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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

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Author
CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#181 - 2013-10-10 22:00:45 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Morphisat wrote:
This doesn't answer any questions at all. What ties does CCP have with Somer Blink ? First the weird community spotlight, then the lottery, followed by Billion isk ships.



This has been asked several times since page 1, but it conveniently remains unanswered.



I've answered this but I can clarify. It had to do with timing, our impression of their overall track record and capability, their niche, and habit of sponsoring events...to name a few. This mixed into a feeling that we should contact them and do stuff with them around EVE Vegas and upcoming tournaments. One thing we are doing more of and looking to do more of is E-sports and online tournaments and if you look at any team sport today you see a lot of betting sites doing sponsorship as that makes sense in sports...so it's just a relationship that we wanted to explore and which we will continue exploring. Doesn't take away from anything other people are doing that is totally different and brings a different kind of value to our universe.

Regarding the rewards specifically, we've said we'll reconsider our approach there.

p.s. What was weird about the Community Spotlight? :P

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard

Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#182 - 2013-10-10 22:02:10 UTC
DJ FunkyBacon wrote:
http://funkybacon.blogspot.com/2013/10/learning-from-past-and-moving-forward.html

My thoughts moving forward. I know some of you in Reykjavik have already seen it, but wanted to make sure I included it in your thread here too. Thanks you guys for pausing to put some thought into this.


Dam Funky, shameless plug, shouldn't you use the eve radio forums for that ?

Also, in before any CSM member post, maybe they do not missed their old job description .... Cool

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF

Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-10-10 22:04:16 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
also, generally, the people in the poker tournament put some extra effort in (you know, turning up to the poker tournament, and winning it) vs somer doing nothing that isn't day-to-day business for them.


You make it sound like as if creating and maintaining a well know eve online fansite + infrastructure and handling with employees is effortless.


This is a good point actually. While we totally understand that everyone has different opinions on different projects, there's no denying that it's not an everyday task to build something that a lot of our players like and use regularly. That goes for a lot of our fansites and other contributors. I'm constantly amazed at the sheer number of high level stuff we see coming from our community members.


No one is debating the effort. The point is they are doing it for profit and they are making a huge profit already. They do not need the additional profit handed to them by CCP. You are doing enough promoting them as is.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2013-10-10 22:05:26 UTC
End conclusion; the ships have been given out as prizes and as community rewards over 100 times before. Obviously the ships nor their value were EVER an issue before. Anyone screaming this is about the huge value of these ships can buzz off right now.

The core of this entire thing is simple; it's the perceived unfairness in peoples mind where an entity that is already making tons of money is getting tons more money for free. Even though its not tons of money, it's a ship with no real value.

"They don't deserve it! They take peoples money!"

It's a ridiculous statement really. And frankly it disgusts me that players of a game are bashing on the game's developer and ordering them who they can and can not reward. Because again; this isn't about the prizes given out. It never was. It's about who got them.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums

Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#185 - 2013-10-10 22:06:24 UTC
[quote=CCP Guard Also since we discussed "soulbound" items (heh I said this word on the EVE forums)
[/quote]


PURGE THE UNCLEAN







(have been clean since 2007)




I support the idea of ingame monuments. Like many other have pointed out though, you need to be VERY careful about rewarding for-profit or political entities. Groups like Chribba, RvB, EVE Uni, and so on are very apolitical and oriented towards providing a service to the community. Groups like SOMER Blink and TEST or Goonswarm have very specific goals meant to benefit their membership over non-members. Which is fine but as many have pointed out these entities are competing against each other in the sandbox, so getting what amounts to help from God is going to be frowned upon by the playerbase.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#186 - 2013-10-10 22:08:47 UTC
Buzz Madullier wrote:
Gogela wrote:
...something about pineapple pizza, i think.

Are you a magician? I just put a Hawaiian Pizza in the oven. :O

I know some tricks, but I'm no space wizardBlink

...you know that sounds really good to me right now. Hawaiian pizza for dinner it is! Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Garandras
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-10-10 22:10:49 UTC
I say keep giving out ingame items to people/corps that put a effort into EvE

IWS is a status item.. if you see someone flying one its a mark that they have been reconised by the CCP (given they are the origonal owner)

Also the IWS has less of a impact on the EvE ecconomy than Plex..
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#188 - 2013-10-10 22:10:51 UTC
Gogela wrote:
Buzz Madullier wrote:
Gogela wrote:
...something about pineapple pizza, i think.

Are you a magician? I just put a Hawaiian Pizza in the oven. :O

I know some tricks, but I'm no space wizardBlink

...you know that sounds really good to me right now. Hawaiian pizza for dinner it is! Big smile



with or without slugs?(mushroom)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#189 - 2013-10-10 22:13:29 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Buzz Madullier wrote:
Gogela wrote:
...something about pineapple pizza, i think.

Are you a magician? I just put a Hawaiian Pizza in the oven. :O

I know some tricks, but I'm no space wizardBlink

...you know that sounds really good to me right now. Hawaiian pizza for dinner it is! Big smile

with or without slugs?(mushroom)

With. Definately. If I only get two toppings I usually go w/ pepperoni and mushroom. All pizzas require mushrooms. I didn't make the rules...

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#190 - 2013-10-10 22:16:55 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Because again; this isn't about the prizes given out. It never was. It's about who got them.


Correct. Which is why CCP should refrain from giving anything to anyone ever again. Then no one need experience the sheer amount of raw, jealous butthurt that has been displayed over the past couple of weeks.

Way to go, CCP. You have indirectly provided a 4th quarter windfall to hemorrhoid creme manufacturers.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2013-10-10 22:19:32 UTC
As an alternative to giving unique items, why not give people a unique tag or something. In reality what good is a unique ship if you can never show it off? The second you undock in it people just want to kill the thing for teh lulz.

Having a tag by your name somewhere would, at least to me, mean much much more in terms of recognition from CCP than an in-game item ever would. And at least that is something you can easily show off without even trying.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums

ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#192 - 2013-10-10 22:22:53 UTC
Am I the only one who doesn't care as i'm not a self entitled whiney ***** like the rest of the uber mad posters?

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.

CCP Guard
C C P
C C P Alliance
#193 - 2013-10-10 22:23:33 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I'd like a little more information on the SOMER lottery issue specifically as that was the really immense giveaway here and it's not really well addressed. Specifically, why an in-game business was given such immense prizes as "a fansite" that wound up making them almost certainly literally trillions of isk. It's not really addressed at all in your post: no indication of why SOMER, no indication of what process went on here and why the CSM was never consulted, no indication of what other "fansites" have gotten these sort of things.

It's not just that SOMER got the lottery gifts. It's that they were absolutely stupendously massive. There's also the seperate problem of Navigator officially declaring them Not A Scam.

The IWS issue would not have been nearly as big an issue without that: it's that both happened, and that the lottery gift to SOMER was already absurdly out of line. The IWS issue exacerbated the lottery issue, it wasn't the main problem.


I can probably shed a bit of light on that although Navigator touched on that in his announcement following what was going to be the Gold Magnate event.

Why SOMER? Well, they are really popular and they have supported a ton of events so we wanted to explore what we could do with them. Their influence in the community is significant for the same reason that they are space rich - because they're good at what they do.

In the statement we go into who else have gotten the ISWs and also what sort of giveways we usually extend to fansites.

As we said, we agree with you that we went too fast and that's why we need to re-think this whole thing. We need to keep the CSM more involved, their input is invaluable.



1. Somer did not support any events the eve community and it players did by playing a out of game gambling lottery.

2. They used the profits the took as the house to gain your favor and then gain legitimacy as a trusted CCP site to further there ability to make more isk.

3. So is Somer Blink a CCP owned Fansite? If not they are in the sandbox and are now 100% CCP approved and that my friend is more valuable then any ship or ingame item. Every player of this game will see somer and in turn see CCP. I guess all we need now is a eve player who started playing eve to kick his gambling habit to start playing somer and commit suicide over losing all his isk and then blaming CCP. Then we will see how much support CCP wants to give somer.

4. Running a penny lottery is not hard CCP so why don't you run it yourself?

On and On


In the same sense you could say that CCP didn't support SOMER, the players did :). Not trying to be a smartass, I promise, ...just a little late night philosophy.

And I know you are less than happy about the way this went down. I get that, the sandbox is sensitive and complex and we're going to be taking a careful look at how we step in it as we've said.

Betting mechanics could be an interesting mechanic in the game but so far we haven't gotten around to prioritizing any such thing. Like with many other things, our community has beaten us to the punch.

CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer | @CCP_Guard

Kregan Gadhar
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#194 - 2013-10-10 22:31:37 UTC
I'm sure this is about to get me some flames, but here goes anyways.

What is deemed a fansite?

I have paid for a corp website that the sole operation behind it is Eve related. Not open to the public like many other alliance/corp sites have theirs hidden. But there is game content in the site that isn't on Eve forums. There are things my members can see or do that they would have to write a program themselves to figure out if other sites don't have something like it.

There are director level things that we are able to keep up with based on the API key, thanks to one of the directors abilities to program, that isn't available on any outside site. Which all my guys know who that director is.

Where do you even draw those lines? I don't get isk for it or cash. It adds a bonus for people who have access. It is all about Eve with the exception of the Off Topics forum which even Eve Forums have. There are audio files talking about Eve things.

I don't care if I see anything from CCP on the ordeal and honestly even if it hit every criteria I wouldn't hold my breath. As much as I enjoy this game and it has held my attention for many of years, the shear ability to award/benefit the few over the many has been staggering over the years.

As has been stated, it is one thing to give awards at an Eve event that everyone in theory has an opportunity to show up at. Financial, job or family set aside, because those are separate issues to that kind of thing. If it is announced and the ability to get there is possible, that is one thing. Giving away things either through the lottery give away, or as a prize recognition that can benefit unfairly is really the issue.

Clearly I don't see this as a T20 issue revisited because that was a whole different ordeal altogether and it seems like these new policies being put into place could be a good thing. When you spring it on a group that has had things going one way for so long and don't announce things can be different, it leaves a bad taste. Seems like favoritism is being placed on people who are hidden behind alt names in a random selection system setup that at the end of the day is controlled by a person. Been an issue here almost from the start with CCP giving ships to be lotto'ed off and not seeing that it would only continue into handing out behind the scenes even more ships isn't just bad judgement. There is a point where it seems to be that it didn't matter how the community felt, but what CCP thought the few deserved despite the outrage of the many.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#195 - 2013-10-10 22:32:37 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
also, generally, the people in the poker tournament put some extra effort in (you know, turning up to the poker tournament, and winning it) vs somer doing nothing that isn't day-to-day business for them.


You make it sound like as if creating and maintaining a well know eve online fansite + infrastructure and handling with employees is effortless.


This is a good point actually. While we totally understand that everyone has different opinions on different projects, there's no denying that it's not an everyday task to build something that a lot of our players like and use regularly. That goes for a lot of our fansites and other contributors. I'm constantly amazed at the sheer number of high level stuff we see coming from our community members.



How is it any different to running an alliance with forums, mumble, support services, politics, metagaming etc? It's creating content, takes work, gets in the news. I fail to see how you think it's at all defensible to give 1 person items which they can then sell and potentially do something like buy a small fleet of supercaps with. What would have CCP done if somer put those ships up for gambling, made a trillion profit off them at no loss to himself, then given it to say PL to go and evict an alliance from it's sov? 1 trillion would have covered all the losses from the fountain war on both sides.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#196 - 2013-10-10 22:33:28 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
End conclusion; the ships have been given out as prizes and as community rewards over 100 times before. Obviously the ships nor their value were EVER an issue before. Anyone screaming this is about the huge value of these ships can buzz off right now.
This is a logical fallacy. The majority of people have not been aware of the earlier reward give-aways, mostly because CCP never announced them. Their use as prizes was known but has nothing to do with this issue. A reward for which the recipient is chosen by CCP is very different from a prize for which everyone can compete under a known set of rules. Therefore an item might be completely fine as a prize, but not acceptable as a reward.

Quote:
The core of this entire thing is simple; it's the perceived unfairness in peoples mind where an entity that is already making tons of money is getting tons more money for free. Even though its not tons of money, it's a ship with no real value.
You're wrong about 2 things here:
1. It's not important if Somer is already making tons of money. The important thing is that they're operating for-profit and in competition with others. If they're successful or not in this competition doesn't matter.
2. The ship has real value. The value of a thing is what someone is willing to pay you for it. That's the only valid definition of value. Incidentally people were willing to pay ~20b for IshuScorps.

Quote:
It's a ridiculous statement really. And frankly it disgusts me that players of a game are bashing on the game's developer and ordering them who they can and can not reward. Because again; this isn't about the prizes given out. It never was. It's about who got them.
Wrong again, it is about both. Firstly, it is about the rewards which can influence the balance of the sandbox because of their value. And secondly, it is also about who got them, though not that is was specifically Somer, but in a more abstract sense that it was an in-game competitive for-profit organization.
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2013-10-10 22:40:32 UTC
I've bitched enough so thought I'd pop in and say thanks for listening CCP! Gifts and thank yous are fine long as they don't give arbitrary in-game leg ups to favoured groups.
Cameron Freerunner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2013-10-10 22:41:23 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
p.s. What was weird about the Community Spotlight? :P

It's good he brought up the spotlight. The Community Spotlight also has no known rules or criteria. Each one amounts to an advertisement and that's the specific reason that I (as my alt Zaxix) poked CCP about Red Frog. By getting an RF spotlight, I accomplished a long held goal to get Red Frog's name on the login page. Frankly they don't need the advertising at this stage of the game, but for anyone not already familiar with EVE's courier services, it got the Frog some serious mind share and was a de facto CCP plug for the Frog.
Alpheias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#199 - 2013-10-10 22:45:06 UTC
As a longtime subscriber and as a player, I wish to extend my thanks to CCP that continue to ensure the greatest entertainment there is to be had from a forum and that is the greatest reward I personally could ever ask for.

It is like symphony orchestra, with CCP conducting and the musicians are goons, goon alts, some more goon alts, goon pets and wannabe goons.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Kosakei Sanko
Interstellar Vacancy
#200 - 2013-10-10 22:46:58 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't care as i'm not a self entitled whiney ***** like the rest of the uber mad posters?


I dunno. That sounded slightly mad to me.

Gimme a unique T2 Khanid battleship called the Castigator and I'd be willing to forget all this happened.