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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
CCP Tallest
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2011-11-04 11:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Goliath
Greetings

Please post your feedback about hybrid turret balancing in this thread.

Thanks.
Your Tallest.

update (23/11/11): Final list of hybrid changes for the Crucible expansion.

Hybrid Turrets

* XL Turrets: -5 CPU
* L Turrets: -3 CPU
* M Turrets: -2 CPU
* S Turrets: -1 CPU
** Exception: 75mm Railguns (they already have very low CPU requirements.)

* All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number.
** Exceptions: Light Electron Blasters, Light Ion Blasters, 125mm Railguns, 75mm Railguns (they already have very low Powergrid requirements.)

* All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use

* All hybrid turrets: 5 second reload time

* All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)
* All blaster turrets: + 5% to Damage modifier
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good tracking when compared to other XL turrets)

* All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)
* All railgun turrets: +5% to Tracking speed
** Exception: XL turrets (they already have good damage when compared to other XL turrets)

Ships

* Max Velocity +10 on the following ships:
** Arazu, Astarte, Brutix, Catalyst, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Enyo, Eos, Falcon, Guardian-Vexor, Helios, Incursus, Ishtar, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant

* Max Velocity +5 on the following ships:
** Cormorant, Federation Navy Comet, Hyperion, Kronos, Sin, Vindicator

* Inertia Modifier -5% on the following ships:
** Adrestia, Arazu, Ares, Astarte, Atron, Brutix, Catalyst, Celestis, Cormorant, Daredevil, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Eris, Exequror Navy Issue, Falcon, Federation Navy Comet, Ferox, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Helios, Hyperion, Incursus, Ishkur, Ishtar, Kronos, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Merlin, Moa, Phobos, Raptor, Rokh, Sin, Taranis, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant, Vindicator, Vulture

Ammo

* All hybrid ammo: 50% smaller volume (and hybrid turret capacity reduced to keep same number of charges)
* Javelin (all sizes): Removed cap penalty
* Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus
* Hail (all sizes): Reduced falloff penalty from 50% to 25%

[b]★ EVE Game Designer ★ ♥ Team Super Friends ♥[/b]

To mare
Advanced Technology
#2 - 2011-11-04 13:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: To mare
remove the tracking pnalty from void (or the falloff) and they are fine
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#3 - 2011-11-04 13:29:27 UTC
To mare wrote:
remove the tracking pnalty from void (or the falloff) and they are fine


I agree or you better make the void ammo dish out way more damage to make it worth getting 2km from your target.
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#4 - 2011-11-04 13:54:52 UTC
Every Caldari hybrid ship needs a look. (more drones, more speed)

Every Gallente ship with an active tanking bonus needs a change also (though not necessarily the tanking bonus)

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2011-11-04 14:46:59 UTC
please remove speed penalties from armor rigs, or just make Gall ships shield-tankers.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#6 - 2011-11-04 14:55:37 UTC
Give the optimal range bonus on caldari hulls a rethink, such as adding a 5 or 10% falloff bonus on top of it.
Given the nature of hybrid ammo ( high damage, optimal debuff) and blaster turrets ( almost equal optimal and falloff ) the inherent range advantage shrinks to a basically unnoticable distance.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2011-11-04 15:03:12 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Give the optimal range bonus on caldari hulls a rethink, such as adding a 5 or 10% falloff bonus on top of it.
Given the nature of hybrid ammo ( high damage, optimal debuff) and blaster turrets ( almost equal optimal and falloff ) the inherent range advantage shrinks to a basically unnoticable distance.



because there's no way a blaster boat can get into range before getting shredded by AC's or pulses. we're back at square one really.

rails need more damage and tracking as well. (or fix the ship bonuses)
Bomberlocks
Bombercorp
#8 - 2011-11-04 15:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bomberlocks
Tallest, the problems of blasters are that the small blasters are fine and were even not too bad before these proposed changes, but that medium and large blasters need more damage to compensate for their lack of tank and speed. In stead of changing the blaster s again, why not add some range to null and some damage to medium and large antimatter ammo.

The Deimos, Brutix and Thorax all suffer compared to their Minmatar cousins (somehow no one is noticing that Amarr cruisers are even worse off, except for the Arbitrator and Zealot)


Medium Antimatter: 10% extra damage
Medium Null: 10% extra falloff

Large Antimatter: 5% extra damage
Large Null: 5% extra falloff
Harotak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2011-11-04 15:55:41 UTC
Additional changes I want;

Small Blasters +5% DMG
Medium Blasters + 15% DMG
Large Blasters +10% DMG
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2011-11-04 15:58:51 UTC
Harotak wrote:
Additional changes I want;

Small Blasters +5% DMG
Medium Blasters + 15% DMG
Large Blasters +10% DMG


pointless. need range through ship bonuses or a huge Null buff.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#11 - 2011-11-04 15:58:59 UTC
I posted my thoughts in response to the hybrid rebalance in a different thread, so please refer to that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=290102#post290102

Some other things:
- The damage difference between the 2nd and 3rd tier railguns is too small. Give the 150, 250 and 425mm rails a bit more damage, to make them a worthy step up from the 120, 200 and 350mm calibres.

A few things about ammo:
- Null ammo needs +50% for both optimal and falloff. Barrage gives a 50% falloff bonus, and Scorch gives 50% extra to range. Blasters depend on both range and falloff, so Null ought to give a 50% bonus for both, to help truly address the range issues of blasters.
- Significantly increase base damage for Antimatter, Void and Javelin. This would make blasters truly melt face at close range. Railguns would be more viable for mid-range engagements, where their counterparts are actually pulse lasers and autocannons with long-range ammo.
- Simplify the ammo types. There's too much granularity of range at present. Instead, make hybrid ammo more like projectile ammo, so different ammo types have different balances of thermal and kinetic damage, such as 20/80, 50/50 and 80/20.
Harotak
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2011-11-04 16:08:21 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Harotak wrote:
Additional changes I want;

Small Blasters +5% DMG
Medium Blasters + 15% DMG
Large Blasters +10% DMG


pointless. need range through ship bonuses or a huge Null buff.


Change Null, Barrage, and Scorch to +50% optimal and falloff.
Cunane Jeran
#13 - 2011-11-04 16:08:33 UTC
Fitting wise, they are a dream. Excellent work

Rails are great, when used in conjunction with tracking mods
Blasters are fine, but a little extra damage would go amiss

For those saying change it to shield, Do you really want to have to try getting a Booster/MWD/Tackle/Tank on 6 slots. Please think about it. Armour works damn well. Maybe a little more speed would be nice, but it's definitely the way forwards
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
#14 - 2011-11-04 16:16:43 UTC
I like the changes so far for hybrids but still lacks that 1 special sauce. If I'm flying with lazors i'm almost certainly using scorch. Scorch rocks. If I'm flying with projectiles im flying with barrage. If im flying with torps, with the new buffs, I'm flying with rage torps.

Null or void just isn't really that special.

-5 second reload time could be a small differentiation. Could even make this a skill. 1second per level.. considering how rapid firing level 4 or 5 is for projetiles only.

-Null be nerfed for a short range, very high tracking would make the orbit @ 500 strats that much better.

-void penalties make it only usable on the 90% web ships.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2011-11-04 16:39:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
I posted my thoughts in response to the hybrid rebalance in a different thread, so please refer to that: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=290102#post290102

Some other things:
- The damage difference between the 2nd and 3rd tier railguns is too small. Give the 150, 250 and 425mm rails a bit more damage, to make them a worthy step up from the 120, 200 and 350mm calibres.

A few things about ammo:
- Null ammo needs +50% for both optimal and falloff. Barrage gives a 50% falloff bonus, and Scorch gives 50% extra to range. Blasters depend on both range and falloff, so Null ought to give a 50% bonus for both, to help truly address the range issues of blasters.
- Significantly increase base damage for Antimatter, Void and Javelin. This would make blasters truly melt face at close range. Railguns would be more viable for mid-range engagements, where their counterparts are actually pulse lasers and autocannons with long-range ammo.
- Simplify the ammo types. There's too much granularity of range at present. Instead, make hybrid ammo more like projectile ammo, so different ammo types have different balances of thermal and kinetic damage, such as 20/80, 50/50 and 80/20.



i wholeheartedly support this. Tallest, you guys could resolve a LOT of issues by buffing hybrid ammo in this way. take this guy's suggestions into account. honestly, i think it's the best idea on these forums right now.
Kiev Duran
Ambition Unlimited
#16 - 2011-11-04 17:03:05 UTC
I'm going to take this opportunity to quote myself from the other thread.

Kiev Duran wrote:
While most people see these changes as a Gallente boost, let's not forget that Caldari use hybrids and could use a little love too.

The role that CCP seems to have envisioned for Caldari ships does not exist.

The Caldari, based on most ship bonuses, are put into the "medium damage from extreme range" role. A role that no longer truly exists on any level of play. This does not just affect railguns, but missiles also. However, I'll focus on hybrids as they are the focus of of this thread and devblog.

Extreme ranges are usually considered 150 - 250 km out, and the Caldari have several ships that can, in theory, reach out and touch someone from those ranges. The real question is why would you want to do this. Considering the simple facts that not everyone flies or enjoys flying Caldari means that several people in any sufficiently large fleet will not be able to shoot from more than about 100 - 120 km. The fleet's optimal range is only as long as the member with the shortest optimal range. This means that any Caldari pilots will be forced to fit for shooting at literally half of their optimals. This means that Caldari could potentially choose a new ammo so that he'd do more damage, but in many cases this can actually lead to a damage reduction or an insignificant increase in DPS (if not using faction ammo) as spike does do significant damage for it's range bonus. Furthermore, at any ranges exceeding the warp range, it is no trouble at all for a covert ops to place himself where the enemy fleet can simply warp to their optimals. With the changes to scanning, this can take any organized fleet as few as about 12 to 13 seconds.

In smaller scale and solo stuff long range just doesn't work because of the range of warp disruptors and scramblers.

The extreme range role simply doesn't (and perhaps cannot) exist
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#17 - 2011-11-04 17:47:21 UTC
i can still scan someone down in 8 seconds snippings is still useless... change the optimal range bonus for a fate of fire bonus ...

its great that blasters have good dps but thats not enough to warrent using them at such a low range limitagions we needs a massive alpha boost to make them worht while...

the tanking bonus on gal ships needs to either boosteed or changed to a armour amount per lev... that way you wont have to fit trimarks or 1600's if you want to be fast and have an armor tank.

the mrym needs 100mn band withdth to be usefull 3 heavy drones is not enough for a bc...

change the trimakrs to agility nerf from speed...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2011-11-04 18:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Hungry Eyes wrote:
please remove speed penalties from armor rigs, or just make Gall ships shield-tankers.


Disagree. Make the speed changes directly to the Gallente ships. If you do it to rigs then you just make the other races (mostly ammar even more badass to fly. An armor tanked cane with its tiny sig radius and full speed would be absolutely devastating.)
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-11-04 18:06:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
The idea of messing with rigs seems like a poor idea. It affects too many aspects of the game and in the end will only make the other platforms that much better over the hybrid boats, particularly if Amarr gets a speed bonus from changes to armor rigs and the shield tanked Minmatar boats don't get a sig radius increase from shield rigs, because they already enjoy a very low sig radius to start with. Messing with rigs just impacts so many other aspects of ship designs of all the races. The changes need to be Gallente boats specifically. Caldari long range rails I think is simpler to deal with directly to the rail gun stats.

I think the most succinct argument to date is that there is just no good reason to fly Gallente boats. Whether you are talking solo/small groups or in bigger fleets. They tend to be more expensive and every time you go into a fight, you are committed 100%. All the other races can fight aligned or kite out of damage and warp. Even fighting within single point range is viable and can be exited from with MWD. Gallente fight inside scram/web/neut range. The cost/benefit just isn't there. In the POP,POP, POP of fleet fights its often very frustrating for a Gallente pilot to try and get into range of primary as targets change. Right as you get there, primary goes pop and now new primary is far away again. Even with frigate tackler support most Hurricanes have such high tracking that if frigs try to tackle with a scram on, they die. But scram is what is needed to slow the immense speed of these ships.

There has to be a reason to fly Gallente over other options. Currently there are none, except maybe the Arazu.

SPEED/AGILITY arguments: These boats need both but I think agility cannot be overlooked or nerfed. The speed required to catch a kiting target is ridiculously high and only viable for small ships. We don't have to be faster than Minmatar, but we need a bit more than now. Tactics and using a cloaky or a inty is key to this effort. But even if you can land at zero on a kiter, by the time you align, approach, target and try to apply scram/web, they are out of range. So the ability to quickly achieve speed is key for any hope of catching targets. This also applies to orbiting w/ speed in a fight and the ability to rapidly change direction in fleet fights as different targets are called. And we must do this as we lack weapon range to be effective otherwise. CCP is on the right track with increasing this directly to Gallente ships, they just need a larger increase directly applied to overcome the rig penalties a bit. Removing rig penalties or changing them only then make the other races more appealing.

The SECOND BONUS: Any Gallente ship that has the horrible 7.5 armor repair bonus(and the stupid Thorax's MWD cap bonus) should have that replaced with something that assists with controlling range in a fight. My recommendation would be for some, like the Brutix to have a significant range bonus to SCRAMs only. Some should have a bonus to WEB velocity factor or WEB range. This would make them much more capable of achieving a lock down when warping in on someone. Catching a kiter is rarely viable in a pure speed race. That requires good use of cloaky's and inty's.

Tank: Fine, Gallente should be shield tanked to be a close in brawlers w/speed, but they are not. Even some ships that will attempt shield tanking like the Myrm and Hyperion just aren't as effective since their sig radius are already big, and when shield tanked the Myrm is almost Battleship size. A fully shield tanked cane is roughly the same sig radius as a armor tanked Mrym. CCP will not support 3 shield tanked races. So the tank needs to be impressive on a brawling, close in fighter that has to commit 100% every time to every fight. Half the reason why people don't fly gallente is that they get tired of being killed because they have to commit every time to do so. Can't warp off like every one else. So do a slight plug of the Explosive hole in every Gallente ship to help increase tank. Maybe 20% to T1 hulls, higher in others.

HYBRIDS: Ok, Blasters. They have the worst aspects of lasers and projectiles and none of the benefits.
1) Since they will deal with the highest transversal (closest to the center of the orbit circle), they should have the highest tracking. This needs serious boost since low slots on armor tanks have to be dedicated to armor unlike the shield tanked Minmatar boats.
2) Instant ammo changes to help control application of DPS in the high stress/quick decision cycle of close in fighting.
3) Much lower CAP usage as we fight in Neut territory. I'd say remove all together frankly. Or give a utility high slot to every Gallente boat for a vampire perhaps. (which some have, and probably boost performance of vampires in general)
4) Increase damage by 30%. Make them dominate the close in fight and give people a reason to commit to the fight and probably still lose their ship.
5) Increase range by just a bit of optimal. Not crazy but on some of these its damn near seems like zero. Just perhaps 10% to optimal.
6) Get rid of void's tracking/cap penalty. If you can get this close, you deserve to **** your target.
DRONES: Add a Scram drone. That would help with catching kiters. They still have a chance to blow up the drones before you catch them. I would think that with 3 light scram drones applying effects, that should be enough to shut down the MWD. the other 2 are buffer or even web drones. Some of the Gallente Drone boats need some love. A bit of bandwidth would help some for the Mrym for sure.

So that's my piece of advice that will absolutely get ignored and probably trolled.
Nemesor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-11-04 18:33:13 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Make them dominate the close in fight and give people a reason to commit to the fight and probably still lose their ship.


I agree with every point of the above post. Gallente used to be the Lord Nelson "Go straight at 'em" style of ship. Now... well. No one flies most of their ships because Speed nerfs, Agility Nerfs, Armor rig nerfs, Laser and projectile buffs have all made Blaster boats completely obsolete.

I would actually encourage an even larger damage boost. To 40 percent.
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