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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
Rain Kaessinde
Liminal Cloudwatch
#201 - 2015-11-06 13:40:48 UTC
Stan Khashour wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.

3. probly circle from only 2 probes picking up a signature which is pretty far off especially compared to the old circle

Side by side of old circle vs new circle signature is the bookmark in both
Top View

Side View

This is a great illustration of the problem. In the classic map, a ring/circle/two-probe result gives you information that you can use (if you're clever) to reposition your probes almost as effectively as for a point result. The new map appears to always draw a circle in the horizontal plane, with no relationship to the actual signature location or to the probes which produced the hit.

Unrelated, the new map in fullscreen mode used to draw its control bar over other windows, which was convenient as I normally have stuff docked across the top edge of the screen. Now the control bar draws under everything else, so I would have to leave that edge clear if I wanted to use the fullscreen map. An "always on top" toggle would help, but best would be the ability to drag it around to any position on any edge instead of having it stuck at center-top.

The stars might lie, but the numbers never do.

Casey Ambraelle
Almost Dangerous
Stranger Danger.
#202 - 2015-11-06 13:43:41 UTC
Only had one day of use with the new probe interface and have the same complaints about D-Scan color etc that are pretty well documented already. The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that the columns order in the signature list is no longer customizable. I've always had mine ordered Distance, ID, Group, Name, Signal. Now their defaulted to Distance, ID, Name, Group, Signal with no way of changing it that I was able to find. Would really like that functionality to be carried over to the new interface.
Makari Aeron
Winnie Blues and VB Crew
Tactical Supremacy
#203 - 2015-11-06 13:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
I turned off the new scanning wnidow. Those faint green lines with gray background make me think of pre-MS-DOS days and giving me a splitting headache. Can we please go back to an entire red/yellow/green bar? Also, the new scanning window Is most definitely NOT colorblind friendly. The old version was at last passable.

TL;DR: if this new system gets implemetned, I'm not going to be able to scan without giving myself a migraine. I'd really prefer to avoid that.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

Raphendyr Nardieu
Avanto
#204 - 2015-11-06 14:12:45 UTC
Sorry for skipping 11 pages without reading (only this time, I nearly promise)...

Any case. Only reason I open one line from probes is to see expiration time and probe radius, so could we show summary on the probes header line?

Mockups: http://imgur.com/a/8vLXG
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#205 - 2015-11-06 16:26:05 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Well, in the instance of probes specifically, I'm not suggesting a workaround, rather educating on the use cases of the new feature, which might not be immediately obvious to everyone. The tooltip sensitivity suggestion I've been banding around is a bit of that too, but also a bit of a temporary workaround while we take a second pass at layering. If everything under the probe spheres (which are still part of the controls) was unselectable I feel not only would that be less intuitive, but also that it would annoy people in a different way.


Well, probes can be dragged out of the way, celestial objects can't. I think that giving probes priority is by far the lesser of two evils.

Quote:
We've got an item to make D-scan toggle more accessible on the "things to look at" list. When you say menu bar, do you mean the Solar System map? Specifically the map controls? Making them more accessible in fullscreen mode is also on the list.


Yes, sorry, I mean the new map control bar. And although I would be fine with it just being slimmer (there are a fair few pixels that can be shaved off, starting with the one pixel window border that's still present in full screen, then some black pixels... to actually get to bracket width might require reducing icon size though), I think I know what people who want its position to be configurable want. I think they want it a) possible to drag left and right to slide across the edge of the screen and b) flippable from top to bottom. So basically like the capacitor.
Johnny Cyclops
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#206 - 2015-11-06 17:59:11 UTC
any chance we could have drag and drop BM (for celestials, anomalies and 100% scanned sigs) from the map to people and places at some point? i keep catching myself trying to do it on my screen setup Big smile
Hiljah
Foo Holdings
AL3XAND3R.
#207 - 2015-11-06 18:43:19 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
Hi Goliath,
Thanks for the patience. Is there a way to turn the arrows on the cursor off? I'm sure other people might want just the arrows, but I only ever click on them accidentally.

Thank you,
Hiljah


Not that I know of, sorry! Sad


Thanks. Glad to hear you play and scan in a wormhole. Is there any chance the cursor could be changed? If not, another option would be to add axis locking hotkeys. For example, grab the cursor anywhere, hold x to move along x axis.

The use case for "destroy probes" is to quickly hide them from other people's d-scan, but I really don't think anyone uses this.


Destroying and recalling probes is supposed to have the same time, technically speaking. I think there might be a perception thing here :) Very interesting stuff!

The cursor appearance isn't something we're going to change in this release, but I've added it on the list of discussion points for when we visit colors and lines.


Added to the list for discussion? I'm so happy. I'm going to mock up some designs for you this weekend.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#208 - 2015-11-06 20:20:40 UTC
My only really big gripe is probes getting "stuck" under other icons and objects, making controlling them and positioning take several times longer to get going since the map wants to show you EVERYTHING UNDER YOUR MOUSE or that damn radial wheel wont stop popping up rather than allow you to move the probes. Maybe a toggle to keep other icons from reacting to the mouse's presence or mouse clicks so that only probes react to mouse commands would be awesome.

Also (and the rest of this is mostly pet peeves), the probe list seems to love to misbehave and changes the position of it's bottom border quite a bit when I'm not looking. Every time I've docked up and undocked, the bottom has inched it's way closer and closer to the top of the box. Can you guys talk to the probe list box and tell it that if it doesn't stop moving on its own and stay where I put it, I'm not getting it anymore ice cream? Curse my OCD, this really shouldn't bother me, but alas it does.

Finally, I have to agree with the sentiment that changing the colored bar for signatures from a solid background to a mere thin line underlining the sig/anom does make it rather difficult to make out which is which sometimes and seems counterproductive in being a visual aid. That, and moving the edges of the column headers seem to get stuck sometimes. Can't place my finger on what caused it, but I couldn't at one point last night move one of them until I unpinned the window and changed the window size. Very odd.

PS, I admittedly feel kind of bad that many others are having such a hard time with this. I don't scan all that much except on occasion to run a site or two, so many of the issues or bugs in this are for me reasonable or avoidable all together where as they seem like a nightmare for others. Hope things get better for you guys.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2015-11-06 21:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.



1. Refusal to backport any new features is a worrying trend, because of the history of failed revisions of systems in EVE. The old map and old scanning systems are still far better and more functional than anything the new features offer.

2. I have submitted bug reports but honestly the lag is extremely widespread and easy to catch. Look, someone even posted a youtube video of it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKsNTCy4aY&feature=youtu.be You don't get anywhere near that amount of lag with the old map.



1. We have a set amount of time that we can spend on this. We'd rather spend it entirely on making the new feature, which will inevitably replace the old, as good as it can possibly be, than trying to develop and support two systems in tandem. Sorry, just the way it is.

2. Easy to catch is a mislead. If everyone had performance problems with the new system, this thread would be awash, and I wouldn't have time to post here because I'd be processing bug reports all day. I get that it's very obvious when it occurs, but please believe me when I say that I haven't experienced it myself, nor is it realistic for me to conduct performance tests on the staggering array of hardware that a widespread userbase will utilise. It's not seeing the issue that I especially need, it's the computer specs and client settings, which we obtain through bug reports submitted in the client. With a range of these, I can start looking for trends (e.g. everyone/most using a particular driver or chipset or OS or whatever) and then we can target our optimisation.

Sincerely hope you get enough time to fix all the problems, before you remove the existing solution ...What?

Regarding performance, I'm not sure how many professional scanners populate New Eden, and how many of them bother with beta testing (others may just opt-out), so the scan interface problems do not affect the majority of players I presume, unlike the new icons for example.

I give you an easy task to test, take your favorite combat scan ship, jump in a mission runner system like Vylade on TQ, and then scan down all the MTUs and depots in said system. Compare efficiency to the existing interface ...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#210 - 2015-11-06 23:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tikktokk Tokkzikk
I love the new changes in general, but there's a few issues that needs looking at before it can be fully released:

HUD overlap the map controls with the map in fullscreen and HUD aligned up.
The probe icons (and celestials in general) block big parts of the probe controls.
The resizing bubbles has less margin for error, making it very easy to miss.
There doesn't seem to be a way to filter out Cosmic Anomalies from the results.
The Use Active Overview checkbox seem to be removed from the direction scanner.
The D-scan cone on the map is not accurate depending on zoom.

It'd also be nice to be able to filter anomalies (only show FW complexes, besiged sites, combat anomalies, etc).

Keep up the great work!
Casey Ambraelle
Almost Dangerous
Stranger Danger.
#211 - 2015-11-07 01:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Casey Ambraelle
Spent some more time with the new interface and noticed a few more things:

The probe cube doesn't scale with zooming in or out. On the old map as you zoomed in or out it would get smaller or bigger it no longer does this.

At one point my "you are here" marker was stuck to the sun and didn't move with me as I warped around wasn't able to reproduce it.

If you have the D-Scan set to "align with camera" you can't use the RMB to move your point of view around the map it always snaps back to your location

The old map has settings to show pins and/or show tool tips for stuff so you could have it set to show gate markers but not gate tool tips. There are no options for this anymore with the current markers its show markers and tool tips or nothing at all.
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#212 - 2015-11-07 04:05:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Malice Redeemer
The new scan window seems to be causing my overview to lock up today, will keep trying see if I can narrow it down.

Edit: not sure what is causing it, hadn't had it happen without the scan window up till just a bit ago though. Im now playing with the new scanning options disabled and haven't had it lock up yet, still testing. =/

Would love to also hear what you think about my previous feedback,

1) Option to remap new default filter hotkeys

2) Checkboxes for new default filters, Anoms and structures would be the most use, I believe.

3) the hotkeys should NOT function when I'm typing into a chatbox or textbox, no matter where my mouse is, like every other hotkey works now.


3) Removing the word Cosmic from sigs and anoms.
4) Option to disabling the star background.
Aurumfault Shiptoaster
Blood Oath Foundation
#213 - 2015-11-07 07:25:33 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.



1. Sweet.
2. No, they persist until the solar system map is closed. Only affects bookmarks created while that instance of the map is open, pre-existing bookmarks go away as expected.
3. As Stan Khashour's screenshots show.
4. Not so much the lines, but the icons and buttons - analyze was blue, destroy had blue and red, etc. Now everything is grey, just like the Neocom icons :/
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#214 - 2015-11-07 09:21:10 UTC
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:

4. Not so much the lines, but the icons and buttons - analyze was blue, destroy had blue and red, etc. Now everything is grey, just like the Neocom icons :/


Right? They will tell you they have have science saying that it's better that way, No matter how many times there customers tell them otherwise.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#215 - 2015-11-07 10:27:02 UTC
Just want to say. CCP Goliath (and the rest of the eve devs working on this feature)

Your willingness to listen to feedback on the new DSCAN and Probe Windows and make adjustments/fixes as needed has been outstanding.

Much appreciated.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#216 - 2015-11-07 11:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.



1. Refusal to backport any new features is a worrying trend, because of the history of failed revisions of systems in EVE. The old map and old scanning systems are still far better and more functional than anything the new features offer.

2. I have submitted bug reports but honestly the lag is extremely widespread and easy to catch. Look, someone even posted a youtube video of it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKsNTCy4aY&feature=youtu.be You don't get anywhere near that amount of lag with the old map.



1. We have a set amount of time that we can spend on this. We'd rather spend it entirely on making the new feature, which will inevitably replace the old, as good as it can possibly be, than trying to develop and support two systems in tandem. Sorry, just the way it is.

2. Easy to catch is a mislead. If everyone had performance problems with the new system, this thread would be awash, and I wouldn't have time to post here because I'd be processing bug reports all day. I get that it's very obvious when it occurs, but please believe me when I say that I haven't experienced it myself, nor is it realistic for me to conduct performance tests on the staggering array of hardware that a widespread userbase will utilise. It's not seeing the issue that I especially need, it's the computer specs and client settings, which we obtain through bug reports submitted in the client. With a range of these, I can start looking for trends (e.g. everyone/most using a particular driver or chipset or OS or whatever) and then we can target our optimisation.

Sincerely hope you get enough time to fix all the problems, before you remove the existing solution ...What?

Regarding performance, I'm not sure how many professional scanners populate New Eden, and how many of them bother with beta testing (others may just opt-out), so the scan interface problems do not affect the majority of players I presume, unlike the new icons for example.

I give you an easy task to test, take your favorite combat scan ship, jump in a mission runner system like Vylade on TQ, and then scan down all the MTUs and depots in said system. Compare efficiency to the existing interface ...

I can assure you plenty of "professional" scanners as you refer to us have tested on SISI and passed the reports on. I will say there has been a fantastic level of engagement from CCP here, and I have a real belief that this will lead to this change ending up as a real improvement.

Still a few points to address, ie thin line in scan window, much less clear than highlighted sig. It is much more problematic to drag the probe square, getting the right focus, is often trial and error, doable but kludgy. and scans that would previously result in a split result, either give a dotted ring now, or if the split result, neither dot is actually the sig any more, just somewhere in the region, requiring another scannpass at the least. On the old system a split could be resolved quite simply, as the furthest dot was generally the correct one, and even if not, when choosing the correct one, it was in exactly the right position for resolution to 100%. I did not see this difference so strongly on sisi testing, so that may be due to brain in the box not applying skills properly? So many issues overall at the moment in wormholes that have been bug reported, it is hard to know.

A short way to go, and then the new tool will be worth using, but back to the old scanner for now.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2015-11-07 13:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Leeluvv
Scanning issues I have come across:

1. The SCAN button is on the wrong side and so is the km/AU button. You move left to right as you type, so make the interface use this logic. Select AU/Km, choose range hit DScan. (same flawed logic for Probe scan too, but not as obvious as you don't enter distances with the keyboard)

At the moment it is:
Right hand side: Choose AU/KM
Move to left: Enter distance, finish at right
Move back to left: Hit DScan (I know there are hotkeys, but I am already using the mouse on the DScan window)
This is very unintuitive (and implies you don't have any UX guys on the team. Get some)


/Edit 2 Duh, it is already there. Ignore text below!

2. The DScan filter mechanics are way too slow.
I have 25 tab settings, most of which are situaltional, but I use 2 of the Overview tabs for specific wormhole scanning activities:
a. Ships, probes, wrecks and POS
b. POS, Forcefield and Moons

I will swap between the 2 constantly whilst narrowing down the location of a POS with a forcefield. Previously all I had to do was click on the relevant overview tab. Now I have to choose an option from a drop down list of 25 items! <= Can we have folders for overview settings? Then I can select the ones I want on DScan and the ones I want on Overview.

/edit Or add a 'Use overview settings' Option
Staten Island
Diversity 101
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#218 - 2015-11-07 13:57:19 UTC
I think it is important to remember where we started with scanning. Once upon a time scanning was a skilled profession in eve. You could make decent bank with exploration and a scanner was always welcome in a fleet. Then ccp made scanning stupidly easy. Exploration became a newbee profession instead of a skilled profession. Everybody and their mother could now scan easily. As a result the exploration market crashed. Data sites are not worth doing and relic sites are only worth doing if you really really like exploration or having nothing better to do isk wise. More problematic, scanning became so easy that an fc could do it on the fly while he was doing everything else in managing his fleet. Thus sniper fleets and other doctrines were severely hurt.

Now although the implementation of the new scanning is currently terrible for a whole variety of reasons, the problems are more fundamental and come from the failure of ccp to think through the proposed changes to the end assuming they are successfully implemented. The very idea of making scanning even easier and more convenient is just wrong headed. All it can lead to is ccp ultimately feeling compelled to refix scanning by implementing gimpy changes such as the proposed nerf to fleet warp or the changes to combat scanning which involve getting an intermediate result first.
Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#219 - 2015-11-07 16:18:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vegare
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.


I've had double dots and circles in the new system, but perhaps not always when I should have, now that I consider it. Is this a widespread issue? Would love to get some more feedback on this.


I'm afraid I had some weird results when probing yesterday, too. For example: Once I received a circle as a result which should have been a single point result. The circle was far too small to be the intersection of two of the spheres, and it was covered by four or more of them.

Edit: after some more reading: seems to be exactly the thing others are reporting as well


On a different note: I noticed that the tooltips that used to come up when pointing over a scan result in the probe scanner window seem to be missing. They are rather important, as the columns are usually to narrow to display the whole name of a signature.

Thanks again for taking all of our feedback so seriously.
Calima Arzi
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#220 - 2015-11-07 21:08:42 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
You can achieve this by going into the Markers menu in the Solar System map and deselecting "Scanner Probe". You can still manipulate the probes in the usual way, just that the individual probes won't be selectable as you describe.


My thanks to CCP Goliath and Sasha Sen for pointing this out. With that fixed, I'm back to about 75% as effective at scanning as I used to be. My main remaining problems are the same as have been called out several times:

- It's too hard to click the edge of the blue bubble to resize it.
- It's still too hard to click and move the cube, too easy to click on something else nearby.
- The thin coloured lines aren't as clear as the thick lines were. It's ambiguous if they mean the signal above or below them, especially when there are lots of hits.
- The new interface still feels more cluttered and confusing than the old one.

All that said, it's getting better. I too appreciate the dev team's engagement.

Regards,

-- C