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Prototype: Dojos

First post First post First post
Author
Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#281 - 2014-09-25 16:19:32 UTC
Firstly, to all the people writing "CCP shouldn't be wasting time on this" understand that the developers are given 20% (Or is it 10%?) of their daily time to work on their own projects. The projects have to be related to EVE and add content, but they are able to literally do whatever they want. CCP Greyscale made a bomb that instead of doing damage, created a massive collision sphere and bumbs ships inside the explosion radius. For all of the butthurt over titan pos bumping, could you just imagine the threadnaught if he released this?

For the people who basically copy paste the same argument that this is instanced gaming, where is your rage at Project Legion and Valkyrie? What about DUST? Last I checked DUST still has an effect of EVE mechanics. Please tell me how EVE has disappeared since that came about. Please tell me how you will really react if CCP manages to get Legion, Valkyrie, and EVE in the same server universe.

The one aspect that would still separate EVE dojos from the arenas of other MMOs is the fact that if you lose the fight, you lose the ship. Just like every other wreck in this game, someone, somewhere is out the ISK and has to remake the money. You die in a WoW arena? You still have all your epic loot. You bring a AT prize frigate to an e-honor duel and lost it, then it is gone. In fact, I think that MIGHT HAVE JUST HAPPENED

http://themittani.com/news/one-less-rare-ship-utu-down

As for instanced gaming, please tell me how Jabber and other similar 3rd party programs have not turned nullsec into the giant doughnut. People are looking for content so hard, that last night Pandemic Legion dropped supers on a TEST cruiser fleet. Not a t2 fleet, not a massive fleet, just a simple cruiser roam that warranted 8 super carriers to put it out.

Veritas just threw an ultimately inconsequential tool onto a test server and said "Go play with this if you want to, I made it and Im never going to see you again"
Ais Hellia
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
#282 - 2014-09-25 16:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ais Hellia
Yup i still can't get why people keep calling sandbox the game where all personal and corporate assets are perfectly safe at the station even if the said station get conquered by rival forces?
that's pretty re tard ed
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#283 - 2014-09-25 16:20:29 UTC
This isn't a good idea. Improve FW if you want pvp to be more easily accessible.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#284 - 2014-09-25 16:20:49 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Regnag Leppod wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.


Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.


you may have slightly missed the point.

world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added.

eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them.


Flawed logic, there is no incentive to go out in the middle of the map for wow, it's not the same for eve.

Another example : GW2 has an "out of the pve map" pvp system using your flawed logic it would kill the open world pvp, a lot of people are roaming the open world wvw map, why ? Because there is an incentive to go there, dojos won't remove anything.

Just because wow has a terrible open world design doesn't mean dojos in eve aren't viable, but nice logical fallacy.

I have a Ph.D

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#285 - 2014-09-25 16:21:18 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

So its not sandbox then is it?


Eve stopped being a sandbox because of the AT?

Jenn aSide wrote:

We are dealing with it, but explaining to them why this is a terribly bad idea. Your problem is that yo think you will get something out of this, therefore the fact that this could be bad for many aspects of the game doesn't bother you. It's basically selfishness (which infects all "solo" types).


I don't expect anything from it when I go roam for hours, same here but thanks for the logical fallacy and generalization (pro-tip : people have been soloing for years).

Also thanks for your opinion, funny how all the people complaining about this are not part of the target demographic.

ayyy lmao


The "Target Demographic" is and should be EVE players (as a whole), not some selfish special interest group who doesn't care about everyone else.

For someone who doesn't PVP or care about it you sure are vocal about everyone conforming to your own vision of EvE (hey Baltec alt). Your eve is not my eve and it will never be. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. There are countless eve players who don't enjoy jumping into a camp with triage carriers on standby. There are countless people who would love to run gambling rings and tournament chains. This is the perfect situation and tool that has bee requested to add a completely whole new level of organized player content. Just because you can't be a giant ******* and **** in someone's Cheerios you're getting all upset. How much more selfish can you be.


One of the ways a poster can know he's winning is when the counter-poster guy starts going on about "play styles" and crap lol

We are talking about a CORE ASPECT of EVE Online being mooted. Everyone who plays EVE (and actually likes what it is) should be concerned about this, even if it's 'not something that affects them personally".

In the same way as a PVE player I dislike high sec incursions (though I have partaken in those, an individual should just not be able t make that kind of isk while being protected by CONCORD), as an EVE player in general i don't want to see our game turned into some instanced BS where people are too busy doing 'fair fights' to do anything else.

If you introduce a mechanic that enforces fairness in a game that is BUILT upon the idea that fairness isn't even a thing (ie the 1st 11 years of EVE), you are killing the spirit of that game. Some of you can't see that because IMO you are short sighted. The same Shortsightedness saddled us with Dominion SOV (which man of you LOVED at 1st).

Calmer and smarter heads should prevail here. CCP should keep instancing and Arenas out of the game with the only exception being a few tournament events.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2014-09-25 16:21:37 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.



Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO.

It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose.
Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.

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Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#287 - 2014-09-25 16:21:46 UTC
I just want to say that I have wanted a tournament bubble since the first time I saw an alliance try to run an internal tournament. The one thing I could never figure out was how to solve the boundary violation problem of "How do you get inside for the fight without getting boundary violated?"

Since we do like to spectate our arranged fights, is there a way that it can be set up so people who want to watch can watch without interfering? Like, a "here are the matches in progress; go to spectator's box" sort of thing?
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#288 - 2014-09-25 16:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Seismic Stan
I love this idea.

It's something which has been kicked around repeatedly over the years and discussed at length by the blogging community (Blog Banter 27: EVE Quick Matches, July 2011 - summarised here).

I entirely understand the concerns some have regarding arenas/dojos being the antithesis of EVE's open world concept, but that really depends on the implementation. As this prototype uses a deployable which can be interfered with, it sounds like that issue is largely sidestepped.

I really hope a middle ground can be found that would enable this to be deployed on Tranquility, it could open up all sorts of sandbox possibilities and new playstyles such as professional gladiator, fight organiser and quartermaster, not to mention the out-of-game streaming and commentating potential.

I also like the idea of being able to use the deployable as a kind of mobile spaceship showroom or market stall, which would allow the sale of fitted ships with some face-to-face interaction, letting folk go for 'test drives' and so on.

In any case, it could be a shot in the arm for bored veterans and rookies alike and might well engage an under-represented player demographic (those who like EVE but can't devote hours to roam for the vague chance of a fight which may or may not turn out to be a rewarding experience).

A feature which could attract new players to EVE and provides a new way to enjoy content and player interaction can only be a healthy thing.
Dave Stark
#289 - 2014-09-25 16:23:07 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Regnag Leppod wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

It will die just like the PvP in all of those other games did.


Do please feel free at any time to provide a list of sources showing PROOF of these overly dramatic claims. You keep repeating it, yet never once have I seen a link showing the financial downfall of a game being directly linked to the addition of arenas.


you may have slightly missed the point.

world pvp died in those games. see the beginning of wow before BGs and Arenas... world pvp in tarren mill etc, that **** vanished so quickly after things like battlegrounds and arenas were added.

eve is essentially built on that "world pvp" that has evaporated in pretty much every game that has these kind of instanced pvp systems in them.


Flawed logic, there is no incentive to go out in the middle of the map for wow, it's not the same for eve.

Another example : GW2 has an "out of the pve map" pvp system using your flawed logic it would kill the open world pvp, a lot of people are roaming the open world wvw map, why ? Because there is an incentive to go there, dojos won't remove anything.

Just because wow has a terrible open world design doesn't mean dojos in eve aren't viable, but nice logical fallacy.


look at low sec, low sec is essentially what a pvp server is on wow. an area of space where you can attack anyone on the "other team" (defined in eve as, anyone that isn't you) for no incentive.

so no, it isn't a flawed logic.
Regnag Leppod
Doomheim
#290 - 2014-09-25 16:23:14 UTC
Never played WoW, nor SWG. Still waiting for hard evidence showing decrease in numbers or subs, or some solid factual evidence showing that such changes destroyed games.

Guild Wars 2 added custom arenas, and their World vs. World is still going strong, with the custom arenas not used nearly as much. In effect, the opposite of some claims here.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#291 - 2014-09-25 16:23:49 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
[quote=baltec1]
I can't bomb your nullsec assets


Why not? Is your F1 key broken?
Dave Stark
#292 - 2014-09-25 16:24:05 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.



Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO.

It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose.
Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.



except a peroidic tournament isn't even comparable to a tool that can be used to essentially replace how we pvp in eve.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#293 - 2014-09-25 16:24:46 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.



Because what this dojo is, is a tool given to players to create, manage, and grow their own personal tournaments in between the AT and the NEO.

It's about creating one more exciting layer of content for anyone and everyone to get involved with....if they choose.
Miners to provide minerals for the construction of the dojo (hopefully), haulers to move ships and fittings, market traders to provide the necessary equipment and the list goes on.



We can already do this and have done for well over a decade.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#294 - 2014-09-25 16:25:04 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
I'm still curious as to why the irrelevant AT and other similar events keep getting brought up.


"Mommy, why are people in a sandbox game not doing the same thing as me" - you

HTFU


You realize it's childish to hide behind such an argument on a grown folks forum right?

No one cares what you do. This isn't about you anyways. it's about not wanting the developer of this game to violate one of the games core (and founding) principles for any reason some of us like EVE and want it's core to remain intact even as it evolves (as any game must).
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#295 - 2014-09-25 16:25:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.


Everything you said is wrong, nice damage control.

You still don't understand, you can gank people within a setup, being in a station and in dojos isn't part of the setup.

I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic.

I have a Ph.D

Dave Stark
#296 - 2014-09-25 16:27:04 UTC
EVE. everyone vs everyone (except in deadspace pockets for your honourable 1v1s)
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#297 - 2014-09-25 16:27:36 UTC
Regnag Leppod wrote:


Guild Wars 2 added custom arenas, and their World vs. World is still going strong, with the custom arenas not used nearly as much. In effect, the opposite of some claims here.


Guild Wars 2 also never had open world PvP. Both sPvP and WvW are separate game modes that one must elect to enter into. GW2 partitions its PvP away from its PvE, exactly as this line of development in EVE will eventually lead to, and exactly as it has in other games in which it has been introduced.
Bamboozlement
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#298 - 2014-09-25 16:28:29 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

look at low sec, low sec is essentially what a pvp server is on wow. an area of space where you can attack anyone on the "other team" (defined in eve as, anyone that isn't you) for no incentive.

so no, it isn't a flawed logic.


Yep no incentive at all except:

- capital production

- shiny pve runners ganks

- fw

- l5 missions

- drug production

etc

Absolutely no incentive to go in lowsec and defend your space. /s Roll

I have a Ph.D

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#299 - 2014-09-25 16:28:36 UTC
Bamboozlement wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.


Everything you said is wrong, nice damage control.

You still don't understand, you can gank people within a setup, being in a station and in dojos isn't part of the setup.

I want to trade in station all day, you want to gank me what happens? Is eve not a sandbox because you can't gank me? Nice logic.


I can destroy your market.

We are talking about undocked ships, blocking people from interfering in your dojo goes against everything about EVE. You should never be safe like this in space especially in PvP.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#300 - 2014-09-25 16:28:38 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

1. yes you can

2. AT has nothing at all to do with what happens on tranq

3. what has this to do with anything?

Point remains, you are stopping me from entering the arena to kill you, this goes against the sandbox.


On the contrary. The whole purpose of the thing is that you enter and (try to) kill me. :-D
Only you have to come without a cyno and/or a 20-man gang.
And actually there could be a fun fight for BOTH parties involved which is rather rare otherwise.

About the sandbox issue:
Are in-game contracts to be condemned? Because the game mechanism guarantees you cannot cheat? (as long as everyone reads the thing)
Is the market to be condemned? Because no one can just steal from the market?
Isn't that completely un-sandboxy???