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Prototype: Dojos

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#341 - 2014-09-25 17:00:50 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


Is anyone else deeply disturbed that the EvE player base is so outraged because they can't interfere with an organized fight.


This game was created with the concept of universal non-consensual pvp as a corner stone. YES people should be outraged at a mechanic that bypasses this cornerstone even if it doesn't outwardly affect them personally. It means the end of the EVE Online original concept.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#342 - 2014-09-25 17:00:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Seamus Donohue wrote:
Guys? Read the post.

CCP Veritas wrote:
2. Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself

{snip}

There’s a personal deployable that you can obtain from item redeption on Duality that when put into space and stocked with ships and modules (it’s huge), provides players docked in that system with the ability to fight each other with those ships and modules in fair environment.

Whoever is deploying this dojo has to shove ships and modules into it. Somebody has to buy or manufacture those ships and modules. The minerals and moon goo to make those ships and modules must come from player activity. All this is is a way for one player to subsidize another player's PvP.

Dojos on Duality might have stuff automatically spawned into them but only because it's Duality. CCP Veritas is not proposing that Dojos on Tranquility will have free stuff spawned into them by CCP. Additionally, Veritas explicitly states "Outside of the actual matches, there should be ways to screw with the dojo itself", implying that the dojo can be attacked. It's only the deadspace matches that cannot be interfered with.

Nobody is proposing bringing Simulator Mode to Tranquility; Simulator Mode is already provided by Singularity and Duality.

---

Now, the only concern I have is that if this is deployed to Tranquility, then this can be used as a method to leave a station that is currently camped. You can get your pod and implants out into space, bypassing the station camp, or get a force of pilots out into space and then warp to the station camp and optimals, rather than be forced to either use instant undock bookmarks (or in the case of bubbles, be forced to fight on the station undock spawn point).



"Simulator" isn't the issue, in fact a simulator (while being un-eve like also) would actually be ok because that doesn't mean 'ships in space on TQ that can't be probed down'.

And yes, someone, somehow will find a way to take these things and make CCP regret putting them in. ESS in wormholes and anomalies anoyone?


Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#343 - 2014-09-25 17:02:01 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


The instant gratification mob are by far the worst crowd to cater to, soon after adding 1v1s they will demand 10v10s. Before long we will find PvP rank systems and then all PvP will happen in the arenas. It has happened time after time after time in the exact same way to every single game that added arenas. We joined EVE because it is not like all of those countless other games.


WE??

Dont speak for me please, I joined to shoot spaceships - which is hard to do lately. Your fault, by the way - blue donut and all that.

If arenas allow my to pew and bypass your blobbing and other null- and low- faggotry, great!


All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#344 - 2014-09-25 17:04:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

AT is an exception, and the only one that should be allowed.


"Because I said so."

Despite how popular AT is, despite how popular solo pvp is/was and how much content and new players it added to the game. Roll

Jenn aSide wrote:

Because they are docked. Dojos would put people IN SPACE. Everyone in sapce should be subject to non-consensual pvp. This is a core facet of EVE Online.


Cloaked people in safes aren't subject to anything, are you new or something?

Jenn aSide wrote:

These 2 things have nothing to do with this discussion. Stations should be destroyable but I don't even know what thate api crap comes from.

You are trying to find ways to make this make sense in your own head. Problem is that is the only place this idea makes any sense.


Using alts is a way to metagame the pvp system, I can use a safe carebear alt in deepnull/hs and you can't do anything to hurt me from my main.

I have a Ph.D
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#345 - 2014-09-25 17:04:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.


And that is a bad thing, because....?
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#346 - 2014-09-25 17:04:44 UTC
Sydon Audeles wrote:
As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.

This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics.


The reason this works for the alliance tournament, and possibly for dojos, is that they are restricted to the maximum number of participants. If a deployable was deployed in a big fleet battle we couldn't do what we do for the alliance tournament.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#347 - 2014-09-25 17:04:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.


All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts.

If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right?

I have a Ph.D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#348 - 2014-09-25 17:04:57 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

All of those tools help you, they do not block people from attacking you which is what these dojos will do.

Doesn't matter. In high-sec two players can agree to duel and do so in a safe. You have realistically no chance of figuring this out, much less scanning them down and getting to them in time to interfere.

What we can see from this scenario is that the two players who actually want a fair duel cannot be affected by you, nor do they affect you.

The problem with the current scenario is there is no way for two random players to do this without risking 5 logi alts interfering with the fight. There are players who duel like this - which is fine - and players that want a fair duel. A dojo gives the fair players an option to guarantee a fair fight. It does not affect a 3rd party like you, it only affects the ability for an agreeing duel member to interfere via alts or friends. Considering both parties agree not to do this when entering the dojo, this only affects those parties, never you or anyone else.

That is their choice, not yours.


My choice to blow up their poorly fitted cruiser with a neutron mega is just as valid as yours to engage in a 1v1 honour duel. That's what the sandbox is.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#349 - 2014-09-25 17:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Steppa Musana
Quote:
Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station.

Neutral Orca.

Quote:
Placing a booster alt inside one.

Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area.

Quote:
Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.

Could you not do the same with FW sites? Alternatively could be blocked by a shield much like a starbase; hit the shield while dueling, you explode (boundary violation).


Point here is adjustments can be made to mitigate exploitation.

Hey guys.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#350 - 2014-09-25 17:05:48 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.


All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts.

If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right?


No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#351 - 2014-09-25 17:06:28 UTC
Lol
baltec1 wrote:

Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.


Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work.

And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp.

As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stupid, but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answer to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L).

Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#352 - 2014-09-25 17:07:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.


All we ask is to be able to destroy your station assets and have access to your alts.

If it's a true sandbox we should be able to, am I right?


No, your line of argument is as stupid now as it was when you started.


Thanks, I was using your logic.

I have a Ph.D
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#353 - 2014-09-25 17:07:52 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
Quote:
Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station.

Neutral Orca.

Quote:
Placing a booster alt inside one.

Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area.

Quote:
Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.

Could you not do the same with FW sites? And yet no one does it.


They are hard to set up in low sec and a mostly unknown tactic.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#354 - 2014-09-25 17:08:03 UTC
Steppa Musana wrote:
Quote:
Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station.

Neutral Orca.

Quote:
Placing a booster alt inside one.

Adjust boosts mechanic to not apply outside this area.

Quote:
Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.

Could you not do the same with FW sites? Alternatively could be blocked by a shield much like a starbase; hit the shield while dueling, you explode (boundary violation).


Point here is adjustments can be made to mitigate exploitation.


If you have to damn near re-write the game to fix possible exploits of a deplorable, doesn't that mean the deplorable was a bad idea to begin with?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#355 - 2014-09-25 17:08:45 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:


Thanks, I was using your logic.


Again you use that word while demonstrating a lack of it.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#356 - 2014-09-25 17:09:03 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
logic.


There you go using that word again.

One day you'll figure out what it means, and you'll probably stop posting.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#357 - 2014-09-25 17:09:13 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Blocking people from being backstabbing vagrants is taking away from the sandbox.


And that is a bad thing, because....?



Because this is EVE. *Kicks LUM into death pit*
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#358 - 2014-09-25 17:09:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lol
baltec1 wrote:

Storing gank ships inside them to use when people are camping the station. Placing a booster alt inside one. Its a deadspace so given enough time you can slowburn a rattle into it, have it cloak and then farm frigates. New players will enter them and get wiped out, turning them into effectively a farm for killmails.


Exactly. CCP would have to make links not work inside of them. More work.

And what about people in the station with implants, will the implants be transported outside too? Can you just warp out of the deadspace pocket and BOOM, you are free of a hell camp.

As usual with all naive ideas, the 'supporters' haven't thought it through (hello Dominion SOV all over again, some people said it was stupid, but the supporters, tired of the pos grind, were SURE that Dominion was the fix and the answer to getting small groups to go to null L....O.....L).

Part of me is now hoping CCP bring this to tranquility so when it screws up a lot of things in unintended ways we can link this thread and watch those same supporters NOT reply....


It's not like CCP changed the way they test stuff since then, It's not like they said they will have modules/ship checks before entering.

Oh wait.

I have a Ph.D
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#359 - 2014-09-25 17:09:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

All we ask is to be allowed to backstab you.


Yeah, go and reinforce the dojo, or have 10 catalysts ready as i land on the dojo and attempt to enter it. Or join the dojo corp, rise to position of power, then steal the frigates out of the dojo.
Sydon Audeles
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#360 - 2014-09-25 17:10:08 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Sydon Audeles wrote:
As we were discussing this in my alliance IRC, someone brought up this idea as an alternative: Make a deployable object that gives a data-dump of CREST info like we had for the alliance tournament for everything happening within a certain distance of it - say, 200km. To offset the additional computing time/server cost, make it cost Aurum. Then you can setup your little tournaments around the deployable, get all that extra data to look at and analyze (and check for people breaking your tournament's rules) and have fun with, all without changing fundamental EVE mechanics whatsoever. You could also use this as a training tool - setup one of these things, duel someone a few times, then use a tool like null-sec.com's ATXII replays to point out what they did wrong or how they could have handled a situation better.

This moves forward the goal of helping people do cool things with private tournaments or events, but doesn't screw with core EVE ideas or mechanics.


The reason this works for the alliance tournament, and possibly for dojos, is that they are restricted to the maximum number of participants. If a deployable was deployed in a big fleet battle we couldn't do what we do for the alliance tournament.


Totally understandable. Could it be feasible then to have this module auto-deactivate if it finds more than X number of ships in range? That way if there are only, 2 or 10 or 20 ships in range it works but if someone drops it during a 1000 man fleet fight it just doesn't do anything.