5365

Today in the top twenty we have:
3 Caldari
10 Minmatar
4 Amarr
2 Angel

0 Gallente

Anyone see that changing with the current set of fixes on SISI?


No :) Gallente is so passe. I was on SiSi and testing fits for over 3 hours and its better for sure but in Large blasters and rails. You can see the difference coz now rails and blaster can DO any DMG what is nice. but Middle level is not so "great". And middle level is FUN that's why we should cry. My Ally is not using Gallente ships just Lachesis and arazu and maybe taranis and thats all. And of coz CAPS thany and nyx.

But I think that PVE guys will be really happy with this patch. Better tracking and fitting "stable" megathron etc. For sure Gallente are better for ratting now.. thats for sure. and for sure we will see some Vindicators on Tournament :)

I think that game mechanics NOT WORKS with gallente and wont be. Speed is everything in EVE so there is only one winner. Gallente as Armor race is too slow... if you want to play Gallente go to CAPS lvl.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#798 - 2011-11-16 03:04:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
It's not so much speed, but survival. 2 out of the top 3 are build not around being really fast, but around having a great tank, and then again you have the cane with all its power grid capable of fitting a really decent dual plate fit or lse with neuts.

There is 0 viable survival stratergy for Gallente these days, and that's a problem. The EHP disadvantage many gallente ships have isn't evened out by many advantages that don't realistically work in the game.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#799 - 2011-11-16 03:11:14 UTC
CCP Tallest, I know your busy but it would be great if you could answer a few questions:

What have you ruled out? Had a look at implementing but have decided, no, that can't work (eg common player ideas)

Are you satisfied with what you have proposed so far?

Still considering laying down the law on projectiles and lasers (with massive tracking reductions)?

Do you feel that the existential problems surrounding gallente (active tanking, medium > short range, armour vs shield tanking) are fixible? And if so, are they priorities or even many something we'd see in acted upon during winter?

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
erfta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#800 - 2011-11-16 03:22:44 UTC
Imrik86 wrote:
Just found the list of changes going into Crucible, posting here since it's different than the ones mentioned on Tallest first post:

.... blah ...blah... first wave changes

did you quote the dev blog about the original changes in the thread about supplemental changes.
my eye might just roll out of my skull.

no one reads the TOS not even the guy that writes it. this is sig worthy http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/09/mortal-online-plagiarizes-eve-onlines-terms-of-service/1#c35015206