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Prototype: Dojos

First post First post First post
Author
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#321 - 2014-09-25 16:45:46 UTC
Black Panpher wrote:
This is NOT EvE.


THIS

IS

SPARTA

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#322 - 2014-09-25 16:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Its not a sandbox element if it is an instance.

I have just as much right to gank you as you have to go do a 1v1.


No, no you don't, you have ways to gank people within a setup, just like being docked dojos aren't part of that setup.

Do you also complain about not being to gank the AT teams?


You keep saying "logic" and trying to name a few logical fallacies you cribbed from Wikipedia, whilst literally every argument you make is a text-book example of one (this here being an Appeal to Equality / equivalence on your beginners list). It's quite amazing and I don't know if it's a clever troll or you're just way out of your depth in an argument and can't express it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Ais Hellia
Jita Honor Industries Union
#323 - 2014-09-25 16:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ais Hellia
Sydon Audeles wrote:
Ais Hellia wrote:
Sydon Audeles wrote:
Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules)


You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time


You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance.


it takes too much time and you can't check implants
boundary violations should be executed as in AT (immediate elimination)
what will you do if you notice boundary violations AFTER match fininshed?
rematch or what? that takes too much time too and can be unfair to for example surprise setups with their opponents having a lot of time to figure out how to deal with them

Well i would like to have a full set of AT tools, not some surrogates with limited abilities
Kat Ayclism
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#324 - 2014-09-25 16:48:56 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.

BECAUSE THIS IS A TOOL FOR THOSE THINGS.

Veritas does A LOT of work to make the AT function at all. Without him it's going to be a bit of a shitshow. So he made a tool that CCP can expand on to do all the coddling for them that he currently has to do.

It's an AMAZING resource.

As fricking stated, it's an extremely early PROTOTYPE. There's ZERO indication of it coming to TQ at all- let alone soon if it were- but I would overwhelmingly wager that if it were, it'd be so that they can finally delete the Jove space and just hold tourneys - quite possibly more frequently- in Empire space.

It has the potential to simplify every single aspect of the AT on CCP's end (again, super important with Veritas leaving), and eliminate silly things like a ship actually slipping through with an illegal mod.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#325 - 2014-09-25 16:50:19 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


You realize that people having their own play style in the EvE sandbox is EvE' s core. It's their entire marketing strategy that you can be, do, act however you want in game. And guess what, if you want to be a ring leader you'd now have the chance....

Mind blown Shocked



Where does this even come from? No one is talking about "play styles" or you playing like me (you wanna run lvl 5 missions? because thats what I'm doing this week).

We are talking about the design and purpose of the game. Dojos don't fit because of the "unprobable deadspace bubble" aspect.

The way the corp principle in question (non-consensual pvp) works is that ANYWHERE in New Eden where a ship is in space, that ship is subject to unwanted pvp interaction. This also means that you can be 'backstabbed' anywhere also.

EVE succeeds because it doesn't do what other MMOs tend to do. While this would be a small thing, it goes counter to what makes EVE great and therefore shouldn't happen.

Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#326 - 2014-09-25 16:50:56 UTC
This is very similar to an idea I posted about putting toys in the sandbox. As long as the players are running the arena and not an "NPC entity" this opens up options for interactions between the players.

I appreciate the concerns about killing off world PVP BUT this isn't Trammel and more 1 out of every 10 players in UO got beyond "leveling their Raven". EVE is a PVP game where a terrifyingly large portion of the player base already doesn't PEW. Anything that might get a few more people into popping ships is good.



Every day I'm wafflin!

Seamus Donohue
EVE University
Ivy League
#327 - 2014-09-25 16:51:40 UTC
Guys? Read the post.

CCP Veritas wrote:
2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself

{snip}

There’s a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (it’s huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment.

Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP.

Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with.

Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality.

---

Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).

Survivor of Teskanen.  Fan of John Rourke.

I have video tutorials for EVE Online on my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/SeamusDonohueEVE

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#328 - 2014-09-25 16:52:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

About the sandbox issue:
Are in-game contracts to be condemned? Because the game mechanism guarantees you cannot cheat? (as long as everyone reads the thing)
Is the market to be condemned? Because no one can just steal from the market?
Isn't that completely un-sandboxy???




Both the market and contracts can be used to scam people.[/quote]

Both the markets and contracts LIMIT the precious sandbox freedom and create a TON of opportunities (including opportunities to scam) by doing so.
Imagine you were in Jita offering stuff for sale and you would have to trust people sending you money after you handed over the goods. Would be totally cool and also possible to scam if you were NOT automatically charged the price wouldn't it?

Those Dojos will just be another tool that helps players to create content and fun. And explosions. And some will always scam, grief with this. Whatever it will look like in the end.

But.
I think the most crucial point is...

Is there any CCP dev crazy enough to even touch the code of this after "a couple of months" of THAT after CCP Veritas is leaving?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#329 - 2014-09-25 16:52:52 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
This is very similar to an idea I posted about putting toys in the sandbox. As long as the players are running the arena and not an "NPC entity" this opens up options for interactions between the players.

I appreciate the concerns about killing off world PVP BUT this isn't Trammel and more 1 out of every 10 players in UO got beyond "leveling their Raven". EVE is a PVP game where a terrifyingly large portion of the player base already doesn't PEW. Anything that might get a few more people into popping ships is good.





You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.
Ais Hellia
Jita Honor Industries Union
#330 - 2014-09-25 16:53:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
[quote=Yun Kuai]
EVE succeeds


So much success lately

"We are looking for a new lead programmer ready to dig into a 10-year old code"Roll
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#331 - 2014-09-25 16:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ruric Thyase
baltec1 wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:



What I wrote





All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.


I don't think I've ever had a ship destroyed while I was on dotlan looking for alternate routes through a danger zone and thus blocked someone from atttacking me...

And dojos will allow people to attack you, just one at a time :P (yay humor!)


It didn't block people from attacking you in EVE.




No, but it ensured that if someone wanted to try and attack me they would have to find me on my terms and engage me on my terms and not theirs. I am not saying we shouldnt reward the player who invests the time and manages to catch me, that aspect will always be in EVE and these dojos wont stop people from ganking freighters, can flipping ratters, and other methods of fighting people who dont want the fight.

The dojo can't be used for mining, ratting, incursions, offgrid boosts, or any other possible abuses. There will still be plenty of people to backstab, manipulate, and gank. There will be one method for one type of engagement and that is the 1v1.

Personally, I think the 1v1 is acceptable for TQ, I like some of the mechanics people have thought of with messing with the dojo while it is deployed, I think if CCP wanted to go larger than 1v1 it should explicitly stay off the TQ server. I look at the dojo as a great way to train on ships, even after 6 years I have no clue what the **** I am doing at times. I would still gladly go out on small roams, I would still PvP in conventional methods, and having this on TQ wouldn't change the fun I'd have flying with my corpmates into repeated oblivion and death.

Anyway,

Meh
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#332 - 2014-09-25 16:54:25 UTC
Most everything has been said already, so I'll just stick with this: No.

Remove standings and insurance.

Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#333 - 2014-09-25 16:55:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

You don't change the heart and soul of a game on "might". And in EVE, everyone PVPs, pvp isn't just 'pew'.


Why can't we blob the AT teams then? Why can't we attack people in stations? Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp?

I have a Ph.D

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#334 - 2014-09-25 16:55:23 UTC
Seamus Donohue wrote:
Guys? Read the post.

CCP Veritas wrote:
2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself

{snip}

There’s a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (it’s huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment.

Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP.

Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with.

Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality.

---

Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).



"Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'.

And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2014-09-25 16:57:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ruric Thyase wrote:



By this logic (as well as some of your previous posts) then wouldn't any program used outside of being logged into the EVE client be a violation of the games core(and founding) principles? I mean by your reasoning, instanced gaming is any situation in which players can interact with game mechanics with zero interference (and risk) from other players.

Jabber lets you play EVE Offline, EVEMon basically give you the advantage for long term skill training and sp optimization. Dotlan provides information on system activity and traffic, allowing you to avoid dangerous systems, EFT allows you to optimize ship fittings without having to physically own the ship, EVE Survival turns PvE into a Prima Game Guide, EVECentral allows you to inspect universe markets as compared to just a region, and yet none of these are made available in the game client, none of these contain an element of risk, and yet every one of these give distinct and significant advantages to players who use them, as compared to the new players.





All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.


Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight. Let's break this down for a moment and assume that the dojo came to support 10 v 10 fights. Now let's get the real perspective:
The dojo owner took the time to organize the location, time, and rules. Designed the complete structure and layout of the tournament rounds not limited to ships allowed, timers, WH effects (wouldn't that be fun). They also took all the time to gather and assemble all of the ships + fits. They then spent time broadcasting and gathering enough players who were interested in tourney contest. Then they gathered all of the capital to support prizes upfront. They also set aside a weekend to run the tournament and have gotten commentators involved as well. Finally after all of the planning and coordinating, a group of eve players who caught wind of the twitch stream/news burn over in t1 fit arty ruptures and warp in and ruin the whole tournament in a matter of minutes for some instant gratification lols. But let's not ruin EvE right?

Now don't get me wrong, it would be fun to see it happen once, but after every highsec **** who gets their kicks griefing, ganking, etc has had their fill and then some what's left. Another feature soiled and left unused bc we catered to a few players who need to seek some RL help.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#336 - 2014-09-25 16:58:27 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:

Why can't we blob the AT teams then?


AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.

Quote:
Why can't we attack people in stations?

Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.

Quote:

Why can't we destroy nullsec assets in stations (that ccp will move for you after some months of inactivity)? Why can't we get access to APIs in game and check for alts since it's a way to metagame the pvp?


These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.

You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#337 - 2014-09-25 16:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
baltec1 wrote:

All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.

Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere.

What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you.

The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else.

That is their choice, not yours.

Hey guys.

Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#338 - 2014-09-25 16:59:46 UTC
Seamus Donohue wrote:

Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).


Do you also think that having mobile refit/anti-cyno items is bad? It gave people more options and we have different ways to fight, is it wrong?

I have a Ph.D

Sydon Audeles
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2014-09-25 17:00:19 UTC
Ais Hellia wrote:
Sydon Audeles wrote:
Ais Hellia wrote:
Sydon Audeles wrote:
Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules)


You should be able to check the rule requirments BEFORE the fight starts not after or it is a waste of time


You can do that now. Have them fly out in their ships to your safe spot, have the "referee" board each ship and check the fits, then they re-board their ships and go to town. I was talking more about seeing if someone flew past a boundary distance and wasn't noticed during the fight, for instance.


it takes too much time and you can't check implants
boundary violations should be executed as in AT (immediate elimination)
what will you do if you notice boundary violations AFTER match fininshed?
rematch or what? that takes too much time too and can be unfair to for example surprise setups with their opponents having a lot of time to figure out how to deal with them

Well i would like to have a full set of AT tools, not some surrogates with limited abilities


Dojo doesn't do anything about implants either, and someone found to have boundary violated could be easily DQ'd after verifying with CREST if you didn't notice during the fight. For live checking, have your referee pilot act as the centerpoint and anyone who gets over 100km away from him is DQ'd and blapped by his arty maelstrom referee ship (or whatever).

You want full AT tools, but I don't think those should be made available to players, so we're not going to fully agree on this. I suggested a CREST-dump deployable earlier in the thread, but I would contend that everything else as far as rule enforcement is already reasonably doable by players with existing resources.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#340 - 2014-09-25 17:00:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.


WE??

Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that.

If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great!