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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Discussion thread about WiS

First post First post
Author
CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#21 - 2012-04-22 13:59:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

CCP karkur
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2012-04-22 14:21:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP karkur
I'll tell my team about this thread, but how about keeping it constructive so we can all get something out of it?
There was so much arguing about who said what in the other thread that it was kind of hard to read through it to find the posts that had some real content P

CCP karkur | Programmer | Team Five 0 | @CCP_karkur

Buzzy Warstl
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-04-22 14:35:46 UTC
Since I missed in GD, I'll just put my 2 isk in here:
Stations are a great place to put content that simply can't be made to fit in space.

The industrial side of the game in particular could use some love, and stations are the place where research and production happen, so they are the ideal place to put real content to allow player interaction with those processes.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#24 - 2012-04-22 14:43:10 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.


It's not what you do, CCP Karkur, but what CCP doesn't does. The UI improvements are nice but they're not the issue. The issue is that CCP claims that avatar in EVE are back to the drawing board again and this repeating prank is no fun any longer. By delaying WiS until avatar gameplay prototyping is done (a matter of years) CCP is ignoring the people who where the more aggraviated with Incarna: the ones who actually expected Incarna to become real.

So far Ambulation/WiS/Incarna/however marketing guys call it tomorrow is worst than broken or non-existant. And whatever you're protoyping, it can be used to any of your other games. Prototyping avatar gameplay is the right thing for avatar based games, but it can be equally done while we EVE suckers are stuck with ships until hell freezes and pay for everyone else getting their fun. How do we know that you're prototyping for EVE and not WoD? (Be noted i am expecting WoD as well, I have nothing against WoD)

Blunt and short, we can't trust your company on EVE avatars unless its acts match its words. Gray boxes in a gray environment & running scripts at each other can become vampires or capsuleers with equal ease. They don't commit CCP to anything. And so far Team Avatar's deliveries for 2012 are leftovers of Incarna, much as Crucible delivered the other racial CQs.

And there are no plans for new deliveries. There is no commitment to develop "baby steps" to keep improving WiS, rather a vague claim to be protoyping how to climb the Everest with your hands tied to your back. Good. It's nice to have a loooong term goal. But as we say in my country, a bit of "take it" is worth a thousand "we will give you".

And what CCP is giving us is a fraction of what they said they would give to us back in 2011, with no plans to deliver the rest of stuff, let alone anything that wouldn't take 3 years to put our hands on...
Cailais
Tao Expeditionary
#25 - 2012-04-22 14:57:53 UTC
WiS needs to be finished - as in completed to a state where it has playable game play value - not least because a strong criticism of CCP is that they start features, but do not complete them.

As it stands WiS is a dead weight around the shoulders of EVE Online, and it will remain like a giant folly until developer time is focused upon it. There is potential within the idea of 'in station game play' but a fast and dirty approach won't realize that potential. Nor will having a small, under resourced team tinkering around the edges deliver anything of value to the community.

As it stands we're 5 - 6 years from seeing WiS realized as a genuine element of EVE Online and that's unlikely to be good for EVE in the long term.

C.
Shandir
Indigo Archive
#26 - 2012-04-22 16:39:49 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.

The work you're doing on UI stuff, which we know is often in your own free time - is amazing and we appreciate it. People who are interested in WiS features are somewhat lacking in feedback though - we know you're prototyping stuff, but we don't have any idea what; we know you plan on releasing more features, but we have no idea when.

What would really help is some exposition on how things are going:

* What gameplay features you're considering
* Some idea of what you guys intend to be the core ideas of WiS
* Answers to some basic questions like - should we expect WiS to be safe as stations are right now, or is leaving your CQ going to be a small-medium-large risk?
* Some guesses as to timeline, yes it's obvious you can't set firm dates, but you guys have a better idea than we do how long it's going to take to reach certain stages: multiplayer, establishments, PvP (if it exists), other features.

Even if these ideas aren't fully decided yet, involve us in the process - players have been throwing ideas to CCP for years and the feedback has been ... well, as far as I can remember, non-existant. It's a lot harder to be disappointed or frustrated when CCP talks to us about what things are being done and why.
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-04-22 17:07:42 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.



Keep up the work guys, there are a lot of us out here that look forward to the day we can open the door. I have full faith that CCP can bring WiS without sacrificing FiS.
Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-04-22 18:20:25 UTC
WiS would be the perfect environment for a gambling community to really be integrated into the eve UI.

I'd also love to see some kind of 1v1 or TvT arena setup where capsuleers can field virtual (or physical) ships against each other while others bet on the outcome. Charge something for the setup & have the opponents wager against each other. Give spectators the option to offer wagers against each other on the outcome.

Introduce outlawed types of gambling that can only be found/started in low-sec or null-sec, etc...

Personally, if WiS ends up being one more place someone can gank you I'll probably stay out of it (last I checked my meat-suit doesn't have much ehp), but if it ends up being something more, where you can set-up things like Duels (where concord will actually intervene if the other guy suddenly brings 5 buddies or 10 reppers) or real Lotteries/Gambling then I'd be interested.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-04-22 18:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: oldbutfeelingyoung
CCP karkur wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.



You don,t have to feel bad ,since your work at the UI is great

But Team Avatar keeping silent letting the WIS thread die off .
The same thread you people asked ideas in .
ideas lost behind the lock
You don,t have to feel bad ,but this whole so called team has to.

R.S.I2014

Boffles
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-04-22 18:59:35 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
I'll tell my team about this thread, but how about keeping it constructive so we can all get something out of it?
There was so much arguing about who said what in the other thread that it was kind of hard to read through it to find the posts that had some real content P


Just to say there is a silent group who speak softly and do want WiS. We listen to what is said and not what we make up.

Check out my latest Chronicle in EON #28 - The Soulless Pilgrim http://www.eonmagazine.co.uk/

Ai Shun
#31 - 2012-04-22 19:48:56 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
My 100% custom avatar binds me more to EVE than my multi-billion mission runner ships. She is UNIQUE. And, for what is worth, she can't be lost/destroyed by some hooligan. She's a permanent bond to EVE.


Not very unique. Most of the Asian type characters have a very, very similar look. Pop hairstyle, revealing clothes, oversized breasts. A fairly typical character. May as well bond with the other lookalikes.

If you want to see unique characters; have a look at the Winners' gallery @ http://www.eveportraits.com
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#32 - 2012-04-22 19:50:57 UTC
OK... CCP Karkur asked for improvements to avatars and WiS, so i come up with a little list... must be noted that most of it is beyond the reach of a skeleton crew like Team Avatar's and would require art work. BTW, most of the list has been rescued from an old thread by CCP Solomon, which i answered to with my main months ago.

Avatar additions:

- the ability to move the lips (simulated orbicularis oris and buccinator muscles) to show the teeth and make some actual smiles

- a range of face/arms/shoulder moles and birthmarks (would rock to have a Gurista bunny birthmark... Lol)

- more hairstyles (racial hairstyles included, specially replicating the old avatars')

- EARRINGS, not piercings, but actual EARRINGS (chandeliers, hoops, studs, drops...)

- rings, necklaces, wristbands & other jewels

- apply sleeve tattoos technology to legs to add socks/stocking/tights to wear under skirts/shorts

- what about painting fingernails? And what about painting foot nails and wearing sandals?

- Lavander/violet/plum lipstick & eyeshadow (pretty much please... how difficult can be?)

- fantasy colors for hair: electric blue, lime green, cherry red...

- a shade intensity slider for hair colors, like the one in make up colors

- NEx (cough) prices down by 70% + release of the 100+ Sisi / market tab undelivered items



Avatar fixes:

- squint eyes

- squint eyes

- bra strap bug for old Incursion characters

- the curve of the shoulder top has got low poly count and looks segmented under certain poses

- tight clothes wrap around the bottom of larger breast sizes... looks unrealistic and quite awful

- did i mention squint eyes?


Just for starters. Cool
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-04-22 20:16:39 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
OK... CCP Karkur asked for improvements to avatars and WiS, so i come up with a little list... must be noted that most of it is beyond the reach of a skeleton crew like Team Avatar's and would require art work. BTW, most of the list has been rescued from an old thread by CCP Solomon, which i answered to with my main months ago.

Avatar additions:

- the ability to move the lips (simulated orbicularis oris and buccinator muscles) to show the teeth and make some actual smiles

- a range of face/arms/shoulder moles and birthmarks (would rock to have a Gurista bunny birthmark... Lol)

- more hairstyles (racial hairstyles included, specially replicating the old avatars')

- EARRINGS, not piercings, but actual EARRINGS (chandeliers, hoops, studs, drops...)

- rings, necklaces, wristbands & other jewels

- apply sleeve tattoos technology to legs to add socks/stocking/tights to wear under skirts/shorts

- what about painting fingernails? And what about painting foot nails and wearing sandals?

- Lavander/violet/plum lipstick & eyeshadow (pretty much please... how difficult can be?)

- fantasy colors for hair: electric blue, lime green, cherry red...

- a shade intensity slider for hair colors, like the one in make up colors

- NEx (cough) prices down by 70% + release of the 100+ Sisi / market tab undelivered items



Avatar fixes:

- squint eyes

- squint eyes

- bra strap bug for old Incursion characters

- the curve of the shoulder top has got low poly count and looks segmented under certain poses

- tight clothes wrap around the bottom of larger breast sizes... looks unrealistic and quite awful

- did i mention squint eyes?


Just for starters. Cool



nice ideas ,but all realated to character custimation
i want to know if TA after these past months has some idea were to go with ambulation

R.S.I2014

Whitehound
#34 - 2012-04-22 20:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
I am against WiS, because I do not want any other reason to dock at a station than to pause or end a game session. I am not interested in CCP pursuing avatars and then to pay for it. I will make my opinion heard by unsubscribing whenever CCP thinks they can sell me what I do not want.

And calling people trolls does not win any sympathies by those who do pay for the game with subscriptions and have an opinion on what they want from the game. If you cannot respect the opinion of others but need to insult them by calling them trolls then you can go to hell if you are not already there.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Duvida
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-04-22 21:04:19 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
OK... CCP Karkur asked for improvements to avatars and WiS, so i come up with a little list... must be noted that most of it is beyond the reach of a skeleton crew like Team Avatar's and would require art work. BTW, most of the list has been rescued from an old thread by CCP Solomon, which i answered to with my main months ago.

Avatar additions:

- the ability to move the lips (simulated orbicularis oris and buccinator muscles) to show the teeth and make some actual smiles

- a range of face/arms/shoulder moles and birthmarks (would rock to have a Gurista bunny birthmark... Lol)

- more hairstyles (racial hairstyles included, specially replicating the old avatars')

- EARRINGS, not piercings, but actual EARRINGS (chandeliers, hoops, studs, drops...)

- rings, necklaces, wristbands & other jewels

- apply sleeve tattoos technology to legs to add socks/stocking/tights to wear under skirts/shorts

- what about painting fingernails? And what about painting foot nails and wearing sandals?

- Lavander/violet/plum lipstick & eyeshadow (pretty much please... how difficult can be?)

- fantasy colors for hair: electric blue, lime green, cherry red...

- a shade intensity slider for hair colors, like the one in make up colors

- NEx (cough) prices down by 70% + release of the 100+ Sisi / market tab undelivered items



Avatar fixes:

- squint eyes

- squint eyes

- bra strap bug for old Incursion characters

- the curve of the shoulder top has got low poly count and looks segmented under certain poses

- tight clothes wrap around the bottom of larger breast sizes... looks unrealistic and quite awful

- did i mention squint eyes?


Just for starters. Cool



These are all observant things about the avatar itself, but for WiS and interactions with others, they'd need to construct the places that the avatars would meet and make sure that several avatars could be on the screen without issue and such. When the avatars first were brought out, some folks couldn't use the WiS feature of CQ as it would cause their video cards to work much harder than without that enabled. Some of these cards reportedly, were newer, and some older. Laptop users, of course, had to stop CQ very quickly if they noticed this issue. Their alternative was 'the door'. That seems to have been addressed for one avatar. So could several avatars be viewed on a screen without that same issue arising?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#36 - 2012-04-22 21:38:19 UTC
Duvida wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
OK... CCP Karkur asked for improvements to avatars and WiS, so i come up with a little list... must be noted that most of it is beyond the reach of a skeleton crew like Team Avatar's and would require art work. BTW, most of the list has been rescued from an old thread by CCP Solomon, which i answered to with my main months ago.

Avatar additions:

- the ability to move the lips (simulated orbicularis oris and buccinator muscles) to show the teeth and make some actual smiles

- a range of face/arms/shoulder moles and birthmarks (would rock to have a Gurista bunny birthmark... Lol)

- more hairstyles (racial hairstyles included, specially replicating the old avatars')

- EARRINGS, not piercings, but actual EARRINGS (chandeliers, hoops, studs, drops...)

- rings, necklaces, wristbands & other jewels

- apply sleeve tattoos technology to legs to add socks/stocking/tights to wear under skirts/shorts

- what about painting fingernails? And what about painting foot nails and wearing sandals?

- Lavander/violet/plum lipstick & eyeshadow (pretty much please... how difficult can be?)

- fantasy colors for hair: electric blue, lime green, cherry red...

- a shade intensity slider for hair colors, like the one in make up colors

- NEx (cough) prices down by 70% + release of the 100+ Sisi / market tab undelivered items



Avatar fixes:

- squint eyes

- squint eyes

- bra strap bug for old Incursion characters

- the curve of the shoulder top has got low poly count and looks segmented under certain poses

- tight clothes wrap around the bottom of larger breast sizes... looks unrealistic and quite awful

- did i mention squint eyes?


Just for starters. Cool



These are all observant things about the avatar itself, but for WiS and interactions with others, they'd need to construct the places that the avatars would meet and make sure that several avatars could be on the screen without issue and such. When the avatars first were brought out, some folks couldn't use the WiS feature of CQ as it would cause their video cards to work much harder than without that enabled. Some of these cards reportedly, were newer, and some older. Laptop users, of course, had to stop CQ very quickly if they noticed this issue. Their alternative was 'the door'. That seems to have been addressed for one avatar. So could several avatars be viewed on a screen without that same issue arising?


Well, as far as i recall, some CCP developer claimed that they've had several avatars on a CQ on test computers. As we don't know about Reykjavik fire department being called to CCP's HQ, we can asume they adressed the "card burning" issue with some optimization. Big smile

Seriously, IIRC, the heavier toll on cards are post-processing FX, which are independent of the amount of objects shown on screen. I don't think that the models are geometry heavy to any card within minspecs, so there shouldn't be much more difficult to run several avatars than one alone.

Multiplayer issues probably stem from other than GFX. All in all it is not that diffcult to load two avatars isntead of one; what's difficult is to make them interact in a "excellent" way. That requires animations, which are a very specialyzed job (and probably CCP's animators just were laid off).

The whole point is that going multiplayer even inside the CQ requires a serious commitment that goes beyond assigning 7 developers to a skeleton crew and tell them to prototype stuff and finish what was left form the failed Incarna release cycle.

All in all let's say we get to be heard and magically CCP changes their mind and decides to provide some original WiS content in 2012.... what would we ask for? Putting two stuffed parrots in a cage, cycling idle animations & ignoring each other ad eternum? Or do we expect them to somehow interact? FAI: Should avatars of different gender 'look' at each other? Should that be authomated or should be left to players via /emotes (/check boobz...Lol)?

In a sense, social content is quti ecomplex as most of it would involve designign non-evident stuff (animations like i explained above) but also figure out mechanics that make social interaction a rewarding experience. As someone put it, let's say you go meet someone and there are unexpected guests and... what goes next? Why do capsuleers meet?
Ai Shun
#37 - 2012-04-22 21:42:32 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
The whole point is that going multiplayer even inside the CQ requires a serious commitment that goes beyond assigning 7 developers to a skeleton crew and tell them to prototype stuff and finish what was left form the failed Incarna release cycle.


This is why WiS as envisaged by you is unlikely to happen before your subscription runs out P

Support WiS developed by a full team with the budget of a full game; designed and developed for Capsuleers and a whole new market of players looking for a social, industrial and manufacturing game within EVE.


Katerwaul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-04-22 21:48:26 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
I am against WiS, because I do not want any other reason to dock at a station than to pause or end a game session. I am not interested in CCP pursuing avatars and then to pay for it. I will make my opinion heard by unsubscribing whenever CCP thinks they can sell me what I do not want.


We currently have these other additional uses for docking in a station:
-Refitting Ships
-Repairing Ships & Modules
-Accepting/Requesting/Completing Missions with Agents
-Spending Loyalty Points
-Unloading/Loading cargo and drones
-Waiting for aggression timers to end
-Not being in space when there are enemies who may open fire on you
-Safely managing your Industry/Science/Business transactions
-Trading Items with another Player
I'm sure there's more stuff, but I don't have my client open & they aren't all committed to memory.

Could you explain your point more clearly? I don't understand how turning your avatar picture into a being capable of moving around the station you're docked to is selling you something. I also don't understand how giving a player the option to do things while walking around in a station they're docked to that you can't do from within the ship is selling you something. It's more of an "adding free additional services to the package you're already subscribed to" if anything.

That's like saying that when you order a Quafe and they give you a free stim-pack they make you buy the stim-pack. No. They just figure more people will buy Quafe if it comes with free stims.
Working with everyone to improve New Eden -- Internet Spaceships Iz Serious Business.
RAP ACTION HERO
#39 - 2012-04-23 02:40:38 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
OK... CCP Karkur asked for improvements to avatars and WiS, so i come up with a little list... must be noted that most of it is beyond the reach of a skeleton crew like Team Avatar's and would require art work. BTW, most of the list has been rescued from an old thread by CCP Solomon, which i answered to with my main months ago.

Avatar additions:

- the ability to move the lips (simulated orbicularis oris and buccinator muscles) to show the teeth and make some actual smiles

- a range of face/arms/shoulder moles and birthmarks (would rock to have a Gurista bunny birthmark... Lol)

- more hairstyles (racial hairstyles included, specially replicating the old avatars')

- EARRINGS, not piercings, but actual EARRINGS (chandeliers, hoops, studs, drops...)

- rings, necklaces, wristbands & other jewels

- apply sleeve tattoos technology to legs to add socks/stocking/tights to wear under skirts/shorts

- what about painting fingernails? And what about painting foot nails and wearing sandals?

- Lavander/violet/plum lipstick & eyeshadow (pretty much please... how difficult can be?)

- fantasy colors for hair: electric blue, lime green, cherry red...

- a shade intensity slider for hair colors, like the one in make up colors

- NEx (cough) prices down by 70% + release of the 100+ Sisi / market tab undelivered items



Avatar fixes:

- squint eyes

- squint eyes

- bra strap bug for old Incursion characters

- the curve of the shoulder top has got low poly count and looks segmented under certain poses

- tight clothes wrap around the bottom of larger breast sizes... looks unrealistic and quite awful

- did i mention squint eyes?


Just for starters. Cool

this is exactly why wis was placed on slow burn.

vitoc erryday

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#40 - 2012-04-23 06:01:05 UTC
CCP karkur wrote:
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
Instead they claim to have a devoted team to Avatars

I love what Karkur does with the UI but she is proof that TA is a tinfoil hat.
do I need to leave the team for you guys to believe that the team is actually working on prototyping and avatars? Sad
I feel really bad if I am hurting my team's credibility and if people see me as some proof that CCP is lying to you, when all I am trying to do is to help players out.
I guess at the end of the day people will just believe what they want to believe, and I should probably not waste my days off getting annoyed at stuff like that.


Karkur, I know from experience that some people are simply never happy. You're right, don't waste your time getting angy. Just focus on making a product that you're proud of, while we keep happily playing.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....