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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Discussion thread about WiS

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Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#81 - 2012-04-24 13:33:51 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...

Could you look into the video for the WiS roundtable, for those of us who were not at fanfest? It would be greatly appreciated.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#82 - 2012-04-24 13:38:34 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Gothikia wrote:
Instead of you guys dreaming up stuff with abandoned structures, why not just put all your focus into finishing Incarna off with establishments, corp and alliance board rooms, other meeting places and so on within stations before you go off dreaming about other things? I think its fair to say that you guys do one thing, burn out, then put your heads somewhere else without finishing the original job off that you started. I mean CCP in general, not your team. But since we do have WiS now, it would be nice to see it completed, rather than fall by the wayside like so many other features that have come along - especially when there was so much investment into Incarna. Get your money's worth.


I don't think this is a case of developing a feature and then dropping it to concentrate elsewhere more a realisation that the way we were developing WiS was wrong for what it was we actually had on our plates. Treating it as just another EVE expansion doesn't work when there is so much technology to develop and that was happening at the same time as we were trying to use it to create the gameplay, such that it was. Taking a step back lets us nail the technology we need, get an idea of timeframes for development as well as giving us confidence in providing you guys with a kick ass experience. Stuff like the social and meeting areas falls out of that development almost for free. Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.


The downside with this approach is that it's all or nothing: nothing now, then "all" in... 1 year? 2? 3 years maybe?

And so far WiS is beyond broken, it's non-existant. It's a resource heavy clumsy interface to nowhere to go, nothing to do and never happen anything, with a promise to keep it like that for years.

It's not ideas what are missing, it's the will to iterate what can be iterated independently of whatever you want to do with WiS. What's gonna come after Inferno? What will happen with WiS once the last remnants of Incarna content are released?
Cailais
The Red Pill Taker Group
#83 - 2012-04-24 14:07:25 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:

Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.


Which, ironically, is pretty much what the community recommended as we became increasingly concious that WiS was being manufactured in a 'game play vacuum'. But that's by the by.

Any avatar game play in EVE is, to an extent, tainted by the events of last summer. That makes it all the more important that the development of future avatar features is well thought out, presented early to the player base (to solicit feedback) and then delivered in a complete a form as possible.

Even if the development statement is "here is what we scribbled on a white board, and we selected these elements because..." could reap benefits now - rather than wait until later and announce a feature pack that is received unfavourably.

C.
Whitehound
#84 - 2012-04-24 14:23:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I don't think this is a case of developing a feature and then dropping it to concentrate elsewhere more a realisation that the way we were developing WiS was wrong for what it was we actually had on our plates. Treating it as just another EVE expansion doesn't work when there is so much technology to develop and that was happening at the same time as we were trying to use it to create the gameplay, such that it was. Taking a step back lets us nail the technology we need, get an idea of timeframes for development as well as giving us confidence in providing you guys with a kick ass experience. Stuff like the social and meeting areas falls out of that development almost for free. Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.

Is WiS going to be a part of DUST514 now?

I would love to see the NPC stations being handed over to DUST514 players. I would also love to have the option to choose between flying in space and walking around being two very distinct choices.

I like to play EVE and to pay for it and even when I hardly ever play FPS shooters would I have DUST514 on the PC, too, and being able to play and to pay for both games whenever I wish to. If then WiS became part of DUST514 and with all the other things players want to do with WiS then it would also not leave DUST514 to being a bare shooter. Is this a possibility?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
CCP Bayesian
#85 - 2012-04-24 14:47:26 UTC
Shandir wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...

Could you look into the video for the WiS roundtable, for those of us who were not at fanfest? It would be greatly appreciated.


Sorry, yes I asked around about this already and meant to reply earlier. The roundtable itself wasn't recorded but the notes from it that our team took down are still in the process of being written up.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#86 - 2012-04-24 14:50:16 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The downside with this approach is that it's all or nothing: nothing now, then "all" in... 1 year? 2? 3 years maybe?

And so far WiS is beyond broken, it's non-existant. It's a resource heavy clumsy interface to nowhere to go, nothing to do and never happen anything, with a promise to keep it like that for years.

It's not ideas what are missing, it's the will to iterate what can be iterated independently of whatever you want to do with WiS. What's gonna come after Inferno? What will happen with WiS once the last remnants of Incarna content are released?


We definitely have the will to iterate on things that currently exist it's just were focusing on prototyping until the start of June as I stated earlier.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#87 - 2012-04-24 14:53:02 UTC
Cailais wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.


Which, ironically, is pretty much what the community recommended as we became increasingly concious that WiS was being manufactured in a 'game play vacuum'. But that's by the by.

Any avatar game play in EVE is, to an extent, tainted by the events of last summer. That makes it all the more important that the development of future avatar features is well thought out, presented early to the player base (to solicit feedback) and then delivered in a complete a form as possible.

Even if the development statement is "here is what we scribbled on a white board, and we selected these elements because..." could reap benefits now - rather than wait until later and announce a feature pack that is received unfavourably.

C.


As I said earlier we'll be releasing a devblog on our prototyping work to date just as soon as we can get it written. I'll answer what I can here as well in between implementing things. :)

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
CCP Bayesian
#88 - 2012-04-24 14:57:33 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Is WiS going to be a part of DUST514 now?

I would love to see the NPC stations being handed over to DUST514 players. I would also love to have the option to choose between flying in space and walking around being two very distinct choices.

I like to play EVE and to pay for it and even when I hardly ever play FPS shooters would I have DUST514 on the PC, too, and being able to play and to pay for both games whenever I wish to. If then WiS became part of DUST514 and with all the other things players want to do with WiS then it would also not leave DUST514 to being a bare shooter. Is this a possibility?


I think we are committed to bringing WiS to capsuleers. I'm pretty certain we don't want to force players happy with the game now to have to use the WiS gameplay we develop. How DUST514 might expand I can't really answer as I'm not involved with that project directly.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-04-24 15:02:36 UTC
I've thought i'm the only one left who actually still wants a good WiS

It's was good when it's released, a good for a start, i was impressed. But now there is not enough manpower to continue this.

Because there is a lot to do just to finish it

Gloves, hats, more cool clothes. And more "alive" characters. It's obvious that it's unachievebale in current situation

I hope that CCP eventually will give more resources to Team Avatar

I've played this game for 5 years now, and waiting WiS for 4 years or so. And it's still gives me hope that this game will be something more than most other games where you need to fight one way or another. It's funny, but i thing it's too generic these days

From a past spring i've didn't play much, a few days actually, just because i've lost most of my hopes for WiS. No, i'm not saying goodbye, it's not a burden for me to pay for my accounts even if i don't actually play

Anyway, i'm not a big fan of forums, and english it's a little difficult for me, but feel free to EVEMail me with your threads about WiS. I'll always support...

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?
Shandir
EVE University
Ivy League
#90 - 2012-04-24 15:18:43 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Shandir wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...

Could you look into the video for the WiS roundtable, for those of us who were not at fanfest? It would be greatly appreciated.


Sorry, yes I asked around about this already and meant to reply earlier. The roundtable itself wasn't recorded but the notes from it that our team took down are still in the process of being written up.


Well, that is quite disappointing. Important information should not be disseminated through a channel so very few players have access to - especially since some of us even paid for the stream. I look forward to the summary when it comes out, but it will of course be only a partial copy of the information given during the roundtable (off-script comments, Q&A).
It's also not the only important part of fanfest that was not streamed or recorded.
CCP Bayesian
#91 - 2012-04-24 15:26:55 UTC
Shandir wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Shandir wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
...

Could you look into the video for the WiS roundtable, for those of us who were not at fanfest? It would be greatly appreciated.


Sorry, yes I asked around about this already and meant to reply earlier. The roundtable itself wasn't recorded but the notes from it that our team took down are still in the process of being written up.


Well, that is quite disappointing. Important information should not be disseminated through a channel so very few players have access to - especially since some of us even paid for the stream. I look forward to the summary when it comes out, but it will of course be only a partial copy of the information given during the roundtable (off-script comments, Q&A).
It's also not the only important part of fanfest that was not streamed or recorded.


It was a roundtable, so much more informal than the presentations. So there weren't any scripts and it was pretty much all Q&A in both directions. They are basically run to get the developers and players together to talk about specific topics so are by nature freeform discussion.

We aren't distributing important information through that as a channel and should we do so it'd be combined with other releases to the wider community. I understand the frustration of not being able to take part and hope the devblog we'll put out shortly should sate your thirst for information.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#92 - 2012-04-24 15:37:25 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
EVE will always, fundamentally, be about internet spaceships. That's been settled. Do you need it to always, exclusively be about internet spaceships?

Yes, of course.


Excellent, then. We're all good.

I'm looking forward to the dev blog.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Whitehound
#93 - 2012-04-24 15:40:56 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I think we are committed to bringing WiS to capsuleers. I'm pretty certain we don't want to force players happy with the game now to have to use the WiS gameplay we develop. How DUST514 might expand I can't really answer as I'm not involved with that project directly.

You say "having to use" ... does this mean the same as "having to pay"?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
CCP Bayesian
#94 - 2012-04-24 15:51:45 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I think we are committed to bringing WiS to capsuleers. I'm pretty certain we don't want to force players happy with the game now to have to use the WiS gameplay we develop. How DUST514 might expand I can't really answer as I'm not involved with that project directly.

You say "having to use" ... does this mean the same as "having to pay"?


No, as far as I'm aware there aren't currently plans to change our minds and charge extra for access to the WiS functionality.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter
Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2012-04-24 16:31:39 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Gothikia wrote:
Instead of you guys dreaming up stuff with abandoned structures, why not just put all your focus into finishing Incarna off with establishments, corp and alliance board rooms, other meeting places and so on within stations before you go off dreaming about other things? I think its fair to say that you guys do one thing, burn out, then put your heads somewhere else without finishing the original job off that you started. I mean CCP in general, not your team. But since we do have WiS now, it would be nice to see it completed, rather than fall by the wayside like so many other features that have come along - especially when there was so much investment into Incarna. Get your money's worth.


I don't think this is a case of developing a feature and then dropping it to concentrate elsewhere more a realisation that the way we were developing WiS was wrong for what it was we actually had on our plates. Treating it as just another EVE expansion doesn't work when there is so much technology to develop and that was happening at the same time as we were trying to use it to create the gameplay, such that it was. Taking a step back lets us nail the technology we need, get an idea of timeframes for development as well as giving us confidence in providing you guys with a kick ass experience. Stuff like the social and meeting areas falls out of that development almost for free. Ultimately developing better tools lets us make better gameplay faster and the first step in that is deciding what we want to make. I realise it's frustrating we're not continuing to develop on top of what already exists but trust me it's not because we don't want to provide you guys with all the things that were promised it just that we want to do it right so that not only do you get what was promised but we are in a position to rapidly build on that in interesting ways rather than hamstringing ourselves.


I appreciate the effort and based on the responses I've seen from the trolls that lurk under the forum bridges I definitely understand the sentiment.

The only thing that worries me about WiS is the idea of making it a more friendly environment... Eve is supposed to be unforgiving -- and while I can appreciate having community area WiS be friendly and calm I wouldn't want that same feeling to pervade through all of WiS.

Like I said in the "Carbon Avatar based gameplay as a separate game" thread

"Katerwaul" wrote:
For capsuleer explored "dungeons" I can imagine a feel similar to resident evil...

As your ship docks and you leave the gentle glow of your pod behind you, the structure you step onto is decrepit, lighting flickering as you're trying to fix the power grid and access the main computer. The vacuum of space has already swept through the interior leaving frozen corpses along the walls. Who knows what experiment went wrong to result in the deaths of an entire space station...but when you scanned the halls not a single life sign was picked up. You find the engineering bay and industrial facilities horribly mangled. Taking a look over you find a bit of charred metal that could have been the source of the destruction. Somewhere deeper in the complex is a computer that has the schematics that you'll need to begin engineering a module that will succeed where this experiment failed.


I think that WiS should be a place where we're making dangerous discoveries about the origins of technologies & enemies. Discovering information about hopes and dreams and atrocities that propel the backstory of EVE and force you to take a more human look at the missions you've been doing.

WiS "light" that comes from stations & npc interactions shouldn't be the focus -- but a byproduct. And the interactions there should reflect upon a capsuleer's decision to get out of his pod & interact with the normals in a way that reflects the kind of impression one of the "new age gods" would leave upon someone who he's working with more closely. The kinds of things that a friend might do. Overlooking declined missions because you cared enough to talk with them in person & finding the mission that suits you best, building on your relationship with that person and their opinion of you more quickly, offering missions or information about local WiS opportunities, etc... WiS would be a great opportunity to really reflect on what kind of actions you've been taking and how they've affected people around you.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
Jett0
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-04-24 17:17:04 UTC
Just peeking in to give support to Team Avatar. I think what you guys are doing is amazing, and cutting edge.

Occasionally plays sober
Whitehound
#97 - 2012-04-24 18:13:15 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
I think we are committed to bringing WiS to capsuleers. I'm pretty certain we don't want to force players happy with the game now to have to use the WiS gameplay we develop. How DUST514 might expand I can't really answer as I'm not involved with that project directly.

You say "having to use" ... does this mean the same as "having to pay"?


No, as far as I'm aware there aren't currently plans to change our minds and charge extra for access to the WiS functionality.

Thanks ...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#98 - 2012-04-24 20:03:59 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
We definitely have the will to iterate on things that currently exist it's just were focusing on prototyping until the start of June as I stated earlier.


+


CCP Bayesian wrote:
As I said earlier we'll be releasing a devblog on our prototyping work to date just as soon as we can get it written. I'll answer what I can here as well in between implementing things. :)


= is there any hope to get original (=new, not fanfest 2011) WiS content after Inferno?
Even if it's just customization options for the 'Prisoner with the Iron Mask'?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#99 - 2012-04-25 06:50:21 UTC
houm... i am wondering wether the new hairstyle was a leftover from Incarna... probably it is, so maybe there's still some "surprises" left to release (I mean, beyond the unused NEx assets).
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2012-04-25 15:42:23 UTC
A couple questions for team avatar (or anyone in the know)...

Do we have anything avatar related to look forward to in the next year?

Have you got any plans to improve CQ? Personally, i would like to see the big screen used better. The ability to watch eve related videos (CCP trailers/tutorials, clear skies, etc.) would be cool. Also if there was some kind of competitive gambling game added to CQ, i think it would be a success as proven by somer blink.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...