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Announcement regarding rewards and prizes to fansites and third-party contributors

First post First post First post
Author
Frying Doom
#201 - 2013-10-10 22:47:44 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
The core of this entire thing is simple; it's the perceived unfairness in peoples mind where an entity that is already making tons of money is getting tons more money for free. Even though its not tons of money, it's a ship with no real value.

Just like a stupid picture of sunflowers, absolutely worthless, its just canvas and some paint after all.

Until it becomes valuable just because its rare and Van Gogh is dead.

Any item that is rare in this game is valuable to collectors, saying it has no real value is ridiculous.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Zoe Armageddon
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2013-10-10 22:56:59 UTC
Without trying to go deep on explaining why, my preference for these types of rewards in future would run along the lines of:


  • Untradable/otherwise technically valueless (and not able to be made valuable by demand) items or indicators of some kind to recognize player contributions. I was thinking there could be a faction that people could have standings towards, it could even give them a few perks in the right locations or something, but, unless that player sold their character entirely, which would be an unstoppable out of game action anyway, these perks would have no value to compete over in the economy.
  • PLEX is a pretty safe and stable straight gift, especially given the total existing PLEX vs. the rate of gift giving, it would have no measurable or detectable impact on in-game economy and also represents a pretty predictable and comprehensible value, even if players openly brag about it. "It's just a plex, big deal, anyone can get one".
  • But if you want something really clearly visible, such as a skinned ship, I would suggest one of two things. Either you make the ships unsellable, or (my preference) you make the skin an effect that appears on a normal ship, attached to the player, with their option to disable it if they want. So the dudes flying around in BRIGHT SHINY GOLD MYRMIDONS or something, everyone can see right away that they got recognition, but, otherwise it's just another ship-in-game. The side benefit is the player won't be afraid to actually fly that ship since the effect could show up for any new replacement they had to buy as well.
Cameron Freerunner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-10-10 22:58:10 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't care as i'm not a self entitled whiney ***** like the rest of the uber mad posters?

If you didn't care, you wouldn't post.

Complaining about complaining. How meta.
Careby
#204 - 2013-10-10 23:01:10 UTC
I think it would very interesting if CCP would peer into their database and tell us how many of the Ishukone ships are still owned by original recipients AND are not currently listed for sale in the market.

If it's a large proportion, it reinforces the notion that unique gifts are not primarily valued for the ISK they can be traded for. If not, it would indicate that a different mechanism might be better to introduce rare items into the game.

I have seen plenty for sale on the market, but it could be the same ones over and over.

ConranAntoni
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#205 - 2013-10-10 23:02:46 UTC
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
ConranAntoni wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't care as i'm not a self entitled whiney ***** like the rest of the uber mad posters?

If you didn't care, you wouldn't post.

Complaining about complaining. How meta.


Postception.

Empyrean Warriors - Recruiting now.

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#206 - 2013-10-10 23:04:21 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I'd like a little more information on the SOMER lottery issue specifically as that was the really immense giveaway here and it's not really well addressed. Specifically, why an in-game business was given such immense prizes as "a fansite" that wound up making them almost certainly literally trillions of isk. It's not really addressed at all in your post: no indication of why SOMER, no indication of what process went on here and why the CSM was never consulted, no indication of what other "fansites" have gotten these sort of things.

It's not just that SOMER got the lottery gifts. It's that they were absolutely stupendously massive. There's also the seperate problem of Navigator officially declaring them Not A Scam.

The IWS issue would not have been nearly as big an issue without that: it's that both happened, and that the lottery gift to SOMER was already absurdly out of line. The IWS issue exacerbated the lottery issue, it wasn't the main problem.


I can probably shed a bit of light on that although Navigator touched on that in his announcement following what was going to be the Gold Magnate event.

Why SOMER? Well, they are really popular and they have supported a ton of events so we wanted to explore what we could do with them. Their influence in the community is significant for the same reason that they are space rich - because they're good at what they do.

In the statement we go into who else have gotten the ISWs and also what sort of giveways we usually extend to fansites.

As we said, we agree with you that we went too fast and that's why we need to re-think this whole thing. We need to keep the CSM more involved, their input is invaluable.


Before I have had the chance of reading all the other posts I just want to comment: you still don't get it, do you? SOMEr is the WORST "fan site" you could have chosen to "reward" for its contributions to the GAME. I am very sad.
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#207 - 2013-10-10 23:09:49 UTC
ConranAntoni wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:
ConranAntoni wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't care as i'm not a self entitled whiney ***** like the rest of the uber mad posters?

If you didn't care, you wouldn't post.

Complaining about complaining. How meta.


Postception.

FTFY Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2013-10-10 23:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
Not sure if this got missed pre- well earned Pizza break... I'll post again in case it was missed accidentally, if it was intentionally ignored feel free to do so again and sorry for spam.

Plug in Baby wrote:
Thanks for the reponse, although not entirely sure why you bothered thanking the CSM, if their role had any value surely they would have been consulted beforehand.


Just an additional question that has come out of this, apologies if this is off-topic but it seems that any thread with the word Somer in it should be kept to one thread at the moment.

Are Somers GTC selling activities acceptable with regard to the EULA?

I.e. Could I, provided I set up a website:

A) Sell a GTC + 200m ISK for $5 profit

B) Sell a GTC + 200m ISK value of lottery tokens for $5 profit

C) Sell a GTC + 10bn ISK for $200 profit

D) Sell a GTC + 10bn ISK value of lottery tokens for $200 profit


Edit: If there is a maximum markup on GTC price or maximum ISK value that can be gifted with a GTC what are those maximums?

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2013-10-10 23:13:54 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
So, are you totally happy with this whole thing?

No we’re not. While we want to keep rewarding and encouraging projects that add value and are popular with our community, we absolutely agree that it has to happen in a way that the community is on board with, whether that means we have to make big changes or small tweaks.


Could you please touch on the problem where CCP keeps diving into things head first and end up apologizing afterwards, after the damage has been done?

It seems to be a reoccurring theme here where someone in CCP comes up with a brilliant, well intentioned, idea and inevitably fucks it up to the point where people are reaching for the pitchforks and torches, and only then does CCP go to the community for their feedback.

Is CCP intending to change their "do first, ask later" approach for a much more sensible "ask first, commit later" policy? If not, may I suggest this as a priority item over what kind of free stuff you want to give people?
Plug in Baby
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#210 - 2013-10-10 23:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Plug in Baby
oops double post

This is not a forum alt, this is a forum main.

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#211 - 2013-10-10 23:19:54 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Kate stark wrote:
also, generally, the people in the poker tournament put some extra effort in (you know, turning up to the poker tournament, and winning it) vs somer doing nothing that isn't day-to-day business for them.


You make it sound like as if creating and maintaining a well know eve online fansite + infrastructure and handling with employees is effortless.


This is a good point actually. While we totally understand that everyone has different opinions on different projects, there's no denying that it's not an everyday task to build something that a lot of our players like and use regularly. That goes for a lot of our fansites and other contributors. I'm constantly amazed at the sheer number of high level stuff we see coming from our community members.


Please now address the other side of the argument and try not to favour what you have already favoured in order to defend your earlier mistakes.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#212 - 2013-10-10 23:21:17 UTC
Edward Pierce wrote:


Could you please touch on the problem where CCP keeps diving into things head first and end up apologizing afterwards, after the damage has been done?


You assume that it is a problem, or that there was actually any significant damage. Even schoolchildren know that it is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.

As a bonus, CCP now has raw data on how many people will scream bloody murder over things like this in the future, and how it does or does not significantly impact subscription numbers. You can be certain that this data will hold more weight in their decision making process than anything the CSM or anyone else has to say.
Sir Spottington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#213 - 2013-10-10 23:24:14 UTC
bet this giveaway to blink was the EA guys idea

*puts on tinfoil hat*

seriously though, just name a station or statue in game after them or something like that.... or a item like a BLINK gambling guide explaining who they are with a link to blink in the description, like the collectable items and give them to everyone (im sure blink would love this, more people that know about them the more isk they make)

or just give them a trip to your offices in iceland, a fanfest trip, USB rifter, danger game.... out of game stuff that doesn't make them 100's of billions of isk in game.

kinda weird logic to give ships worth tonnes to a corp that already claws in probably more isk than they know what to do with.


Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#214 - 2013-10-10 23:27:00 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Mitch's Forum Alt wrote:
thanks for the dev blog, so far I'm liking what I read. the recent events had me quite alarmed and i did not renew the first round of my accounts that expired, awaiting CCP response first.

so, with the rewards program currently suspended and being looked at again in light of current happenings, i take it that the number of scorpion ishukone watch present in game now will remain stable and any new giveaways will be using new prizes, which are hopefully out of game or non-transferable? as some others mentioned prior, even some plex wouldn't be bad, as those can also be used for stuff like subscription or re-sculpts. just please, no more rare items!


That's what we're pausing until we have a better system the community feels better about; All selective give-aways of rare in-game items.


But that is not all the community is worried about. The give-away of trillions of isk to favoured sites is perhaps an even bigger issue than just rare items being handed over. Please take all issues under consideration.
Deka Ekato
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#215 - 2013-10-10 23:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Deka Ekato
CCP,

IMHO, WTH ????????????? Come on CCP, I don't think you have addressed alot of the community's concerns.

As Somer is a gambling site :

- What was the process that determined that Somer are honest? ( Were they actually audited? )
- CCP Navigator basically declaring that Somer is not a scam, ( IMO, I think it is ).

- Is CCP going to continue to associate with gambling sites?
- Does CCP endorse gambling?

So Somer have sponsered Eve related events and have provided advertising opportunities for Eve.

- What positive contribution to the community have Somer provided?
- How does Somer have the financial ability to do what it does?
- "Is Somer involved in RMT?????????????"AttentionAttentionAttention

- Will CCP eventually end up still providing gambling sites with Eve goodies? ( IMO nothing should be given to any gambling sites ).
- Will CCP decide that Somer is OK and "Hunky Dory", just because it's anothere good means of cash revenue for them?
- Will CCP choose money or "company / personal / game" integrity?

IMO, CCP should distance itself from all gambling sites. ( My apologies to the other gambling sites ).

- How exactly is CCP going to avoid secrecy so as to remain transparent?
- Why not reward the positive community contributors with "out of game" stuff only.

- New rules and guidelines should be set up and introduced.

I'm sure there are, ( sadly ), more issues, but I can't think of them right now.

Please CCP, you have a major mess on your hands. Please, fix it.
Sturmwolke
#216 - 2013-10-10 23:29:00 UTC
This approach of giving rewards to third-party EVE related sites (which has the potential to be converted into ingame isk or create a player advantage) has to stop. You will breed nothing of any real value when you start putting a price reward (read bribe) to fandom. It'll be fertile ground for distrust and alienation between the haves and have nots. It erodes a lot of goodwill towards CCP.

A truly passionate community does need any cajouling, prodding or bribes, to do whatever they do. Remember that.

Find other ways to recognize their contributions without raising the players' hackles. Very simple things like a CCP Recognition Seal which can be displayed on their sites ... an official CCP Fansite Hall of Fame ... unique plaque to display in their Captains Quarters ... an ingame monument somewhere .. etc etc. ... you get the idea. These things will remain immortal until EVE closes down. Your "one time" monetary rewards will be forgotten long before that happens ... now wasn't that a pointless exercise?

Deep down, fans want to be remembered and immortalized in some way or another.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#217 - 2013-10-10 23:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Varius Xeral
I'm satisfied. It was simply a case of not thinking through every possible outcome, which happens to all of us, especially when we're engaged in a process that is meant to generally be positive with no "losers".

Lesson learned, time to move on.

I'm actually somewhat disappointed though, in that I was kind of looking forward to unsubbing from this terrible game that I really don't play, yet will stick around giving CCP my :15bux: because I like them and think they deserve it. Well played, CCP. Well played.

Also, holy cocks, never let CCP Guard leave. His posts are like a cool gentle breeze of soothing mountain air. I feel calm and confident when I know CCP Guard is on the job.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-10-10 23:35:33 UTC
Give the man a raise or a bonus.

(not a guard alt btw)

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#219 - 2013-10-10 23:36:06 UTC
CCP Guard wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If fan-sites etc are rewarded with isk, be it in the form of rare ships or whatever, could it not lead to a situation whereby some folk will learn how to milk-abuse the rewards system?


Not unless we design a bad system :).

But seriously, that's not going to be a problem. We're not novices when it comes to providing incentives. We've had a fansite program since forever that rewards registered fansites that meet our standards with free accounts and we've gotten pretty good at knowing what constitutes a worthy contribution there. Also just so it's clear we don't award straight ISK.


Oh come on! You have given SOMER rare ships that are worth billions and the fact that it can be only won via SOMER raked in god knows how much ISK for SOMET and you call that not rewarding straight ISk ... That is more than a very thin line.
Kirren D'marr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#220 - 2013-10-10 23:57:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirren D'marr
CCP Guard wrote:
We selected to reward SOMER and his staff because the time was right to do stuff with them, Vegas sponsorship being an example. Same story with the SCL which was having an active period and doing really exciting things.


You are still being very vague about what exactly SOMER Blink did to deserve such rewards. Please give a detailed description of what exaclty makes them so deserving.

Note:
- Being "good at what they do" is not a valid reason; what they "do" is make ISK. If you are going to reward them for this, then you must reward every other player organization who earns above a set level of ISK.
- Sponsoring events is also not a valid reason; like any other business, the reward for sponsorship is greater public visibility potentially resulting in additional business. Receiving an advantage over other participants is not a legitimate reward for sponsorship.

It's perfectly clear though that you were not "recognizing" SOMER for anything; by defintion, "recognition" requires some level of public awareness, and whether by intent or neglect, this was all kept under wraps. This has the result of looking a lot like market manipulation in order to favor one particular group of players.

CCP Guard wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
You make it sound like as if creating and maintaining a well know eve online fansite + infrastructure and handling with employees is effortless.


This is a good point actually. While we totally understand that everyone has different opinions on different projects, there's no denying that it's not an everyday task to build something that a lot of our players like and use regularly. That goes for a lot of our fansites and other contributors. I'm constantly amazed at the sheer number of high level stuff we see coming from our community members.


Let's be perfectly clear on one thing: SOMER Blink is NOT a fansite! It is a for-profit business which supports an in-game player organization's activities. Please stop lumping them in with true fansites that actually benefit the community instead of taking from it.

CCP Guard wrote:
Cameron Freerunner wrote:

4. A Dev endorsed a player run lottery and specified that it was totally legitimate. CCP endorsements of player run businesses must never be allowed to happen. Ever. By endorsing one group over another, he has potentially crippled all of the competitors. Who would risk their ISK with anyone else?


Interesting angle actually. Because even when we design a more transparent system around this, it's not ever going to make everyone completely content all the time. But we'll always try to be as fair as we can.


I find it highly disturbing that you consider this an "interesting angle," rather than this being something that was carefully considered before deciding to benefit a single for-profit business to the detriment of their competitors by driving traffic to their site and away from others. This should have been an obvious consequence of the lottery giveaway, yet your response seems to indicate that the thought never occured to you. To top it off, a certain CCP representative's remarks endorsing one particular site (effectively over others) just threw more fuel on the fire, and reeks of a lack of forethought on the effects of your actions as a company on the fairness of the game.

When all of this started, I held off on making any decisions with regards to the continuation of my account until after CCP had a reasonable opportunity to fix the situation. So far, I see no solutions, only PR spin. I'll give it a little more time as my account is not up right away, but if nothing changes soon I will be unsubscribing.

Why a switch on/off? Because the new animation doesn't add anything to gameplay and it's graphically annoying. In other words, it's worse than bad: it's useless. Simple as that.     _ - Kina Ayami_