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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Solecist Project
#241 - 2014-06-17 12:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Couple of techniques I've seen used, to good effect. Grab a good combat scanner, drop probes right outside the station being used as a rally point. First time the gankers roll out, scan the undock insta down. Second time they undock, be waiting at the compromised undock with a sebo/rseboed ship loaded to the gills with points. With outlaws, you don't actually have to shoot, just get a point on target and let facpo do the rest.
That'd never work against me, I switch every time a bookmark is compromised and use one of the other two dozens I have.... but fair point.

And I also always use warp to range ... which basically tripples the amount of spots I can instaundock to.

Quote:
I've also seen sebo/rsebo'ed ships sitting on gates, with boosted longpoints. As long as they can cover a decent chunk of the sphere you decloak in, you can snag a ganker or two as they decloak and try to warp to target. Warpscram em, let Facpo do the dirty work.
Yeah but that only works if they leave the system.

And then you eventually have to deal with them... at least that'd be the case with me.


Then you'd run away, because you can't handle it. I've met these types of players a lot,
but I don't want to say that you're one of them.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#242 - 2014-06-17 12:07:36 UTC
Azure Rayl wrote:
The problem isn't ganking per se, it's the lack of mechanics to combat ganking. Most gankers buy tags to keep there sec status high enough to not be targeted by concord (a very poor mechanic, sec status loss means nothing to them). We know who the gankers are, we know when they are scanning for a target yet we cant touch them until the crime is dealt and done (unless you want to activate that 1 billion isk killright or gank and lose you ship in the process) i mean the lack of tools to combat them is crazy, it's no wonder why they do it :(

edit: To clarify im not talking about defending against gankers (that is pretty easy) :P im talking about viable ways to offend known gankers before they actually gank :D

A Griffin loaded with a quintet of Magnetometric ECM will stop a gank in-progress (a Falcon even more-so). If you want to stop the gank before it starts, simply having a Falcon on-grid with the intended gankee will generally make a lot of gankers think twice (especially if they've been using a mix of Catalysts and Taloses).

As well, use a webbing alt, or have a corpmate follow along with you to web you nearly instantly into warp. If you don't like that you need two people at that point, well, what do you, a solo person in a non-combat ship, expect to do against a group flying combat ships?

Logi, webbing alts, griffins and falcons, all of these are preemptive measures to gankers that require no risk of CONCORD at all.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#243 - 2014-06-17 12:08:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Then advocate the removal of faction police, simple as that.

With very few exceptions(the only one I know of is faction warfare trade hub camping), they HAVE to hide in station. It's not just the smart move, it's the only not-stupid move. They aren't really able to do anything else thanks to repeated punitive mechanics leveled at them at the behest of carebears over the years.

But since it was carebears themselves who caused this situation, if they're crying about it now, then I shall laugh in their faces. They cry about fairness, when the current unfair situation is entirely of their making. To put it more simply, they made their bed. If they don't like how it looks, they should have put some forethought into it in the first place.
Yup, faction police is a bad mechanic.

It basically channels any honest neg status player into boring hit-and-run tactics.

Highsec doesn't have to be such a depressing place! It's like banning street performers from your joyless upscale neighborhood.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#244 - 2014-06-17 12:10:02 UTC
The only thing I think is wrong is: Destroyers have too much dps for their cost. Ganking is much more efficient than wars, therefore making wars (a core game design feature) an inneficient thing.



If to gank peopel hat to use a BC or Battleship then not many would be boethered. But destroyers are basically for free ( the times takes to assemble them cost more isk then the price of the ship itself).

The removal of the ROF penalty on destroyers was one of the most horrible decisions balancewise CCP has ever made.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lady Areola Fappington
#245 - 2014-06-17 12:10:20 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Couple of techniques I've seen used, to good effect. Grab a good combat scanner, drop probes right outside the station being used as a rally point. First time the gankers roll out, scan the undock insta down. Second time they undock, be waiting at the compromised undock with a sebo/rseboed ship loaded to the gills with points. With outlaws, you don't actually have to shoot, just get a point on target and let facpo do the rest.
That'd never work against me, I switch every time a bookmark is compromised and use one of the other two dozens I have.... but fair point.
And I also always use warp to range ... which basically tripples the amount of spots I can instaundock to.

Quote:
I've also seen sebo/rsebo'ed ships sitting on gates, with boosted longpoints. As long as they can cover a decent chunk of the sphere you decloak in, you can snag a ganker or two as they decloak and try to warp to target. Warpscram em, let Facpo do the dirty work.
Yeah but that only works if they leave the system.



For someone I knew had a ton of instas (most don't, TBH), I wouldn't blow my load the first insta I compromise. I'd sit back, and just keep scanning and saving instas as you undock. If you know grid-fu, you can also stretch a grid out to try to cover close-in instas.

Also, most gankers I know do leave system to bounce around for targets. Barring that, I'd park, watch, and see if I can figure out who your supply characters are. pre-emptively ganking them puts a bigger hurt than just killing individual gank ships, but that trick only works on gankers who don't have a decent supply system set up.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Solecist Project
#246 - 2014-06-17 12:11:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only thing I think is wrong is: Destroyers have too much dps for their cost. Ganking is much more efficient than wars, therefore making wars (a core game design feature) an inneficient thing.



If to gank peopel hat to use a BC or Battleship then not many would be boethered. But destroyers are basically for free ( the times takes to assemble them cost more isk then the price of the ship itself).

The removal of the ROF penalty on destroyers was one of the most horrible decisions balancewise CCP has ever made.
That's actually an interesting, but also completely irrelevant point.

ISK isn't a balancing factor. People will use whatever is the best option for the job.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#247 - 2014-06-17 12:14:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Solecist Project wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

How? They hide in station all the time, until they strike.
When they strike, it's too late.

There's nothing one can do against these lesser people,
as long as they can hide from everybody.


So how do they get from where they're hiding, passed you, to where they strike, if you're such a superior person?

What kind of comment is that?

Instaundock.
Warp to target.
Strike.
Dock.


If you don't quite get it, try to visualize it and tell me how it's possible to know where they go,
and how it's possible to be there before them. Even if that was doable, it'd still not help at all.


Any scenario people have come up with so far are completely disconnected from ingame reality.

Can you do better?


You're kidding right? I'll tell you who's disconnected from ingame reality. The dolt that can't think beyond the undock of a station.

For the record, it's pretty easy to find an insta undock. It takes time, but it is easy. I've killed more than my share of wartargets by finding their offgrid instas.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Solecist Project
#248 - 2014-06-17 12:16:05 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

How? They hide in station all the time, until they strike.
When they strike, it's too late.

There's nothing one can do against these lesser people,
as long as they can hide from everybody.


So how do they get from where they're hiding, passed you, to where they strike, if you're such a superior person?

What kind of comment is that?

Instaundock.
Warp to target.
Strike.
Dock.


If you don't quite get it, try to visualize it and tell me how it's possible to know where they go,
and how it's possible to be there before them. Even if that was doable, it'd still not help at all.


Any scenario people have come up with so far are completely disconnected from ingame reality.

Can you do better?


We are going to a gate, there are two to pick from, our target freighter can be identified as the one being bumped by nano battleships.
So?

And what's your idea of countering you?

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#249 - 2014-06-17 12:16:10 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:

No, they don't have to. I don't have to either.
Nobody has to. That's the point.


Yeah, you kinda do. It's pretty hard to tank them in any kind of ship you would fly as a suicide ganker.

Yes, they can be tanked in, for example, a T3 or a command ship or some battleships. But who the **** is going to fly one of those as a suicide ganker? You'd have to be insane.

And if you mean evading them, no, you can't do it in a battleship either, unless you fit it to align more quickly than is normal.

But if you're going to stay in open space with a neg ten sec status, you have to be in a pod where anyone who happens along can pop you if they feel like it.

So what do gankers actually do? You use a neutral Orca, or have someone bring you a ship in a safe spot, where you sit with your pod until the attack order is given.

And it's easier to just dock up until the time is right.


Quote:

Removal of faction police would make it even EASIER than it is already
and I will never ever speak for this, because it's dumbing down the game!


You want to know what's really dumbing down the game? The kind of player who wants to have NPCs do their jobs for them. The kind of player who thinks they can abandon their own responsibility to defend themselves.


But you can't cry about not being able to attack suicide gankers since they always dock up, and then vigorously defend the mechanic that causes them to dock up in the first place. Look past your own nose.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Miles Winter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#250 - 2014-06-17 12:16:15 UTC
In my opinion, the only thing that might be necessary is to make it easier for players to respond to the gankers in some better fashion than they can right now. Frankly, I think ganking is too low risk and too high reward. Consider the following: If ganking carried a great deal of risk, would one still gank relatively 'worthless' targets like empty freighters or shuttles for no relative isk-gain?

What it tells me is that the cost of replacing a ship is low enough that people can just gank for fun.
It tells me that the other repercussions for ganking in highsec are minimal or non-existent.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#251 - 2014-06-17 12:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Thread cleaned. Please follow the rules when posting. Thanks!

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2014-06-17 13:14:32 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

How? They hide in station all the time, until they strike.
When they strike, it's too late.

There's nothing one can do against these lesser people,
as long as they can hide from everybody.


So how do they get from where they're hiding, passed you, to where they strike, if you're such a superior person?

What kind of comment is that?

Instaundock.
Warp to target.
Strike.
Dock.


If you don't quite get it, try to visualize it and tell me how it's possible to know where they go,
and how it's possible to be there before them. Even if that was doable, it'd still not help at all.


Any scenario people have come up with so far are completely disconnected from ingame reality.

Can you do better?


We are going to a gate, there are two to pick from, our target freighter can be identified as the one being bumped by nano battleships.
So?

And what's your idea of countering you?


ECM, logi, counter gank, fast locking high dps cruisers, command ships. The list goes on, not only is it easy to work out where the strike will happen but its also easy to counter it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#253 - 2014-06-17 13:17:14 UTC
Miles Winter wrote:
In my opinion, the only thing that might be necessary is to make it easier for players to respond to the gankers in some better fashion than they can right now.


You'd have a better chance of catching one of them out in the open to kill them, if they didn't have to be worried about some of the tightest restrictions on their gameplay of any playstyle. If people could actually fly in highsec without the circus act of avoiding faction police.

Remove faction police.

Quote:

Frankly, I think ganking is too low risk and too high reward. Consider the following: If ganking carried a great deal of risk, would one still gank relatively 'worthless' targets like empty freighters or shuttles for no relative isk-gain?


The ganker's "risk" is directly proportionate to the defensive measures taken by the victim. You cannot, in good conscience, ask for a playstyle to be punished because of the slothful, lazy unwillingness to defend themselves exhibited by a different playstyle.

Quote:

What it tells me is that the cost of replacing a ship is low enough that people can just gank for fun.
It tells me that the other repercussions for ganking in highsec are minimal or non-existent.


Sure, let's screw new players over completely. I mean, when you're saying that T1 cruisers and destroyers are too effective or too cheap, that's what you're asking for anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#254 - 2014-06-17 13:23:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Miles Winter wrote:
In my opinion, the only thing that might be necessary is to make it easier for players to respond to the gankers in some better fashion than they can right now.
How on earth would you do that without breaking things? It's already laughably simple. People just choose not to do it, and making it easier won't change that choice. Changing what people can do is pointless if people actively and persistently refuse to do it under any and all circumstances.

Quote:
If ganking carried a great deal of risk, would one still gank relatively 'worthless' targets like empty freighters or shuttles for no relative isk-gain?
Yes. If they didn't, you'd know that something has gone horribly wrong and is in urgent need of fixing.

Quote:
What it tells me is that the cost of replacing a ship is low enough that people can just gank for fun.
So what? Why aren't people allowed to have fun?
Auron Black
Doomheim
#255 - 2014-06-17 13:28:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

No, they don't have to. I don't have to either.
Nobody has to. That's the point.


Yeah, you kinda do. It's pretty hard to tank them in any kind of ship you would fly as a suicide ganker.

Yes, they can be tanked in, for example, a T3 or a command ship or some battleships. But who the **** is going to fly one of those as a suicide ganker? You'd have to be insane.

And if you mean evading them, no, you can't do it in a battleship either, unless you fit it to align more quickly than is normal.

But if you're going to stay in open space with a neg ten sec status, you have to be in a pod where anyone who happens along can pop you if they feel like it.

So what do gankers actually do? You use a neutral Orca, or have someone bring you a ship in a safe spot, where you sit with your pod until the attack order is given.

And it's easier to just dock up until the time is right.


Quote:

Removal of faction police would make it even EASIER than it is already
and I will never ever speak for this, because it's dumbing down the game!


You want to know what's really dumbing down the game? The kind of player who wants to have NPCs do their jobs for them. The kind of player who thinks they can abandon their own responsibility to defend themselves.


But you can't cry about not being able to attack suicide gankers since they always dock up, and then vigorously defend the mechanic that causes them to dock up in the first place. Look past your own nose.


If you want players to counter gank and set traps then give us something worth ganking. We aren't going to set up traps or spend hours sitting on a gate in hopes of catching a couple 10m destroyers.

Sure you "can" attack a suicide ganker but the question becomes why bother? It's boring, unprofitable, and wont ever accomplish anything.
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#256 - 2014-06-17 13:31:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


ECM, logi, counter gank, fast locking high dps cruisers, command ships. The list goes on, not only is it easy to work out where the strike will happen but its also easy to counter it.


If i may add a little explanation why these things work.

logis:

thos ships will work pretty well as defense against ganks as most gank squads will not bring enough firepower to alpha a freighter, because it would be insanly expansive to bring that much firepower and while many peolpe think ISK is not a factor when suiciding: If you want to alpha ships like a freighter it will become a factor on the long run, especially when you shoot empty freighters.

ECM:

Those will work because most suicide ganking squads do not bring a lot more dps than you will need in the worsed case scenario. Nowadays this will surely be a lot more than needed in a case of a freighter with no tank, which will make it hard to safe those with ECM ships (but it is just a matter of how many of them you are willing to bring along). In the case of a tanked freighter you will not need to many of them fail.

Combine those 2 options and you already have a pretty good counter to ganking.

Now if you want to have some more fun and get some killmails as well.

Take a few nados for example... each tornade can easily alpha 2 catas at once or a singe untanked suiciding bc. Sit in suicide ganking systems with a few of those and it will be a lot harder and a lot more expansive for them to successfully kill the targets.



Of course we will not see this happening, because people will not team up to go against suicide gankers. In general they only start caring about them, when they become victims themselves and instead of doing anything to counter the ganks they just come to the forums and complain about how unfair it is.

If the people who complain about suiciding would just team up and use the above mentioned methods, it would be a lot harder for people to keep suiciding.
Solecist Project
#257 - 2014-06-17 13:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Auron Black wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:

No, they don't have to. I don't have to either.
Nobody has to. That's the point.


Yeah, you kinda do. It's pretty hard to tank them in any kind of ship you would fly as a suicide ganker.

Yes, they can be tanked in, for example, a T3 or a command ship or some battleships. But who the **** is going to fly one of those as a suicide ganker? You'd have to be insane.

And if you mean evading them, no, you can't do it in a battleship either, unless you fit it to align more quickly than is normal.

But if you're going to stay in open space with a neg ten sec status, you have to be in a pod where anyone who happens along can pop you if they feel like it.

So what do gankers actually do? You use a neutral Orca, or have someone bring you a ship in a safe spot, where you sit with your pod until the attack order is given.

And it's easier to just dock up until the time is right.


Quote:

Removal of faction police would make it even EASIER than it is already
and I will never ever speak for this, because it's dumbing down the game!


You want to know what's really dumbing down the game? The kind of player who wants to have NPCs do their jobs for them. The kind of player who thinks they can abandon their own responsibility to defend themselves.


But you can't cry about not being able to attack suicide gankers since they always dock up, and then vigorously defend the mechanic that causes them to dock up in the first place. Look past your own nose.


If you want players to counter gank and set traps then give us something worth ganking. We aren't going to set up traps or spend hours sitting on a gate in hopes of catching a couple 10m destroyers.

Sure you "can" attack a suicide ganker but the question becomes why bother? It's boring, unprofitable, and wont ever accomplish anything.

That's only true when it comes to those who hide in station all day.

I've been hunted dayin and dayout, because I refused to hide.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#258 - 2014-06-17 13:35:34 UTC
Auron Black wrote:
If you want players to counter gank and set traps then give us something worth ganking. We aren't going to set up traps or spend hours sitting on a gate in hopes of catching a couple 10m destroyers.
Go after their logistics chain either with guns or via the market. Their ships and guns don't appear from nowhere, they have to be shipped in or purchased.

Quote:
Sure you "can" attack a suicide ganker but the question becomes why bother? It's boring, unprofitable, and wont ever accomplish anything.
In other words it's too much effort to do it yourself, you want others to do it for you Roll

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#259 - 2014-06-17 13:45:17 UTC
Auron Black wrote:


If you want players to counter gank and set traps then give us something worth ganking. We aren't going to set up traps or spend hours sitting on a gate in hopes of catching a couple 10m destroyers.

Sure you "can" attack a suicide ganker but the question becomes why bother? It's boring, unprofitable, and wont ever accomplish anything.


The simple and -only- reason that white knighting sucks and doesn't motivate people like me to do it, is because I cannot be bothered defending afk pilots.

otherwise the initial strategy is not hard, cloaked warpin provider, alpha boats that move quickly (hi tornado!), kill off part of the dps before they can finish the freighter. the game would become interesting not when you broke up a bunch of ganks, but when the gankers start to respond to you, or when the gankers recognize that d-scan of 10 tornados flitting about has to be dealt with before ganking can commence, or they need to bring ridiculous excess of pilots which limits the simultaneous locations and total ganks achieved in a day since they all get GCC on the 1 gank.

I don't know why you think it needs to be profitable, ie there are thousands of pilots like me that are basically post-isk and don't care but honestly protecting afk pilots so they can continue to fly self-entitled in the way they do, just isn't a worthy cause.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2014-06-17 13:55:06 UTC
Think of gankers as player-run CONCORD. DISCORD, if you will.


Like CONCORD, they warp in at the scene of the crime.

For CONCORD, PVP is the crime. For DISCORD, carebearing.

Like CONCORD, they try to kill the offender as fast as they can.

CONCORD doesn't give 'gudfites', neither do players. 100% successful kill rate is the only goal of both organizations.

Once the offender is dead, they are no longer needed. CONCORD idles by 'hiding' behind their invulnerability, players go hide and reship in stations.


CONCORD rules highsec, even though it's name isn't in the top left corner*.

DISCORD (or whatever they choose to call themselves) is investing people, time and ISK to claim some highsec for themselves, in the exact same fashion.


Emergent gameplay, much?



*Except maybe a system or two, iirc

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!