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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

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Author
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#241 - 2015-11-09 13:44:16 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
Along with being harder to use because it is in a dropdown, I also can't tell just by looking if there are no anomalies in my system or I just happen to have forgot I had them filtered out.

Not going to consider an option to remove the background stars?

What about remapping the hotkeys for the default filters?


1. I don't really get the "harder to use" part? Would you expand on that please?
2. Gut instinct says that the only way we remove that is if we establish that it's causing major performance issues
3. I'll certainly ask, but I feel like these hotkeys were kinda special-cased

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#242 - 2015-11-09 13:45:09 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.


I've had double dots and circles in the new system, but perhaps not always when I should have, now that I consider it. Is this a widespread issue? Would love to get some more feedback on this.

Yeah, I did have one double dot (triple probe hit) pop up today.
But most of the time I get a horizontal dotted ring that never used to happen.

I do get FPS lag if I have too many BMs in the system which wouldn't happen with the old map.


Out of interest, what is your "too many" number roughly?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#243 - 2015-11-09 13:47:02 UTC
Rain Kaessinde wrote:
Stan Khashour wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.

3. probly circle from only 2 probes picking up a signature which is pretty far off especially compared to the old circle

Side by side of old circle vs new circle signature is the bookmark in both
Top View

Side View

This is a great illustration of the problem. In the classic map, a ring/circle/two-probe result gives you information that you can use (if you're clever) to reposition your probes almost as effectively as for a point result. The new map appears to always draw a circle in the horizontal plane, with no relationship to the actual signature location or to the probes which produced the hit.

Unrelated, the new map in fullscreen mode used to draw its control bar over other windows, which was convenient as I normally have stuff docked across the top edge of the screen. Now the control bar draws under everything else, so I would have to leave that edge clear if I wanted to use the fullscreen map. An "always on top" toggle would help, but best would be the ability to drag it around to any position on any edge instead of having it stuck at center-top.


OK I get the ring results thing now. Yeah, I've also noted that this is behaving oddly, will do some investimagating.

The controls being inaccessible with a lot of UI setups in fullscreen mode is on my list of things to tackle.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#244 - 2015-11-09 13:48:48 UTC
Raphendyr Nardieu wrote:
Sorry for skipping 11 pages without reading (only this time, I nearly promise)...

Any case. Only reason I open one line from probes is to see expiration time and probe radius, so could we show summary on the probes header line?

Mockups: http://imgur.com/a/8vLXG


That's a pretty cool idea. Thanks for taking the effort to make mockups! I'll forward it to Colgate.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Marris Rogers
Reapers Of Sin
#245 - 2015-11-09 13:55:07 UTC
I have noticed on the scan map, that when initially launching the probes you can not move them. If you hit your Ctrl Key once, it brings back the move functionally.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#246 - 2015-11-09 14:02:16 UTC
Johnny Cyclops wrote:
any chance we could have drag and drop BM (for celestials, anomalies and 100% scanned sigs) from the map to people and places at some point? i keep catching myself trying to do it on my screen setup Big smile


Cool idea but very out of scope for our team at this time unfortunately. I'll log it in our wiki page though!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#247 - 2015-11-09 14:05:38 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.



1. Refusal to backport any new features is a worrying trend, because of the history of failed revisions of systems in EVE. The old map and old scanning systems are still far better and more functional than anything the new features offer.

2. I have submitted bug reports but honestly the lag is extremely widespread and easy to catch. Look, someone even posted a youtube video of it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKsNTCy4aY&feature=youtu.be You don't get anywhere near that amount of lag with the old map.



1. We have a set amount of time that we can spend on this. We'd rather spend it entirely on making the new feature, which will inevitably replace the old, as good as it can possibly be, than trying to develop and support two systems in tandem. Sorry, just the way it is.

2. Easy to catch is a mislead. If everyone had performance problems with the new system, this thread would be awash, and I wouldn't have time to post here because I'd be processing bug reports all day. I get that it's very obvious when it occurs, but please believe me when I say that I haven't experienced it myself, nor is it realistic for me to conduct performance tests on the staggering array of hardware that a widespread userbase will utilise. It's not seeing the issue that I especially need, it's the computer specs and client settings, which we obtain through bug reports submitted in the client. With a range of these, I can start looking for trends (e.g. everyone/most using a particular driver or chipset or OS or whatever) and then we can target our optimisation.

Sincerely hope you get enough time to fix all the problems, before you remove the existing solution ...What?

Regarding performance, I'm not sure how many professional scanners populate New Eden, and how many of them bother with beta testing (others may just opt-out), so the scan interface problems do not affect the majority of players I presume, unlike the new icons for example.

I give you an easy task to test, take your favorite combat scan ship, jump in a mission runner system like Vylade on TQ, and then scan down all the MTUs and depots in said system. Compare efficiency to the existing interface ...


I´ve done testing like that in this interface. Issues with filtering at the moment are going to make that less efficient, but we are aware of that and will fix the bugs causing the problem.

Performance-wise, I'm just dealing with case-by-case reports trying to put together trends. Nothing obvious leaping out at me at this time.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#248 - 2015-11-09 14:08:39 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
I love the new changes in general, but there's a few issues that needs looking at before it can be fully released:

HUD overlap the map controls with the map in fullscreen and HUD aligned up.
The probe icons (and celestials in general) block big parts of the probe controls.
The resizing bubbles has less margin for error, making it very easy to miss.
There doesn't seem to be a way to filter out Cosmic Anomalies from the results.
The Use Active Overview checkbox seem to be removed from the direction scanner.
The D-scan cone on the map is not accurate depending on zoom.

It'd also be nice to be able to filter anomalies (only show FW complexes, besiged sites, combat anomalies, etc).

Keep up the great work!


1. Known issue, will fix
2. Known issue, will take another layering pass, but we encourage you to use the markers menu also!
3. By Design. We put picking back in because many said they wanted it, but we also had to cater to the large amount of users who complained that they were accidentally picking the probes. To mitigate issues, we added in Alt-Mousewheel to resize probes, and mappable probe resize shortcuts.
4. Press 1 when the probe scanner window is active, or deselect Anomalies from the Filter list
5. Known issue, will fix.
6. Unlikely to get fixed to the most minute level of detail, but we're keeping an eye on it.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#249 - 2015-11-09 14:11:32 UTC
Casey Ambraelle wrote:
Spent some more time with the new interface and noticed a few more things:

The probe cube doesn't scale with zooming in or out. On the old map as you zoomed in or out it would get smaller or bigger it no longer does this.

At one point my "you are here" marker was stuck to the sun and didn't move with me as I warped around wasn't able to reproduce it.

If you have the D-Scan set to "align with camera" you can't use the RMB to move your point of view around the map it always snaps back to your location

The old map has settings to show pins and/or show tool tips for stuff so you could have it set to show gate markers but not gate tool tips. There are no options for this anymore with the current markers its show markers and tool tips or nothing at all.


1. It scales with window size instead, but we are actually going to make some changes to it, not sure what yet.
2. Yeah this has also happened to me once, with no repro. If we pin it down we'll fix it.
3. By Design. It's to do with a camera paradigm that we cannot rewrite at this time.
4. This is a good point. Will raise it with the team.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#250 - 2015-11-09 14:14:49 UTC
Malice Redeemer wrote:
The new scan window seems to be causing my overview to lock up today, will keep trying see if I can narrow it down.

Edit: not sure what is causing it, hadn't had it happen without the scan window up till just a bit ago though. Im now playing with the new scanning options disabled and haven't had it lock up yet, still testing. =/

Would love to also hear what you think about my previous feedback,

1) Option to remap new default filter hotkeys

2) Checkboxes for new default filters, Anoms and structures would be the most use, I believe.

3) the hotkeys should NOT function when I'm typing into a chatbox or textbox, no matter where my mouse is, like every other hotkey works now.


3) Removing the word Cosmic from sigs and anoms.
4) Option to disabling the star background.


Oh, sorry if I missed your post earlier - lots of posts! Big smile

1. Probably not possible due to them being special cases, but I'll ask.
2. No room in the UI for checkboxes for these filters, the hotkeys and dropdown will be the way forward here I believe.
3. Because they're specialcased, we needed to change some expected behaviour, mouseover is one of those changes.
3.2. Not really something we'd want to do in our team, that´s more a game design decision and we are a UI/UX team
4. Not off the table yet, but will probably only happen if the star background is found to be causing performance issues. Our of interest, where does the desire come from?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#251 - 2015-11-09 14:15:29 UTC
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Aurumfault Shiptoaster wrote:
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.


1. Layering will be getting another pass
2. You mean while you're actively jumping, right? Once you hit the system they go away again?
3. What do you mean by "ring results"? Sorry, not a term I'm immediately familiar with. Feel free to use an imgur link or something to illustrate further.
4. We're taking a second pass at colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly next one.



1. Sweet.
2. No, they persist until the solar system map is closed. Only affects bookmarks created while that instance of the map is open, pre-existing bookmarks go away as expected.
3. As Stan Khashour's screenshots show.
4. Not so much the lines, but the icons and buttons - analyze was blue, destroy had blue and red, etc. Now everything is grey, just like the Neocom icons :/


2. This is so weird - I can't reproduce this at all. Are others experiencing this behaviour?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#252 - 2015-11-09 14:21:14 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
Scanning issues I have come across:

1. The SCAN button is on the wrong side and so is the km/AU button. You move left to right as you type, so make the interface use this logic. Select AU/Km, choose range hit DScan. (same flawed logic for Probe scan too, but not as obvious as you don't enter distances with the keyboard)

At the moment it is:
Right hand side: Choose AU/KM
Move to left: Enter distance, finish at right
Move back to left: Hit DScan (I know there are hotkeys, but I am already using the mouse on the DScan window)
This is very unintuitive (and implies you don't have any UX guys on the team. Get some)


I'll show your points to the team, but to be honest I think that if it was as unintuitive as you describe, we would have seen more than a few posts about it. Totally not off the table though, and thanks for taking the time to build the user path. Do you often change between KM and AU mid-scan?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#253 - 2015-11-09 14:24:08 UTC
Staten Island wrote:
I think it is important to remember where we started with scanning. Once upon a time scanning was a skilled profession in eve. You could make decent bank with exploration and a scanner was always welcome in a fleet. Then ccp made scanning stupidly easy. Exploration became a newbee profession instead of a skilled profession. Everybody and their mother could now scan easily. As a result the exploration market crashed. Data sites are not worth doing and relic sites are only worth doing if you really really like exploration or having nothing better to do isk wise. More problematic, scanning became so easy that an fc could do it on the fly while he was doing everything else in managing his fleet. Thus sniper fleets and other doctrines were severely hurt.

Now although the implementation of the new scanning is currently terrible for a whole variety of reasons, the problems are more fundamental and come from the failure of ccp to think through the proposed changes to the end assuming they are successfully implemented. The very idea of making scanning even easier and more convenient is just wrong headed. All it can lead to is ccp ultimately feeling compelled to refix scanning by implementing gimpy changes such as the proposed nerf to fleet warp or the changes to combat scanning which involve getting an intermediate result first.


I don't really see how we've made scanning mechanically easier in this new system. I believe we have made it more pleasant (subjective, I know) but we haven't changed any of the fundamentals. If you feel like sharing your "whole variety of reasons" why the new scanning interface doesn't meet your standards, I would be happy to read them.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#254 - 2015-11-09 14:24:52 UTC
Vegare wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.


I've had double dots and circles in the new system, but perhaps not always when I should have, now that I consider it. Is this a widespread issue? Would love to get some more feedback on this.


I'm afraid I had some weird results when probing yesterday, too. For example: Once I received a circle as a result which should have been a single point result. The circle was far too small to be the intersection of two of the spheres, and it was covered by four or more of them.

Edit: after some more reading: seems to be exactly the thing others are reporting as well


On a different note: I noticed that the tooltips that used to come up when pointing over a scan result in the probe scanner window seem to be missing. They are rather important, as the columns are usually to narrow to display the whole name of a signature.

Thanks again for taking all of our feedback so seriously.


RE: Tooltips, that's a known bug and we'll fix it.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#255 - 2015-11-09 14:26:12 UTC
Leeluvv wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
You can achieve this by going into the Markers menu in the Solar System map and deselecting "Scanner Probe". You can still manipulate the probes in the usual way, just that the individual probes won't be selectable as you describe.


When you do this, the option to move the probes disappears then next time you login, so you have to re-enable probes and disable them or hit the alt key to get the Cube and Arrows back. It's a probe scanner window, the one thing that should 'always' be visible is the Cube and Arrows.


That's actually a separate bug and one we will be fixing.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#256 - 2015-11-09 14:27:37 UTC
Ghost Cultist wrote:
Tried that, no good.


I feel like you're trying to use the F10 map or the Beta map. Neither of these will work with the new scanning features. Use the Solar System map - F9 or button in Dscan/Probe window.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#257 - 2015-11-09 14:30:27 UTC
Hazzard wrote:
The main problem for me is it seems half the time I try to grab the box to move my probes I end up clicking on a probe and get a tooltip instead.

Is there a way to make the box always on the top of the Z order so that i can't accidentally click on a single probe? (not sure why I would ever want to currently.)

Would also love it if there was a button you had to press and hold to make the up/down arrows on the box appear. Would stop people from accidentally click the up button when dragging.


While we will be taking another pass at layering, we also encourage you to use the markers menu to customise what appears in your solar system map. In the above usecase, I suggest unchecking "Scanner Probe" (you can still work with the probes as normal).

We actually had exactly what you describe in the first implementation of the feature, but people really hated being forced to use keybindings, so we reverted. The keybinding still exist though (Ctrl, Alt, Shift) and you should use them if you're so inclined.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#258 - 2015-11-09 14:30:37 UTC
Ok... so after some more testing I have few things to say (some of which were said already, but I'll mention it anyway).

1) I do not like the SSM look for only one reason. The displaying of BMs and their stacking. Get rid of the "paddle" and do not let them stack (or drastically reduce the range at which they do so). If you are worried abut their visibility just darken the background. But I do not think that will be an issue. This is something that should be just transferred from the old map (basically I'd like to see the old map look with the proper sun in the middle)

2) "Align with Camera" and "Show Scan Cone" toggles need to be directly accessible not hidden under very lazily reacting menu.

3) I like the alt+mousewheel to change probe range, but can we have it without the alt? Zooming in map can already be done by pressing both left+right mouse buttons, so scratch the alt. (I can understand some people would be against that, so just make that an option)

4) Make the SSM window pinnable and to remember it's open/close state... I have enough real estate on my setup to have the map open all the time. I'd like to pin it (so it goes transparent when the window is not active) and not to open it every time I log in.

5) I also like the previously mentioned idea that will show the amount of launched probes and remaining time on the collapsed probe section title.

Overall I feel optimistic about the new map scanning interface which is for the first time since this whole new map introduction.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#259 - 2015-11-09 14:34:59 UTC
Epigene wrote:
Ok, so I didn't read the entire 12 pages. My 2 pet peeves are:

During probing:

a) My ship is always in the center. In very large systems, I can not adjust the probes since I can not zoom in on them and see where they are in relation to the identified sig. It may be a setting (like the "c" key) but I have not found it. Help please
b) The arrows overlap to much, grabbing them to pull them appears to effect randomly to resize, click on something below or move the single bubble out of formation. Very fiddly, very annoying
c) the color scheme needs an overhaul. The red D-scan bubble is nice but distracting, being the same color as the rest of the signatures. Can we make it white or something. The icons are too small and too faint, I need to squint to see where they are.
d) The entire "undocked" window is a neat idea, in my case it doesnt work very well. In order to see anything, I need the entire real estate of my reasonably large PC monitor.

Bottom line, I'd really like to like the new feature, I'd really like to use it but it is inferior in nearly every respect to the old system and I shall find a way to revert back.

Thank you!


a - You need to deselect "Align to Camera" for the Directional Scanner (3rd button on the left of the Solar System map). Then you'll be able to zoom in and center on whatever you like.
b - Could you show me a screenshot? I feel like you're using a key modifier or something to display all your probe controls rather than just manipulating the one central box.
c - Colors getting a second pass, likely in next release
d - Fullscreen the window and that should solve your real estate issue

Thanks for the feedback! To revert back, just hit up the ESC menu and go to General Settings.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#260 - 2015-11-09 14:47:27 UTC
Soltys wrote:
Ok, after playing a bit more over weekend with the new interface, revised list of mine - some stuff obviously overlapping with other people's remarks, and some sounding like a broken record =)


Attention2 probe result - circle: as others already mentioned it sometimes feels bugged; I did have both clearly correct results (with circle oriented properly) as well as rather suspicious circle perfectly horizontal to the EvE's plane.

Attentionfiltering on the new map is non-functional w.r.t. just signatures: for example, I cannot set a filter that would show wormholes only, as all probed signatures are always being shown no matter what.

Attentionorder of what gets priority over what: well "you can turn off this and that" sure is some sort of workaround, but turning off too many elements is an overkill - especially if DScan cone is to be of any real use. If it's possible - probe controls should have absolute priority, though that might be tough to implement properly and even then remain glitchy. So a simpler alternative - in fashion similar to checkboxes responsible for displaying stuff on the probe map - add identical list of checkboxes responsible for interacting. This way we can have some/all celestials/etc. visible - but otherwise immune to selection, unwinding, etc. This I think should please everyone and be much easier to imlpement.

Attentionbubble grabbing needs to be disableable: seriously, it gets in a way of any left-click action (rotating especially) so much; it felt excellent when it was disabled on the test server - now it's back again. So what was even the point of adding alt+cone method ? Please add a checkbox to disable it and another one to disable alt+cone dragging. This way everyone will be happy. Just a matter of 2 checkboxes after all. TBH, after I got used to alt/ctrl+mousewheel - both alternatives are just in the way =)

Attentionalt/ctrl/shift are system-wide: EvE whether in background or not, its new (old one doesn't) probe map will react dilligently to those keypresses flashing with cones, arrows and cubes (this is broken record part).

Attentionalt/ctrl/shift are EvE-wide: whether the new (or old solar beta) map has focus or not, it will react dilligently to those keypresses flashing with cones, arrows and cubes. It's hell distracting, as those modifiers are used a lot.

Attentionallow docking/'always on top' of the probe scanner with reference to the floating probe map window': this is primarily to save a bit of screen space - when the probe map is in floating mode, there is currently no way to keep probe scanner on top of it

Attentionall new maps when docked shift the ship/hud (implicitly ignoring Ship View Camera Settings); In single monitor setup it's perhaps desirable, but in dual (and higher) monitor setups it's terrible (read: unusable) - especially when the ship is set to be in the middle of left or right monitor. For example if I have the right monitor dedicated to lesser stuff (map, browser with tripwire, local, etc.) and the left to actual action - I do not want docked map to mess up where I put the ship/hud on the left monitor. The suggestion is to add checkbox in game settings under display such as "docked windows don't shrink in-space/hud area".

Attentionperhaps consider swapping clrl and alt functions: this way ctrl takes new functionality and alt retains its current many months old one; personally idc (actually, I already got used to current setup) but some people will complain about changing defaults (old alt vs. new alt)


1. Yeah reckon there's a bug here.
2. There's a bug here too. Basically the filters won't work until you've identified the Group of the signature (and then still sometimes not work...). Will fix!
3. Layering is getting another pass, but using the Markers menu is not a workaround, it's part of the feature. The system you describe wouldn't be as easy to implement as you might think.
4. Too many people got mad when we took it out. Sorry, but we at least made it need to be more precise to happen.
5. Not sure if there's much we can do about that tbh, but I'll ask.
6. The old system does this too, so while it might get fixed it won't be a priority.
7. Like it used to be when we first pushed out the feature to Sisi? Again, too many people got mad when we did it so we had to revert.
8. That's just the way docking works for now unfortunately. It might get rewritten in future but that sounds like a fundamental change and those usually take time.
9. Probably too late in the day to make that change now, but we'll be keeping an open mind on it.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath