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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

First post First post First post
Author
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2013-10-10 20:43:16 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
I'm taking a dinner break. Going home for pizza and then I'll check in again! Thanks for the responses so far.

if you have pineapple as a topping, you're a terrible person.


Oops


pineapple and anchovy, best pizza combo
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Kate stark
#142 - 2013-10-10 20:43:33 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kate stark wrote:


1) plex isn't restricted to who gets it.
2) plex aren't free handouts from ccp.

two very important differences.

2) They are to certain media organizers and community sites, and have been on numerous occasions for quite some time.

Look, we can say "no CCP involvement in helping fan sites," but that would probably end up being a net-negative. These giveaways can have a net-positive effect, when given to the right communities/events.

But the magnitude of the reward should be kept in check. No one would care if Somer got 20 exotic dancers in-game from CCP. Everyone apparently cared when Somer was to get even a single Gold Magnate (enough for CCP to take that one off the table REAL quick).

Clearly, the magnitude of the reward is something that is quite relevant.


there's a difference between "here, have a plex" and "here, let us give you a free account". i don't know how media accounts etc work but i'd imagine they're the latter not the former. and that's great because it doesn't **** with the sandbox.

pretty sure the magnate had some kind of lore issue with it too? or a story about there only being 1, or something equally noteworthy to do with it's rarity. i'll be honest; i don't really have much of an issue with the lottery prizes as i do with "here have a bunch of stuff that we're not going to tell anyone about".

i think while we disagree in the implementation, there is an issue that needs looking at.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

Kate stark
#143 - 2013-10-10 20:44:56 UTC
J3ssica Alba wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
I'm taking a dinner break. Going home for pizza and then I'll check in again! Thanks for the responses so far.

if you have pineapple as a topping, you're a terrible person.


Oops


pineapple and anchovy, best pizza combo


you're a terrible person, and you're wrong.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#144 - 2013-10-10 20:45:23 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
CCP Guard wrote:
I'm taking a dinner break. Going home for pizza and then I'll check in again! Thanks for the responses so far.

if you have pineapple as a topping, you're aN AMAZING person.


Oops


fix'd
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#145 - 2013-10-10 20:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
CCP Guard wrote:
I'm taking a dinner break. Going home for pizza and then I'll check in again! Thanks for the responses so far.


what kind of pizza?

edit: guard trolled his own thread by bringing up pizza :)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#146 - 2013-10-10 20:45:55 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kate stark wrote:


1) plex isn't restricted to who gets it.
2) plex aren't free handouts from ccp.

two very important differences.

2) They are to certain media organizers and community sites, and have been on numerous occasions for quite some time.

Look, we can say "no CCP involvement in helping fan sites," but that would probably end up being a net-negative. These giveaways can have a net-positive effect, when given to the right communities/events.

But the magnitude of the reward should be kept in check. No one would care if Somer got 20 exotic dancers in-game from CCP. Everyone apparently cared when Somer was to get even a single Gold Magnate (enough for CCP to take that one off the table REAL quick).

Clearly, the magnitude of the reward is something that is quite relevant.

Kate stark makes a really good point. I mean, let's say CCP hires cerberus to do another of his awesome ship sites. They pay him 5 grand. He takes the paycheck and spends it all on PLEX. ...so about 250 PLEX. What's the problem? That's reasonable. It's not even about the magnitude. Anybody could buy that much PLEX given the money and motivation. It's not an advantage. The only problem is if there's something given to them that's otherwise unobtainable to the other players. In the case of the IWS, it's not that big of a deal honestly. It's not a T2 BPO before invention, as some have likened it to. not even close. The ONLY problem is one of principal. So wtf over... PLEX, even in bulk, seems perfectly fine to me.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Careby
#147 - 2013-10-10 20:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Careby
BigCountry wrote:
First off , Somer Blink didnt get these ships, the individuals who work for SB did ... that doesnt mean that is ISK in SB pocket..

Individuals who were being paid for their efforts. If they earned a bonus, why wasn't it paid by their employer?

BigCountry wrote:
Second .. they do contribute to the EVE community by backing almost every single contest or competition that people do..

They "give back" a fraction of the ISK they collect. Their real profit is not in ISK. It's in real life cash money. The ISK they collect is a means to an end. Sponsoring an event generates more business. While such sponsorship is a boon to the event, it represents ISK collected from and then partly refunded to the EVE community.

BigCountry wrote:
Third.. I like the idea that CCP gives away something cool , even an ingame item... somethign not everyone has.. No where does it say CCP is obligated to maintain the value of "rare" items.. especially for an item they previously stated for an item that would be gifted to people as thank you items...

Fourth ... Haters and Cry Babbies , most people wanna cry about how much somer makes, what about the cost of running their site?? what about allll the free stuff they give away not only on their site , but to other people who run events and what not ...
SB makes the money they do , cuz they are smart and found a way to make money, while letting people gamble and basicly get ships for less then they could ingame, with a chance...

Yes, Somer is smart, and yes it is a very slick operation. Presumably it generates enough income to pay the cost of running the site and enough to stay in business. No argument there. But I wouldn't call it philanthropy.
Gougeres
Ad Exxitium
Vel Ad Exxitium.
#148 - 2013-10-10 20:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Gougeres
Edit - Removed my post
Pharill
An Eye For An Eye
Phoebe Freeport Republic
#149 - 2013-10-10 20:53:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pharill
K0ttDiledundee wrote:
What about those of us who have played for many many years without breaks in our subscription.........where's our special rare items? We've spent years generating real content in the form of battles and participation in your game and we dont even get a thanjs. All sb does is rake in isk through controling a lottery with stacked odds in favor of fake/alt characters. And now they've been given even more isk. Sad ccp just sad.



*ahem* cry, cry, whine, moan, etc etc.

This it what it boils down to. "ME ME ME, I I I"

Anyone who feels like this .. Stick your rails up your rear and hit F1. CCP is a company and as such can do pretty much anything they damn well please with their product.

I have zero, zilch, nada issues with them giving away these ships. They are worthless in game and only worth isk because in game fools are willing to throw away billions on them. Here's a thought take the 15bill you're going to spend on that IWS and throw it into BLINK. Even if you hate to gamble I bet you can turn a profit.

Oh and the complaint "They're for profit. You're making them richer" That's like giving Scrooge McDuck a million bucks and letting people say you made them rich. He's already rich! 300-600bill is a effing drop in Somers wallet.

So CCP you want people to shut up about the IWS give one to everyone, tha'll shut em' up. I fully support what you are doing, I personally don't really care who or how many of the IWS' you give away. And do you have to tell me about it? Heck no. Why? Because honestly it doesn't affect a single individual player in the entire cluster.
Kate stark
#150 - 2013-10-10 20:53:36 UTC
Gogela wrote:
PLEX, even in bulk, seems perfectly fine to me.


no, he's right with respect to handing out plex as rewards. whether scorpions, or a stack of plex; ccp are still giving players a fist full of isk and that fucks with the sandbox.

on the other hand, people buying and selling plex isn't an issue.

here's why; plex spawned by CCP and given out is a resource that has no limit and provides wealth in conjunction with the pilots day to day activities. plex purchased by your average joe eve player is limited to the cash in their bank account; and you can either earn money at work to turn plex in to isk, or play eve (don't argue that you can do both, because you're either going to get fired or make **** isk/hour to the point of irrelevance) and hence in some capacity plex via that method is limited.

however this really isn't about how plex works and lets shut up now please?

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.

E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2013-10-10 20:55:19 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
Livonia Velorea wrote:
Out of game only or vanity trash like:

- A piece of Steve
- Band of Brothers Director Access Key
- Lost reminder to pay sov bill


What is the differents between those items and a IWS?


you can fly an iws





though isk wise they could have the same value
E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2013-10-10 20:57:22 UTC
out of game items only
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#153 - 2013-10-10 20:57:32 UTC  |  Edited by: l0rd carlos
Gougeres wrote:
Edit - Removed my post.

Edit: he removed his post while I was answering.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#154 - 2013-10-10 20:57:45 UTC
Kate stark wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Kate stark wrote:


1) plex isn't restricted to who gets it.
2) plex aren't free handouts from ccp.

two very important differences.

2) They are to certain media organizers and community sites, and have been on numerous occasions for quite some time.

Look, we can say "no CCP involvement in helping fan sites," but that would probably end up being a net-negative. These giveaways can have a net-positive effect, when given to the right communities/events.

But the magnitude of the reward should be kept in check. No one would care if Somer got 20 exotic dancers in-game from CCP. Everyone apparently cared when Somer was to get even a single Gold Magnate (enough for CCP to take that one off the table REAL quick).

Clearly, the magnitude of the reward is something that is quite relevant.


there's a difference between "here, have a plex" and "here, let us give you a free account". i don't know how media accounts etc work but i'd imagine they're the latter not the former. and that's great because it doesn't **** with the sandbox.

pretty sure the magnate had some kind of lore issue with it too? or a story about there only being 1, or something equally noteworthy to do with it's rarity. i'll be honest; i don't really have much of an issue with the lottery prizes as i do with "here have a bunch of stuff that we're not going to tell anyone about".

i think while we disagree in the implementation, there is an issue that needs looking at.


They extend the game time on one of your accounts. You can nominate which (as that account has certain limitations, such as not being allowed to run for CSM, and so on. I nominated a different account, as you might expect.)



The Magnate was a problem, due to lore issues.

I have fewer issues with Somer giveaway of other things. Something to know: Somer never had them. CCP delivered the prizes directly, so Somer had no option to not give them away. And I don't doubt that they kept track of who the alts of the staff of Blink are, wrt to who got the prizes.

tbh, the current price of the IScorp is just a teeny tiny bit crazy.


Keeping this kind of thing to vanity items works for me.





Disclosure: I was one of the winners (Around 300 tickets, if memory serves). And I have a media account.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#155 - 2013-10-10 20:57:47 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Thanks for the statement. However, it doesn't particularly address the glaring fact that SOMER received free trips to Fanfest and unique ships for a "fair" contest "for the community" that CCP has no control over or audit power for. Further, the contest is inherently biased toward people who blow billions of isk playing blinks, giving them a disproportionate amount of entries for unique ships only obtainable through this medium (not to mention making SOMER even more isk), as well as giving a player-run, for-profit corporation the ability to decide who can even have a chance at winning it, considering SOMER Blink solely and unilaterally has the power to ban accounts at will.

The fact that you guys earlier compared SOMER Blink to a charity is shocking, off-putting and shows a deep disconnection between what CCP believes "a community service" is and what the players do. Many players believe that "a community service" is something that actually enriches the game or provides content to it. SOMER Blink is a third party website created solely to print isk for its founder. They provide no services in game. At all. (This doesn't even to speak to the fact that serious concerns exist for many players to the legitimacy of the SOMER Blink lottery system. For example, how is it that the player with the most blinks won, Replacement 234, doesn't appear in the most blinks played? Is Replacement 234, with an win rate at a minimum of 32.7%+ simply luckier than the next-highest winner, Featious who has a 28.8% win rate? Or the highest winner (with over 9 TRILLION isk more than Replacement 234) doesn't even appear to have played or won the most blinks?)

The difference in your example of "go to game trade show, get swag" and the SOMERgate fiasco is that as players we can choose to attend game trade show--at our wills--and get swag. We don't, however, have the luxury of playing blinks if the account is banned. Further, you're not limiting the prize pool to players attending EVE Vegas, as your trade show example would indicate. It is open to anyone willing to blow billions of isk on blinks. Even then, they would still have an inequitable chance of winning against other players who have a disproportionate amount of tickets. Your basic example of simply playing a promo blink and having an entry is pedantic at best and deceitful at worst, considering that everyone knows that blink players will have hundreds or thousands of tickets entered.

It's good that you've put future plans on hold for hopefully a better process. It's unfortunate, though, that you decided to stop recognizing community sites short of providing rewards to meaningful providers of content in the game, instead opting to enrich a for-profit corp's wallet instead. The fact that you haven't pulled the unique rewards, given the glaring deficiencies in using SOMER Blink as the provider of the contest, shows me that CCP has only a passing concern to the legitimate grievances we players have. CCP owes nothing to SOMER Blink, and if this were believed by CCP, it would have pulled the unique and fantastical prizes in favor of something more traditional like PLEX packs or Collector's Editions.



Well said and sorry the damage is now increasing. The fact there was no community session during the CSM summer summit is at best a slap in the face to all of us and to why the CSM was started. You guys had a chance to run this by them 2 months prior to EVE VEGAS and didn't That was flat out wrong. I am holding back so much more and the more I read the sadder I get.
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
#156 - 2013-10-10 20:57:52 UTC
l0rd carlos wrote:
As a fan site owner I got goodies worth of about ~1B and felt honored.
I sold the items and gave my corp mates some free ships, which leads to more PvP ingame.
See and this is exactly why this was such a bad idea. CCP is financing the PvP activities of a group picked by CCP. That's the last thing that should ever happen in a sandbox and it clearly shows how these give-aways can influence the competitive surroundings of everyone in the game. Some random person might have gotten his ship blown up only because CCP financed your PvP.

Crasniya wrote:
Character-binding things is very much not in the spirit of EVE, and I don't think that should ever happen.
When I say character-bound stuff I don't actually envision soulbound ships (which won't happen anyway if only for the extra programming work), I rather envision something like a medal which I think is not un-Eve-ish in any way.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#157 - 2013-10-10 20:59:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Gogela
Kate stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
PLEX, even in bulk, seems perfectly fine to me.


no, he's right with respect to handing out plex as rewards. whether scorpions, or a stack of plex; ccp are still giving players a fist full of isk and that fucks with the sandbox.

on the other hand, people buying and selling plex isn't an issue.

here's why; plex spawned by CCP and given out is a resource that has no limit and provides wealth in conjunction with the pilots day to day activities. plex purchased by your average joe eve player is limited to the cash in their bank account; and you can either earn money at work to turn plex in to isk, or play eve (don't argue that you can do both, because you're either going to get fired or make **** isk/hour to the point of irrelevance) and hence in some capacity plex via that method is limited.

however this really isn't about how plex works and lets shut up now please?

I explained how it works. Why don't you explain to me the difference between CCP contracting a community site, paying the developer in cash, and that developer turning around and buying a truckload of PLEX, and CCP just paying the community site developer in PLEX. Do it. What the hell is the difference?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Careby
#158 - 2013-10-10 21:02:34 UTC
Gogela wrote:
The Devs get a cash reward for building the game. The web designer got a cash reward for building this forum. WTF is the difference if they want to pay people cash for building a community site? ...

Cash is an out-of-game "reward". I don't see anything wrong with CCP giving cash to anyone and everyone they want, for any reason. For one thing, it would cost them real money, unlike in-game items which they are in the unique position of being able to spawn at will.

But when you give cash to someone, they are in the same position as the rest of us. Some of us have less money and some have more, but we each decide how much of our money to take from our real life wallet and put into this game. That's fundamentally different from an in-game reward, which enhances the recipient's in-game wealth or experience at no personal cost.

Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2013-10-10 21:03:05 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:

Should we stick to out-of-game things only? Create non-transferrable in-game items as rewards? Give no personal rewards and only prizes? Only items below a certain expected ISK value? Always give out tons of stuff at once so early recipients can’t cash out? List all rewards publicly?

First and foremost, whenever in-game anything goes from dev spawned to players hands is should be public knowledge. Absolutely. Big promotions like the giveaways at fanfest and gamescom have publicity, selective things like the IScorps should as well. It doesn't need to be a big devblog announcement or anything, just a dev thread on the forums that you post in whenever a reward gift is given would be enough. As long as it's public and the general players have a chance to know about it soon after the recipients.

Only items below an ISK value is impossible, because as long as something is unique it has value to some players. Non-transferable items would be a great idea for this type of thing, but not if it would require new work to implement to a game where everything is transferable.


What I would encourage you to do is think a little bit about how you define "fansite". When us goons asked "why not Zoidberg Goonfleet?", it was not serious. We don't expect to get gifts in return for running one of eve's highest traffic non-profit websites. But Somer Blink is a for-profit enterprise. I think you've given things to GTC sellers (to use as prizes for their customers) before, so giving promotional items to Somer isn't unprecedented. But I think many people feel it's a bit crass to give Somer the same items in the same method you use to reward real volunteers.
Kate stark
#160 - 2013-10-10 21:03:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kate stark
Gogela wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
PLEX, even in bulk, seems perfectly fine to me.


no, he's right with respect to handing out plex as rewards. whether scorpions, or a stack of plex; ccp are still giving players a fist full of isk and that fucks with the sandbox.

on the other hand, people buying and selling plex isn't an issue.

here's why; plex spawned by CCP and given out is a resource that has no limit and provides wealth in conjunction with the pilots day to day activities. plex purchased by your average joe eve player is limited to the cash in their bank account; and you can either earn money at work to turn plex in to isk, or play eve (don't argue that you can do both, because you're either going to get fired or make **** isk/hour to the point of irrelevance) and hence in some capacity plex via that method is limited.

however this really isn't about how plex works and lets shut up now please?

I explained how it works. Why don't you explain to me the difference between CCP contracting a community site, paying the developer in cash, and that developer turning around and buying a truckload of PLEX, and CCP just paying the community site developer in PLEX. Do it. What the hell is the difference?


read the post you quoted for the explanation of the difference!
also, stop derailing the thread. this isn't about how plex works.

Yay, this account hasn't had its signature banned. or its account, if you're reading this.