These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
Mixu Paatelainen
Eve Refinery
#161 - 2015-11-05 17:34:22 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Mixu Paatelainen wrote:
I like the new dscan, but I dislike probe functionality on the beta map. My issue is if I want to use the new dscan, I don't appear to be able to probe with the old map, as there are no spheres around my probes, and ctrl/alt doesn't show up anything. Working as intended?


Working as intended. We aren't mixing and matching, sorry. Sweet name btw, 'mon the Terrors!


I'm a hibee, thats why I love him :)
Cara Forelli
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#162 - 2015-11-05 17:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
CCP Goliath wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:

1) When the dscan is locked to the camera view you can't center your view on anything else but your ship. That's very painful. Generally I will find a target at a cluster of stuff, warp closer to get a better angle, and do another scan. With the old map I could double click on my warpin and start lining up my next scan while travelling. Now I have to wait until my ship has accelerated/warped/decelerated before I can even start lining up my next scan. Those seconds really matter when you're hunting a moving target.

2) A bug I think - when I use a hotkey (default F9) to bring up the solar system map (in fullscreen mode) the focus becomes locked on the map and won't let me click any other windows (to manipulate dscan sliders, interact with overview, etc.) Instead I just end up rotating the map view. This did not happen when using the map icon in the scan window, just with the hotkey (which I rebound and did not try using the default F9).


1. We've gotten a fair bit of feedback about this and it's been raised with the developer. I would think the likely approach will be to move the d-scan camera lock button outside of its menu to be more easily clickable on the fly.

2. That does sound like a bug! Not one I can replicate myself though, would you do me the service of supplying a bug report?


1. That doesn't sound like a great fix for my use case, because I am warping around the system specifically to dscan. I don't want to have to toggle my dscan on and off (via camera lock) between scans just so I can warp around. The old map used a camera lock style dscan and still allowed for centering on any object. (This did lead to some funky scans when you weren't centered on your own position, but I consider that user error). Toggling off the camera lock will probably slow me down even more than the current situation so I probably wouldn't use that fix much.

2. I submitted a bug report (filed under technical EBR-53989). After replicating it seems to only have occurred on the second use of the rebound hotkey (which was a mouse button if that makes any difference).

Thanks! Big smile

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2015-11-05 18:22:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Styphon the Black wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
To make sure this is not overlooked ... the new dscan does not automatically update the results when changing angle and range without scanning again. The current dscan does this auto-update, which significantly speeds up finding targets. So is this a unnoticed regression/bug or a planned nerf?

... also the option to toggle dscan lock should IMO be in the dscan window and not be part of the map controls, you need that option very often, so a hotkey would be handy.

But in general I prefer mouse control for scanning/flying, and the fewer clicks and shorter mouse path the better ... that's also why I'm not a friend of having the dscan button moved to the left. For you it may look cosmetic but for me it is a regression, because there is no equally convenient setup. Also on the top of my screen there are the collapsed chat windows, so I can't reach the map controls easily without moving the windows away ... small things maybe, but they add up to make the interface less usable.


You do know you can hot key the DScan button right?

Yes, I know, but this requires two hands on the keyboard/mouse ... I have no spare button left on my mouse, but I'm considering an upgrade here.

EDIT: I'm not convinced about introducing a hotkey for dscan is a good idea balance-wise, as I pointed out earlier.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#164 - 2015-11-05 18:31:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
your probe scanning UI is more annoying than the old one.

I mean, you seem to be pretty learn resistant, you havent learned anything from the original interfaces flaws?!
You constantly click into some random crap in process of moving/scaling probes, overlays, probes, celestials - which is totally nerve killing; seems like you placing them in worst places on purpose! Still flat arrows for moving probes up and down.
WHY? Why did you even put any effort into this pile of garbage when you basically made things worse?

HIRE SOME HALFWAYS CAPABLE UI DESIGNERS!
I mean this totally serious, not joking.

The only good thing about the new prober UI is that you can do it in a window but thats it.
Sven Viko VIkolander
Allemannsrett
#165 - 2015-11-05 19:22:11 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
[quote=Sven Viko VIkolander]

Thanks for the detailed feedback

1. We will not be backporting any functionality to the old map, but the point about icons is a good one. I'll raise it with CCP Colgate tomorrow and see if we can do something here.

2. If you are having performance issues with the map, please do submit a bug report so we can get your computer specs and settings. That's the best way for us to plan optimisations. Don't worry though, this is not "final form"

3&4. These should be fixed in the update going out tomorrow, to the best of my knowledge. We didn't change the font, but made the background match the scheme you've chosen, so readability should be markedly improved.

5. Try adjusting your Tooltip Delay a tiny bit in the General Settings menu. This help me immensely in this regard. Also make sure you are using Markers to remove things you don't need to care about (e.g. Probes, Belts, etc.). It is something we're monitoring though.



1. Refusal to backport any new features is a worrying trend, because of the history of failed revisions of systems in EVE. The old map and old scanning systems are still far better and more functional than anything the new features offer.

2. I have submitted bug reports but honestly the lag is extremely widespread and easy to catch. Look, someone even posted a youtube video of it for you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjKsNTCy4aY&feature=youtu.be You don't get anywhere near that amount of lag with the old map.

Kaivaja
State War Academy
Caldari State
#166 - 2015-11-05 19:28:07 UTC
I used to have several custom filters in the old map. When I tried the new map, I thought that the old filters are preventing the new default filters from showing up and from working. Today I tested deleting all the old custom filters, but that didn't help. See this screenshot: http://imgur.com/X7Mf0jX

This problem makes probing with combat probes a nightmare in a system that has any POS'.
Calima Arzi
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#167 - 2015-11-05 21:50:06 UTC
I am finding the new interface extremely hard to use. Each of my probes in space has a large area around it which if I click it will warp the camera there: "Probe 11", "Probe 13" etc.

The problem is that from most angles, these circles overlap with the cube that I am trying to click on to move it around in space. I just keep clicking the probe circles. I don't want to be able to select the probes, at all. They're useless, and they keep getting in my way to the point where I am hating scanning.

Also, I can no longer scan on the old map, at all. The blue sphere does not appear, the cube does not appear. Scanning on the old map is impossible.

Please give me a way to make the probes non-selectable, and I'll be good. Until then I will loathe scanning. It has gone from a quick, simple, painless task to a ghastly, horrible, fiddly chore; a fight against a UI that I do not want to use.

Please take my feedback into account, and give us back a pain-free scanning interface. Thank you.

-- C
Sasha Sen
Hull Zero Two
#168 - 2015-11-05 23:46:59 UTC
Calima Arzi wrote:
I am finding the new interface extremely hard to use. Each of my probes in space has a large area around it which if I click it will warp the camera there: "Probe 11", "Probe 13" etc.

The problem is that from most angles, these circles overlap with the cube that I am trying to click on to move it around in space. I just keep clicking the probe circles. I don't want to be able to select the probes, at all. They're useless, and they keep getting in my way to the point where I am hating scanning.

Also, I can no longer scan on the old map, at all. The blue sphere does not appear, the cube does not appear. Scanning on the old map is impossible.

Please give me a way to make the probes non-selectable, and I'll be good. Until then I will loathe scanning. It has gone from a quick, simple, painless task to a ghastly, horrible, fiddly chore; a fight against a UI that I do not want to use.

Please take my feedback into account, and give us back a pain-free scanning interface. Thank you.

-- C



Top Left in the Scan Window
First Marker Tab
uncheck -> Scanner Probes

problem solved
Leeluvv
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#169 - 2015-11-06 00:05:53 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
5pitf1re wrote:
This has probably been reported before but the new windows don't seem to remember the last focused window choice.

That means, when I have both the DScan and scanning windows stacked into the same window and I activate or switch to the DScan window it will automatically switch to the scanning window when I jump through a gate.

This behavior is rather annoying since I have to get back to the DScan window every time.


This has actually been an issue for a really long time, but many seem to be noticing it more with these changes. I've been pressuring to get some developer traction on a fix.


I've not come across the 'bug' before, but it seems to be the default behaviour now. And I am not noticing it more, it didn't happen at all before. As a WHer, the last thing I do before I jump out of a wormhole and the first thing I do when I jump in to a wormhole is hit DScan. I have had DScan and Probing stacked for years and do not recall ever having to change back to DScan after jumping in.
Arla Sarain
#170 - 2015-11-06 00:46:43 UTC
New scanning mechanics don't show how many probes hit (double dot, circle, etc).
This was really useful for those who could gather the right information from it.
SGNL
Doomheim
#171 - 2015-11-06 02:01:52 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
SGNL wrote:
Forgive me if this has already been asked. What is the point of the transparent red orb in the new scanner module, is it for point of view or something? Can it be disabled? It's very intrusive.


It's a visual representation of the Directional Scanner. It can be disabled currently by closing the Directional Scanner, but we are adding a toggle to have D-scan open and not display the visual representation.


You da man. Thanks.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
G0N3 F1SS10N
#172 - 2015-11-06 04:14:27 UTC
The new probing window is a step in the right direction, but it still needs a lot of work.

The biggest issue with the new probing UI is that it is slow and sluggish. For lazy days probing, that would be ok, but overall, it is too slow to use efficiently.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Copper Rei
Copper Corp
Aggressively Passive Bears
#173 - 2015-11-06 07:11:54 UTC
I have been trying for a couple days to list all the specifics that are good and bad about the new map and the new scanning system and quite frankly, I have nothing good to say so I will not say anything, and in doing so, I hope you can read between the lines.
Aurumfault Shiptoaster
Blood Oath Foundation
#174 - 2015-11-06 07:23:35 UTC
- Formation cube is too hard to select and drag. It feels like everything else has priority.

- Bookmarks do not get removed when changing system.

- Ring results relation to the actual location seems tenuous at best.

- Why the recent obsession with removing colour from the UI? First the Neocom, now this. Put it back please.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#175 - 2015-11-06 08:50:20 UTC
Moloney wrote:
Please think of DOS for simple applications.

Scanning is a simple application, please leave it as such since all we want out of it is speed. The current version works very well for this.

About the only addition that you could make to improve the current scanning is adding the short cut for Scan.


While I appreciate that you are correct that scanning and speed are importantly intertwined, leaving it as it is is not on the menu, sorry. Please engage with our new feature set (which has a scan shortcut!) and help us make it the interface you want to use in the future.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#176 - 2015-11-06 08:52:42 UTC
Pandora Bokks wrote:
Getting used to the new system will take a while but in general, I think it will be better over time.

I have a question though:

Have you touched scanning mechanics (the math behind it) somehow? I have the strong feeling that it is harder to get results after patch (max skills / full mid-grade virtue clone / rss probes). Funny thing is that it seems especially to be true for the easy sigs that I was able to get an instant hit with 4 AU diameter before.

To add - I would be extremely happy if you made/make probing harder, so this is by no way a complaint.


We haven't touched it at all, but with Brain in a Box it is totally possible that there is something going on with scanning skills, implants, ship hull bonuses, modules and/or charges. My advice is to submit a bug report detailing your observations and the implants, hull, modules, probes, etc. and I'll add it to my aggregating defect.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#177 - 2015-11-06 08:54:07 UTC
Vegare wrote:
Thanks for listening to all of our feedback! If not for a few remaining issues I'd say the new solar system map is now ahead of the old one regarding features and functionality. Merging probing and d-scanning in a far more obvious way was definitely the way to go.

However I’d like to put some emphasis on an issue that has been raised before. Namely the way that the new map handles the celestials that are selected by clicking on them outside of the map window (which puts them in the ‘selected item window’). That is: it does nothing. The old functionality strikes me as rather fundamental to orientation on the map. A simple click on an objects bracket showed you the location of the object you were looking for. Double clicking an entry, for example in the overview, would even center the map on it. One possible use case comes up while trying to identify a feasible celestial to ping to before warping to an out gate. Open map, double click gate on overview, map centers on gate, check for pings, d-scan, warp and jump and hope there’s no camp on the other side.

The other thing that seems to be critical is to be able to see your ships HUD when having the map on full screen. However, I take you’re already on that one. While on it just please remember that some people have the HUD at the top of the screen. It might interfere with the map controls.

Thanks again for your great work.


Very interesting point. I've added it to the list! Thanks :)

HUD fix is out now, hope you've got it. Map controls being more flexible in their positioning is something on the list of things to look at.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#178 - 2015-11-06 08:55:42 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:


In regards to tidying up the icons on the solar system map I will try to be more subjective:

I would suggest they need to look more unified, so for instance some of the icons are very large compared to others and very prominent, and there are many different colours and shapes, which I believe makes it look a little messy. I think signature and probe results need to be clearer and unified in appearance as in the original system, and also the celestial icons need to be a little more defined and smaller so that more can be seen on screen. At the moment I didn't find them useful for identifying the difference between planets and asteroid belts for example.


Yup, sig appearance is definitely on the list. Icon style isn't something that's in scope for us to change too dramatically though, sorry.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#179 - 2015-11-06 08:57:40 UTC
Rainbow Prism Colorblind wrote:
Just a small note here with the new scanning map, i know it have some know issues so I'm just going to skip asking about all that and go for the main problem i been having, or wish to have changed? it just a small detail but it bugs me at the moment.

Namely the D scan Bubble in the new mapper, why does it have to be red, Blue or green would be better to offset it from all the signatures or it get kinda bloated up when you try to aim the d scan toward a signature that some pray may be hiding at.

Also I would like some input from others if they would think a colour change? or custom colour setting? is a good/bad idea?

Just want a small answer so my brain would stop chew in the little things...

Fly less safe and fly fast! o7


We've received a good amount of feedback on this and are committed to revisiting colors and lines, but not in this release. Almost certainly will be the next release.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#180 - 2015-11-06 08:58:24 UTC
Quiggle Queue wrote:
Could you please add some background color to each probe scanner entry, as the old one had. It would make it alot easier to visually see the differences between the lines of text.


In the post above I've noted our intended approach to this. Hope it helps Smile

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath