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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Discussion thread about WiS

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Author
Ai Shun
#41 - 2012-04-23 06:28:54 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Karkur, I know from experience that some people are simply never happy. You're right, don't waste your time getting angy. Just focus on making a product that you're proud of, while we keep happily playing.


QFT. There is no point being mean to the developers when we are begging them to do something. Sod that. There is no reason to be mean to them at all.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#42 - 2012-04-23 06:43:55 UTC
What was the topic now...? Oh, yes, suggestions for avatar content.

I've come up i with another suggestion to put avatars to use with "baby steps":

Integrate full body preview on the new web site.

Same as CCP Ann & al. built that 3D rendering engine to show up ships, i wonder wether the Full body preview engine could be added to the web site. Enter a section called "Meet the capsuleers" with a "search character" function and there you go, the "official" portrait + bio + full body preview so people can show up their shape and clothes. This in turn could lead to a new threadnaught about rating full body avatars (FBAs?) and very specially would add some interest to the existing content. Plus would add sense to the customization options i already posted above.

"Fast and dirty", it would show some actual commitment to adding new WiS content and not just getting a return from Incarna's leftovers, all while Team Avatar could keep prototyping the long road to Tipperary.
Ai Shun
#43 - 2012-04-23 08:32:25 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
What was the topic now...? Oh, yes, suggestions for avatar content.

I've come up i with another suggestion to put avatars to use with "baby steps":

Integrate full body preview on the new web site.

Same as CCP Ann & al. built that 3D rendering engine to show up ships, i wonder wether the Full body preview engine could be added to the web site. Enter a section called "Meet the capsuleers" with a "search character" function and there you go, the "official" portrait + bio + full body preview so people can show up their shape and clothes. This in turn could lead to a new threadnaught about rating full body avatars (FBAs?) and very specially would add some interest to the existing content. Plus would add sense to the customization options i already posted above.

"Fast and dirty", it would show some actual commitment to adding new WiS content and not just getting a return from Incarna's leftovers, all while Team Avatar could keep prototyping the long road to Tipperary.


This is not content. It will not show commitment.

Honestly, why should they waste the time to build a preview of the avatars? What benefit does it give players or EVE? What is the content idea behind it?

If all you want is to stare at your avatar or feel admired, why don't you try something like Second Life or similar where you have all those options, you can build things yourself and enjoy those vainglorious moments? Or this. My six year old daughter plays this or something very similar to it. Not quite sure why a Turkish man would want to play that but hey!

So no. No. And no again. A few hundred times.

I do not want simple dress-up dollies for WiS. I want actual content and actual game-play. Please CCP, do not take a fast and dirty road and do something this inane. If you have the desire to work on WiS, make it meaningful!
CCP Bayesian
#44 - 2012-04-23 09:58:33 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Blunt and short, we can't trust your company on EVE avatars unless its acts match its words. Gray boxes in a gray environment & running scripts at each other can become vampires or capsuleers with equal ease. They don't commit CCP to anything. And so far Team Avatar's deliveries for 2012 are leftovers of Incarna, much as Crucible delivered the other racial CQs.


The development of the Incarna prototypes is being done by EVE developers. WoD is being developed entirely separately by a different team, in a different office, in a different country. Whilst you're right and gameplay can be modified to fit any scenario you fancy we are developing with EVE in mind and always have been. Don't mistake our focus on gameplay minute by minute for totally ignoring the bigger picture of how that sits in the EVE Universe and importantly what makes EVE the game it is.

Quote:
And there are no plans for new deliveries. There is no commitment to develop "baby steps" to keep improving WiS, rather a vague claim to be protoyping how to climb the Everest with your hands tied to your back. Good. It's nice to have a loooong term goal. But as we say in my country, a bit of "take it" is worth a thousand "we will give you".

And what CCP is giving us is a fraction of what they said they would give to us back in 2011, with no plans to deliver the rest of stuff, let alone anything that wouldn't take 3 years to put our hands on...


We are currently exclusively committed to prototyping until early June right now.

Please see some of my replies for more information on why we don't consider incremental development of WiS to be of best value:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=675525#post675525
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=673620#post673620
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667741#post667741

What we should definitely be doing is communicating our efforts on the Avatar stuff much more frequently.


EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#45 - 2012-04-23 12:34:34 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Since I missed in GD, I'll just put my 2 isk in here:
Stations are a great place to put content that simply can't be made to fit in space.

The industrial side of the game in particular could use some love, and stations are the place where research and production happen, so they are the ideal place to put real content to allow player interaction with those processes.


Yes, the idea of exploration and archeology for WiS is an excellent one. It was "showcased" in the trailer of eve forever.
The production of implants for instance could be done in industrial establishments as any other item that thus far doesn't have a dedicated production line. (PI did the same)

Materials should come from space, PI and from missions/lp stores and possibly "WiS exploration" and even DUST?

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Shandir
Indigo Archive
#46 - 2012-04-23 12:36:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Shandir
CCP Bayesian wrote:

What we should definitely be doing is communicating our efforts on the Avatar stuff much more frequently.

Why put off till tomorrow what you can do now, tell us what you've been prototyping, what you have planned, and give us an idea of what we can expect and when?

The black-box that is 'Incarna planning for the last 3+ years' is incredibly frustrating for *everyone*.

One half of the problem with Incarna was, and still is, a complete lack of communication. (The other half was NEX, which was a fail idea from the outset - the players would have told you so if you had asked - and I still think you should just remove AUR entirely from the game)

It feels at the moment like CCP is spending less resources on Incarna, but they're still making the same mistakes with those resources - no communication - no asking the players what they want - just quietly working away and praying that it doesn't suck.

When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#47 - 2012-04-23 13:10:33 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
(...)

Honestly, why should they waste the time to build a preview of the avatars?

(...)


Because it already has been built, my friend.

Full body view

As you can notice it is not the same 3D render engine as the one used in CQ, but a simpler one. And, as we already have a simple 3D engine on the website, it is not a stretch of imagination to wonder wether would be technically feasible for CCP Ann & al. to implement the function I suggested above.
CCP Bayesian
#48 - 2012-04-23 13:10:41 UTC
Shandir wrote:
[quote=CCP Bayesian]
When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?


We've put out at least one dev blog on the subject and held a roundtable at fanfest as well as posting in the forums. I spoke with the rest of the team earlier and we'll be putting out a new devblog on the Incarna prototyping effort in the next couple of weeks.

But to give some details we're currently prototyping core gameplay using Unity and concentrating on some exploration style gameplay which sticks close to the core principles in EVE. Where action in WiS is its own ecosystem with cross-links into the other parts of the game. One Universe isn't just a marketing slogan. Smile

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

RAP ACTION HERO
#49 - 2012-04-23 13:13:23 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
(...)

Honestly, why should they waste the time to build a preview of the avatars?

(...)


Because it already has been built, my friend.

Full body view

As you can notice it is not the same 3D render engine as the one used in CQ, but a simpler one. And, as we already have a simple 3D engine on the website, it is not a stretch of imagination to wonder wether would be technically feasible for CCP Ann & al. to implement the function I suggested above.

They would just put that in evegate, for active accounts.

vitoc erryday

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#50 - 2012-04-23 13:38:04 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Blunt and short, we can't trust your company on EVE avatars unless its acts match its words. Gray boxes in a gray environment & running scripts at each other can become vampires or capsuleers with equal ease. They don't commit CCP to anything. And so far Team Avatar's deliveries for 2012 are leftovers of Incarna, much as Crucible delivered the other racial CQs.


The development of the Incarna prototypes is being done by EVE developers. WoD is being developed entirely separately by a different team, in a different office, in a different country. Whilst you're right and gameplay can be modified to fit any scenario you fancy we are developing with EVE in mind and always have been. Don't mistake our focus on gameplay minute by minute for totally ignoring the bigger picture of how that sits in the EVE Universe and importantly what makes EVE the game it is.


Sorry, but I don't get what you mean here. EVE, apparently, is not about WiS, which is exactly what we are afraid of. Where does WiS fit into CCP Torfitrans' "circle of life"?

Or maybe you mean that WiS is supposed to be as FiS is? No solo, no casual, no consequences for griefing? Will WiS end up being about camping "the door" with 50 thugs to steal somebody's implants? Roll

Quote:
We are currently exclusively committed to prototyping until early June right now.

Please see some of my replies for more information on why we don't consider incremental development of WiS to be of best value:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=675525#post675525
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=673620#post673620
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=667741#post667741


Well, you see it like that , i see it as letting the avatars rot in jail for 2 or 3 years until nobody interested about WiS plays the game any longer. Straight

Quote:


What we should definitely be doing is communicating our efforts on the Avatar stuff much more frequently.



Completely. For good or bad, you're like paying the tiny interests from a massive debt and you got a huge lot of attention on you.

And, to be frank, closing the GD threadnaught has been a poor job in community management. We've been taking flak form trolls for monnths and CCP just played the ultimate trolling...
CCP Bayesian
#51 - 2012-04-23 13:43:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

Blunt and short, we can't trust your company on EVE avatars unless its acts match its words. Gray boxes in a gray environment & running scripts at each other can become vampires or capsuleers with equal ease. They don't commit CCP to anything. And so far Team Avatar's deliveries for 2012 are leftovers of Incarna, much as Crucible delivered the other racial CQs.


The development of the Incarna prototypes is being done by EVE developers. WoD is being developed entirely separately by a different team, in a different office, in a different country. Whilst you're right and gameplay can be modified to fit any scenario you fancy we are developing with EVE in mind and always have been. Don't mistake our focus on gameplay minute by minute for totally ignoring the bigger picture of how that sits in the EVE Universe and importantly what makes EVE the game it is.


Sorry, but I don't get what you mean here. EVE, apparently, is not about WiS, which is exactly what we are afraid of. Where does WiS fit into CCP Torfitrans' "circle of life"?

Or maybe you mean that WiS is supposed to be as FiS is? No solo, no casual, no consequences for griefing? Will WiS end up being about camping "the door" with 50 thugs to steal somebody's implants? Roll


I was basically saying that the prototype gameplay we're developing is for EVE not WoD. We're not developing grey-box prototypes without considering how that gameplay would end up interfacing with the rest of the EVE Universe.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

Cailais
Tao Expeditionary
#52 - 2012-04-23 13:51:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Cailais
CCP Bayesian wrote:
[/quote=Shandir]
CCP Bayesian wrote:

When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?


We've put out at least one dev blog on the subject and held a roundtable at fanfest as well as posting in the forums. I spoke with the rest of the team earlier and we'll be putting out a new devblog on the Incarna prototyping effort in the next couple of weeks.

But to give some details we're currently prototyping core gameplay using Unity and concentrating on some exploration style gameplay which sticks close to the core principles in EVE. Where action in WiS is its own ecosystem with cross-links into the other parts of the game. One Universe isn't just a marketing slogan. Smile


The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'? Or rather what its relevance is to what the original design for WiS was envisaged as?

C.
Shandir
Indigo Archive
#53 - 2012-04-23 14:16:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shandir
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Shandir wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:

When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?


We've put out at least one dev blog on the subject and held a roundtable at fanfest as well as posting in the forums. I spoke with the rest of the team earlier and we'll be putting out a new devblog on the Incarna prototyping effort in the next couple of weeks.

But to give some details we're currently prototyping core gameplay using Unity and concentrating on some exploration style gameplay which sticks close to the core principles in EVE. Where action in WiS is its own ecosystem with cross-links into the other parts of the game. One Universe isn't just a marketing slogan. Smile


[quote]
First off, we are identifying a few core ideas that have actually been bounced around for quite a while, but fell by the wayside due to scoping and our strong focus on providing a proving ground for our technology. We will then create playable gameplay prototypes of gameplay features and try them out within the team, and within the company. These prototypes are likely to be too raw to share with the greater player base but we will keep you updated with our progress and will share things we think are appropriate. The purpose of all this prototyping is to make sure we provide a strong vision for avatar gameplay, have a good demonstrable idea of why it is engaging and better understand the technology we will need to create in order to make it a reality.

The dev blog did not give us a lot of information, and promised updates.

As for the round table - I do not believe it was streamed, and I do not believe it was uploaded to Youtube - correct me if I'm wrong, but the above section in the dev blog is the only information 99.9% of the players have seen on gameplay for Incarna. If you could upload the round-table on Incarna gameplay features to youtube, that would be great.

Edit: I don't mean to sound dismissive - just if there's information that's out there, I/we would like to see it. If there isn't, we want more. Probably we want more anyway.
Cid Tazer
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-04-23 14:22:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Cid Tazer
Cailais wrote:
CCP Bayesian wrote:
[/quote=Shandir][quote=CCP Bayesian When is this communication that we've been promised going to start with regards to WiS?[/quote We've put out at least one dev blog on the subject and held a roundtable at fanfest as well as posting in the forums. I spoke with the rest of the team earlier and we'll be putting out a new devblog on the Incarna prototyping effort in the next couple of weeks But to give some details we're currently prototyping core gameplay using Unity and concentrating on some exploration style gameplay which sticks close to the core principles in EVE. Where action in WiS is its own ecosystem with cross-links into the other parts of the game. One Universe isn't just a marketing slogan. Smile


The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'? Or rather what its relevance is to what the original design for WiS was envisaged as C.


This sounds like an interesting way to enhance the currently cheesy archeology/hacking gameplay. The current push button maybe get bacon after 10 seconds gameplay really doesn't work very well. Maybe hacking could utilize something similar to Dues Ex: Human Revolution's hacking technique.

Archeology would be another matter perhaps use lore questions/riddles that range in difficulty but have a list large enough that it is hard to have a quick website lookup. Perhaps name that image or set of images.

Maybe use the current hacking module to open up an outer door or docking ring and then a handheld version for inside the station/complex. Would need a way to keep situational awareness so that your ship can be stolen but only if you aren't paying attention.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#55 - 2012-04-23 14:24:48 UTC
Off topic and non-constructive posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

CCP Bayesian
#56 - 2012-04-23 15:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Bayesian
Cailais wrote:
The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'?


Sure, the basic premise would be along the lines of exploring space to discover abandoned structures then going inside them to salvage what you can whilst dealing with any surprises expected and otherwise. This should be expanded on in the forthcoming devblog

We'd also include in that all the social spaces within stations and what not you'd previously expected so this isn't a replacement for other designs but actually provides a space for meaningful gameplay. It's also not the only idea we're working on but is certainly the most developed. The exciting thing is we're seeing some overlap between different ideas so the possibilities for extending WiS gameplay could be pretty awesome once the initial gameplay release is done.

EVE Software Engineer Team Space Glitter

oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-04-23 16:05:07 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Cailais wrote:
The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'?


Sure, the basic premise would be along the lines of exploring space to discover abandoned structures then going inside them to salvage what you can whilst dealing with any surprises expected and otherwise. This should be expanded on in the forthcoming devblog

We'd also include in that all the social spaces within stations and what not you'd previously expected so this isn't a replacement for other designs but actually provides a space for meaningful gameplay. It's also not the only idea we're working on but is certainly the most developed. The exciting thing is we're seeing some overlap between different ideas so the possibilities for extending WiS gameplay could be pretty awesome once the initial gameplay release is done.



CCP Karkur thanks for reading threads in the weekend and again you are doing a great job on the UI part of the game
but i hope you understand ,how frustating it sometimes was seeing multiple devblogs about that good work ,not getting any good info from Team Avatar stuff.

@ CCP Bayesian i really hope you give better info at your soon to come Blog
That last blog had no real info and referring to something people were watching at fanfest and we can,t see on the forums, didn,t help

but anyway thank you for reacting



R.S.I2014

Cailais
Tao Expeditionary
#58 - 2012-04-23 16:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Cailais
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Cailais wrote:
The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'?


Sure, the basic premise would be along the lines of exploring space to discover abandoned structures then going inside them to salvage what you can whilst dealing with any surprises expected and otherwise. This should be expanded on in the forthcoming devblog.

We'd also include in that all the social spaces within stations and what not you'd previously expected so this isn't a replacement for other designs but actually provides a space for meaningful gameplay. It's also not the only idea we're working on but is certainly the most developed. The exciting thing is we're seeing some overlap between different ideas so the possibilities for extending WiS gameplay could be pretty awesome once the initial gameplay release is done.


Ok, this gives us more detail to discuss and comment upon (and hopefully hear about in a dev blog). Obviously I think there needs to be careful consideration regarding transiting from your ship to another structure (i.e stations are safe havens for ships from attacks, do 'abandoned structures' offer the same state?)

Scaling may be an issue (what happens when all of PL try to squeeze into the same structure?). I rather get the impression that this exploration is orientated towards small teams or individuals? I'd be interested to hear what thoughts the dev teams have on that issue.

Certainly these structures offer both potential PVP and PVE orientated game play. And there is ample room to deliver different type of structures in different types of space (high, low, etc). To my mind it would appear that exploring such structures would be a 'high risk' venture in that a player would risk not only their clone, but also their ship? Which brings about what rewards would be comparable to such risk

Finally I would be interested to hear what correlation there would be between the gameplay of your proposed exploration (archaeology?) and the "vanilla" WiS social content. I could envisage players delving into such abandoned structures to bring back shiny items that have a relevance to WiS in station environments (and from there a natural lead onto contraband goods, smuggling and narcotic use).

Are there additional conceptual ideas you would like to hear off, or would like to propose to garner feed back on

C
The Hamilton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-04-23 16:16:00 UTC
It's nice to hear you guys are prototyping real gameplay. After a bit of an empty period and a boat load of posts all just asking for more clothes, it's very reassuring to hear that at least gameplay is still on the cards. That said, I still think including mini-games of gameplay features you want to test for TQ inside the current captains quarters is a great way to keep the die hard WiS fans a little happier than making them wait for a couple more years before ANY sign of added gameplay comes.

All the best with bringing life back to a comatose project.
Oberine Noriepa
#60 - 2012-04-23 16:55:25 UTC
CCP Bayesian wrote:
Cailais wrote:
The concept of exploration type game play sounds interesting, but that remains a rather tentative and vague idea. Are you able to explain what you mean by 'exploration style gameplay'?


Sure, the basic premise would be along the lines of exploring space to discover abandoned structures then going inside them to salvage what you can whilst dealing with any surprises expected and otherwise. This should be expanded on in the forthcoming devblog

We'd also include in that all the social spaces within stations and what not you'd previously expected so this isn't a replacement for other designs but actually provides a space for meaningful gameplay. It's also not the only idea we're working on but is certainly the most developed. The exciting thing is we're seeing some overlap between different ideas so the possibilities for extending WiS gameplay could be pretty awesome once the initial gameplay release is done.

Since you seem to be in a question answering mood, can you say anything about this?

Oberine Noriepa wrote:
At this point, I'm only wondering if WIS will receive a DX11 treatment? I mean, the Trinity side of the client is, so is it reasonable to assume that Carbon will as well?

P