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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#181 - 2015-11-06 08:58:57 UTC
Lara Sunji wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Lara Sunji wrote:
Will the color ever look the same like the rest of my ui? It's really distracting looking at a black box.
http://s20.postimg.org/imde3l81p/hmm.jpg Pin enabled as well.


This is a defect. Should have been fixed yesterday but there was an issue with the port. Coming in a patch near you soon (not today)


\o/ Thanks! OK so all is good, I thought the fix was applied already but I honestly couldn't tell the difference. Good to know.


The patch note went out, but we accidentally the changelist Oops

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#182 - 2015-11-06 09:00:36 UTC
Hiljah wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
Hi Goliath,
Thanks for the patience. Is there a way to turn the arrows on the cursor off? I'm sure other people might want just the arrows, but I only ever click on them accidentally.

Thank you,
Hiljah


Not that I know of, sorry! Sad


Thanks. Glad to hear you play and scan in a wormhole. Is there any chance the cursor could be changed? If not, another option would be to add axis locking hotkeys. For example, grab the cursor anywhere, hold x to move along x axis.

The use case for "destroy probes" is to quickly hide them from other people's d-scan, but I really don't think anyone uses this.


Destroying and recalling probes is supposed to have the same time, technically speaking. I think there might be a perception thing here :) Very interesting stuff!

The cursor appearance isn't something we're going to change in this release, but I've added it on the list of discussion points for when we visit colors and lines.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#183 - 2015-11-06 09:02:20 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:

It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?

I find the latter point interesting too - a few people have asked for the map controls to be "popout" when the map goes into fullscreen - what do people think about that?

Will do once I'm back at my gaming PC (week after next). map controls popout, hmm interesting, would need to try it and probably stack it with something else. Also the current way in the old map is quite OK.


Yeah something like the World Map Control Panel, but smaller and only dealing with Solar System commands, was kinda vaguely what I had in mind when I wrote "popout"

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#184 - 2015-11-06 09:04:33 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
I actually don't know what the use case of that button is. Answers on a postcard!


+------------------+
|  Getting probes  |
| off d-scan while |
| your hull is too |
|  full to recall  |
+------------------+


A shiny penny to you, my man! First use case for destroying probes that hasn't been tongue in cheek, or repeatable in another fashion. Also, plaudits for "postcard" construction Big smile

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#185 - 2015-11-06 09:08:28 UTC
Masao Kurata wrote:
Reposting some feedback I feel strongly about since the thread to post feedback in keeps changing:

CCP Goliath wrote:
iwannadig wrote:
When using 8 probe tight formation one probe is always at center of positioning cube making extremely hard to move it, because cursor always selects probe instead of the cube side. Probe selection must be optional with default set to OFF.


I recommend removing Probes from your Markers list in the top left of the window. You can still manipulate the probes as you could before.


Have you considered that if people are widely complaining about something and you yourself had to workaround it by changing your settings in a way that reduces functionality, it is in fact a genuine issue that needs to be addressed, not a problem with the user's settings? This would be completely resolved by giving probe controls absolute priority for hovering and clicking. Ignore all markers under the probe controls (still display them, but no tooltips or ability to select them),

On another note, I feel like the dscan camera lock could use a hotkey, and the menu bar is too thick. It's thicker than the gap that windows snap to near the edge of the screen to allow off camera brackets to show, so the title bars of other windows can get in the way of operating the menu in full screen mode.


Well, in the instance of probes specifically, I'm not suggesting a workaround, rather educating on the use cases of the new feature, which might not be immediately obvious to everyone. The tooltip sensitivity suggestion I've been banding around is a bit of that too, but also a bit of a temporary workaround while we take a second pass at layering. If everything under the probe spheres (which are still part of the controls) was unselectable I feel not only would that be less intuitive, but also that it would annoy people in a different way.

We've got an item to make D-scan toggle more accessible on the "things to look at" list. When you say menu bar, do you mean the Solar System map? Specifically the map controls? Making them more accessible in fullscreen mode is also on the list.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#186 - 2015-11-06 09:11:21 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

1) When the dscan is locked to the camera view you can't center your view on anything else but your ship. That's very painful. Generally I will find a target at a cluster of stuff, warp closer to get a better angle, and do another scan. With the old map I could double click on my warpin and start lining up my next scan while travelling. Now I have to wait until my ship has accelerated/warped/decelerated before I can even start lining up my next scan. Those seconds really matter when you're hunting a moving target.

2) A bug I think - when I use a hotkey (default F9) to bring up the solar system map (in fullscreen mode) the focus becomes locked on the map and won't let me click any other windows (to manipulate dscan sliders, interact with overview, etc.) Instead I just end up rotating the map view. This did not happen when using the map icon in the scan window, just with the hotkey (which I rebound and did not try using the default F9).


1. We've gotten a fair bit of feedback about this and it's been raised with the developer. I would think the likely approach will be to move the d-scan camera lock button outside of its menu to be more easily clickable on the fly.

2. That does sound like a bug! Not one I can replicate myself though, would you do me the service of supplying a bug report?


1. That doesn't sound like a great fix for my use case, because I am warping around the system specifically to dscan. I don't want to have to toggle my dscan on and off (via camera lock) between scans just so I can warp around. The old map used a camera lock style dscan and still allowed for centering on any object. (This did lead to some funky scans when you weren't centered on your own position, but I consider that user error). Toggling off the camera lock will probably slow me down even more than the current situation so I probably wouldn't use that fix much.

2. I submitted a bug report (filed under technical EBR-53989). After replicating it seems to only have occurred on the second use of the rebound hotkey (which was a mouse button if that makes any difference).

Thanks! Big smile


1. This is unfortunate, would a hotkey help at all? The old map used a very different paradigm in the camera as far as I know, and we can't mess around with the camera right now as it's already being messed around with for the future.

2. Thanks very much - will give it some repro attempts today.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#187 - 2015-11-06 09:17:13 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.



1. Refusal to backport any new features is a worrying trend, because of the history of failed revisions of systems in EVE. The old map and old scanning systems are still far better and more functional than anything the new features offer.

2. I have submitted bug reports but honestly the lag is extremely widespread and easy to catch. Look, someone even posted a youtube video of it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKsNTCy4aY&feature=youtu.be You don't get anywhere near that amount of lag with the old map.



1. We have a set amount of time that we can spend on this. We'd rather spend it entirely on making the new feature, which will inevitably replace the old, as good as it can possibly be, than trying to develop and support two systems in tandem. Sorry, just the way it is.

2. Easy to catch is a mislead. If everyone had performance problems with the new system, this thread would be awash, and I wouldn't have time to post here because I'd be processing bug reports all day. I get that it's very obvious when it occurs, but please believe me when I say that I haven't experienced it myself, nor is it realistic for me to conduct performance tests on the staggering array of hardware that a widespread userbase will utilise. It's not seeing the issue that I especially need, it's the computer specs and client settings, which we obtain through bug reports submitted in the client. With a range of these, I can start looking for trends (e.g. everyone/most using a particular driver or chipset or OS or whatever) and then we can target our optimisation.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#188 - 2015-11-06 09:18:04 UTC
Kaivaja wrote:
I used to have several custom filters in the old map. When I tried the new map, I thought that the old filters are preventing the new default filters from showing up and from working. Today I tested deleting all the old custom filters, but that didn't help. See this screenshot: http://imgur.com/X7Mf0jX

This problem makes probing with combat probes a nightmare in a system that has any POS'.


Yup this is an unfortunate issue that we will be fixing. Sorry about that.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#189 - 2015-11-06 09:19:13 UTC
Calima Arzi wrote:
I am finding the new interface extremely hard to use. Each of my probes in space has a large area around it which if I click it will warp the camera there: "Probe 11", "Probe 13" etc.

The problem is that from most angles, these circles overlap with the cube that I am trying to click on to move it around in space. I just keep clicking the probe circles. I don't want to be able to select the probes, at all. They're useless, and they keep getting in my way to the point where I am hating scanning.

Also, I can no longer scan on the old map, at all. The blue sphere does not appear, the cube does not appear. Scanning on the old map is impossible.

Please give me a way to make the probes non-selectable, and I'll be good. Until then I will loathe scanning. It has gone from a quick, simple, painless task to a ghastly, horrible, fiddly chore; a fight against a UI that I do not want to use.

Please take my feedback into account, and give us back a pain-free scanning interface. Thank you.

-- C


You can achieve this by going into the Markers menu in the Solar System map and deselecting "Scanner Probe". You can still manipulate the probes in the usual way, just that the individual probes won't be selectable as you describe.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#190 - 2015-11-06 09:20:02 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
5pitf1re wrote:
This has probably been reported before but the new windows don't seem to remember the last focused window choice.

That means, when I have both the DScan and scanning windows stacked into the same window and I activate or switch to the DScan window it will automatically switch to the scanning window when I jump through a gate.

This behavior is rather annoying since I have to get back to the DScan window every time.


This has actually been an issue for a really long time, but many seem to be noticing it more with these changes. I've been pressuring to get some developer traction on a fix.


I've not come across the 'bug' before, but it seems to be the default behaviour now. And I am not noticing it more, it didn't happen at all before. As a WHer, the last thing I do before I jump out of a wormhole and the first thing I do when I jump in to a wormhole is hit DScan. I have had DScan and Probing stacked for years and do not recall ever having to change back to DScan after jumping in.


Same here. I was actually astounded to find that it was a legacy issue as I also do exactly what you describe above, and have never had it occur either.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#191 - 2015-11-06 09:21:09 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.


I've had double dots and circles in the new system, but perhaps not always when I should have, now that I consider it. Is this a widespread issue? Would love to get some more feedback on this.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#192 - 2015-11-06 09:21:52 UTC
Petrified wrote:
The new probing window is a step in the right direction, but it still needs a lot of work.

The biggest issue with the new probing UI is that it is slow and sluggish. For lazy days probing, that would be ok, but overall, it is too slow to use efficiently.


If you're having performance issues please submit a bug report from within the client via the F12 menu, so we can get your computer specs and your client settings and all that good stuff.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#193 - 2015-11-06 09:26:35 UTC
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Aivlis Eldelbar
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#194 - 2015-11-06 10:51:23 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.


1. Don't wanna be a ****, but we've been pointing this out for a long time :P

3. Pretty sure he means circle results after probing, ie: when the sig is only picked up by two probes
4. I'm gonna be the odd one again and say that I really liked the UI before you fixed the transparency issues... nice and dark. Might have to mess with my HUD color settings to see if I can replicate it.
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#195 - 2015-11-06 12:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Rain Kaessinde wrote:
Please, please, get rid of the giant paddle-style location markers. They're more visually obstructive than the old brackets, their cursor-grabbing tar pit effect covers a wider area, and they're strangely offset from the actual locations they mark. It's also disconcerting to see them pop in and out when rotating the map, due to their excessive snap-together radius.



This and this again... After the updates this is the thing that puts me off from the new map system.... when you have a lot of BM's in a system and rotate the map it's just crazy. Not to mention that the "paddles" look awful

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#196 - 2015-11-06 12:30:32 UTC
Calima Arzi wrote:
Also, I can no longer scan on the old map, at all. The blue sphere does not appear, the cube does not appear. Scanning on the old map is impossible.

Try this: when new scanning is active, close probe and d-scan windows, press ESC, disable both new map and new d-scan, re-open (now old) probe and d-scan windows, press F10 and probe away using the old system. In other words, don't mix old map and new d-scan/probe windows.
Stan Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2015-11-06 12:40:10 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.

3. probly circle from only 2 probes picking up a signature which is pretty far off especially compared to the old circle

Side by side of old circle vs new circle signature is the bookmark in both
Top View

Side View
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#198 - 2015-11-06 13:02:55 UTC
CCP Goliath,

While I intensely dislike the new scanning map (possibly largely because of some tooltips mumbo jumbo, or maybe just because I am an old dog who does not like learning new tricks), I have to say that I am intensely impressed with the amount of engagement with your userbase in this thread.

With that said, I'm currently attempting to play Eve on a 17-inch laptop screen. Screen real estate is at a premium. Adding a completely separate window for the scanning interface might be nice if I was playing on a 30-inch screen, but it adds no new functionality for me.

As an example of this, the new ability to better aim your d-scan tool seems great. But I literally have a 2x2 inch square of screen left available for me to move my ship to aim it. Between local, the d-scan screen, the overview, my HUD, my chat channel, etc. There just is not any space for me to use the new system effectively.

So, thank you for your efforts. I'll be that curmudgeon who will continue to use the old map and the old scanning system as long as I can.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#199 - 2015-11-06 13:15:12 UTC
Along with being harder to use because it is in a dropdown, I also can't tell just by looking if there are no anomalies in my system or I just happen to have forgot I had them filtered out.

Not going to consider an option to remove the background stars?

What about remapping the hotkeys for the default filters?
Arla Sarain
#200 - 2015-11-06 13:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.


I've had double dots and circles in the new system, but perhaps not always when I should have, now that I consider it. Is this a widespread issue? Would love to get some more feedback on this.

Yeah, I did have one double dot (triple probe hit) pop up today.
But most of the time I get a horizontal dotted ring that never used to happen.

I do get FPS lag if I have too many BMs in the system which wouldn't happen with the old map.