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[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

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Author
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#61 - 2016-04-05 13:05:49 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs?


It remains to be seen whether this is still possible after the patch.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Feodor Romanov
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2016-04-05 15:00:26 UTC
Every capital ship undocked is a good thing. I think capitals in nulls will be fine. Low sec incursions have some specific. Low inc. runners need to move their stuff (ships, ammo, etc) from incursion to incursion every few days. That would be hard to do it with capitals because of ships fatique. In theory this can be realised by placing capital ships to most of lowsec regions. That is very expensive but can make sense because of rised income. Of course Sansha would need some hictors in the NPC fleets.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#63 - 2016-04-05 15:05:35 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs?


It remains to be seen whether this is still possible after the patch.




I rather shut my mouth now, else it really wont be that much once citadel hits TQ...
Aleqs Villint
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-04-05 16:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleqs Villint
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.


Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good.

E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap.

Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly.

You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page.



This is a disengenuous argument and you're misrepresenting the opposition forces in this scenario. It does nothing for you to claim a single HIC can't survive against a gang of Supers while pretending the HIC's pilot would not also have supercaptial support on-grid or very close-by. Moreover, actually landing tackle in the incursion systems is unrealistic compared to simply having a log-off trap on the gate into the incursion constellation.



I see no problem with allowing Capitals in low/null Incursions. If it results in greater site times (unlikely, considering warping between sites is the biggest time loss), then consider it to be an advantage to running them in riskier environments.

Highsec incursion sites are already run in perfect or near-perfect safety and the sheer amount of money being made there is absolutely staggering for how low risk it is.
Jack Roulette
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2016-04-05 17:00:22 UTC
My gut says this would only be acceptable if the incursions had a chance to escalate with something like drifters with DDs and AI that prioritizes capital targets. There has to be a real risk of losing capitals to the site NPCs. Otherwise you're just raising the skill ceiling for incursion fleets by another very large notch, and pushing that content even farther away from newer players.

Honestly, I don't think anyone actually has a clue how the new caps will really operate, and the meta certainly hasn't adjusted to the changes. It's FAR to early for anyone to really make informed decisions about this subject. Personally I think CCPs time would be better spent on rebalancing the sites, adding new content, and making more of the sites viable.
NinjaTurtle
THIGH GUYS
#66 - 2016-04-05 17:20:17 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaTurtle
Hate to say it but Plaid Rabbit's list of ideas is really more of a list of why you shouldn't even bother. There's literally nothing in there that stands out as a reason to actually take the time to do it. It's like saying something is so cripplingly bad that it'd be impossible to exploit therefore it's a good idea
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#67 - 2016-04-05 17:33:58 UTC
Oh yeah about the whole HIC trap stuff: forget it. You're not holding even remotely long enough on grid to get ANYTHING there before you explode.

Add Sites specifically for Capitals, and have the Sansha in there turbobubble everything. Else, a capitalfleet will be almost impossible to pin down.
Alternatively, remove the remote repair impedancy from hics/tone it down to 50 or 33%.
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#68 - 2016-04-05 17:55:02 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change.


Is it really a positive change for the game where one of the only pve experiences in the game that not only encourages grouping but requires it and adequetly rewards it changes to need 2/3 less people by allowing bigger ships into the sites?

Except compared to hisec, very few nullsec incursions ever get done due low rewards/risk, the need for specialized fits, numbers of pilots and the fact they only spawn in your space every once in a while.

So out here, adding options to do incursions with fewer pilots in less specialized fits might actually increase the amount of grouping and teamwork.
Aleqs Villint
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2016-04-05 19:00:14 UTC
Jack Roulette wrote:
My gut says this would only be acceptable if the incursions had a chance to escalate with something like drifters with DDs and AI that prioritizes capital targets. There has to be a real risk of losing capitals to the site NPCs. Otherwise you're just raising the skill ceiling for incursion fleets by another very large notch, and pushing that content even farther away from newer players.

Honestly, I don't think anyone actually has a clue how the new caps will really operate, and the meta certainly hasn't adjusted to the changes. It's FAR to early for anyone to really make informed decisions about this subject. Personally I think CCPs time would be better spent on rebalancing the sites, adding new content, and making more of the sites viable.


The risk comes from other players. Implying that there needs to be an additional layer of risk on top of that just because you're using a captal ship shows a fundimental misunderstanding of how easy it is to complete Incursion sites.

Now if you're saying that using a cap ship escalates to bigger rewards in exchange for risk, I could get on board with that.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#70 - 2016-04-05 21:17:11 UTC
It might work if caps and supers triggered extra spawns.

For those who don't know, incursion rats have no bounties and their salvage value is minimal.

This might actually work the way WH escalations were originally intended to work... Or it could work the way the new WH escalations will work???

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#71 - 2016-04-05 21:21:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
CCP Fozzie wrote:


do you think it would be a good idea to allow capital ships into lowsec and nullsec incursion sites after the Citadel expansion?


How? Would you be allowing them to take the gates or would you be completely removing the gates?

If you allow caps to take accel gates, will this affect other PVE?

If you remove the gates from low/null incursions, will you do the same in hisec? This would change things quite a bit...

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.

Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#72 - 2016-04-05 23:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Incursion rats have a much lower sig then normal rats, so they tend to act a bit differently then standard rats. Can you give me the Avatar's gun resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/dps of those guns so I can do a more detailed comparison?

The optimal range image you linked me doesn't show it's tracking. I'm sure you can push out that far you stack optimal, but what does that to to your tracking (But it's at least pulse, so there's a chance to get that working). That's only 4500 dps. That is 4x the DPS of a normal incursion Nightmare. It's less then 2x of a incursion Vindicator. And doesn't provide long-range webs. Yes it's better, but not game-breakingly so. It's also 50x more expensive.

I think you missed my point of getting one guy separated from the group. Do you not think it's possible to get one guy separated from the group, or do you think it's not possible to kill them once they are separated before help arrives? Try getting 60 people to not jump through a gate, then get them to all jump through the gate all within the same tick. You'll see how hard it is. You only need (or want) one straggler to get caught in your trap.

The sites are already getting completed in a matter of minutes, this is something I think you're missing. Good groups can do a TCRC in under 8 minutes, payout-to-payout, which is the time from completing a site, to completing the next site, and all the travel involved in it. There's enough traveling involved to prevent things from becoming terribly overpowered. Some of these sites are doable in 480 seconds. Time efficiency is already important. Every 40 seconds added to the site time is a ~11% loss in isk/hr. Aligning down the gate and taking the gate alone accounts for ~30 seconds. Warping to the next site adds in another ~60s. That gives you ~390 seconds in site. Yes, bringing a titan in will be faster. But your guns still have to cycle, you still have to lock targets. You can only Blap the site so hard. Even with 60 Titans doing a TCRC, assuming they apply 100% damage to the target... they'll take the 8 minute site to about 6. (the MTAC still has to burn to the MTAC factory before you can apply DPS, we've had 4 fleets contesting a TCRC, and still didn't put a dent into it). So with a fleet 50x more expensive then what they use in hisec, you can make about 30% more isk/hr.

PS: I also can't wait for 60 titans being in one incursion to be the start of the next B-R.

I do agree it'll be safer in lowsec, but there's a lot more neuts running around in lowsec as well. More people to track your patterns, and it's less unusual for there to be a neut in local. More chances that neut is ready to attack you.

I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now. But if that happens, go run the mothership in something like cruisers or T3s. That will cause the incursion to despawn and shut down the incursion, cutting off their money making.

You can go on SISI and see the stats for the guns. I have no doubt they can track incursion frigates. The part about range was to point out that I don't need to burn 150km to kill a structure. It isn't moving so I don't really need tracking. And sure, the DPS might seem a little low with scorch. But again, I am doing the tower bash at least twice as fast as a subcap fleet with low DPS ammo at long ranges. It will be much faster because I don't have to burn into range like subcaps and it will be even faster if I can burn into higher DPS ammo range. The tower bash is the longest part of these sites. Which means I am getting completion times upwards of minutes less than subcapitals. All praise the isk firehose!

You have to understand that PL, NCdot, etc. are not as dumb as the highsec carebears running incursions. They can follow orders and do it well. If the FC says "Titans in first. Okay. Supers are next. Okay. FAXes come on in." There is .0000000001% chance of a super or a titan still being on grid as the last thing. Go ahead and blow your load to kill a FAX or two and camp the system afterwards. Just remember that you will just brought a fight to PL, NCdot, etc. who are going to form up to kill you because you are there. They aren't afraid to back up their subcap fleet with titans, supers, carriers, and FAXes. Home field advantage. You might get lucky, but I doubt it.

While it may seem like Goons and PL aren't going to cooperate on things right now, that doesn't mean they won't 6 months from now when Goons take Delve or whatever crappy space they end up taking. And you clearly don't know about lowsec. If you think the amount of blues in nullsec is bad you need to visit lowsec. They blue each other so much I often wonder what the point of playing is if you have no one to fight. It won't take long term blues to make incursion grinding with supers a reality. They will be more than happy to temp blue for a week and may even cooperate to max the isk they gain for a week.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#73 - 2016-04-05 23:22:51 UTC
Here is what I think should happen:

  1. Make a new class of sites designed for capital ships or mixed capital ship and subcap fleets. have it work for 100+ ship fleets. Make the payouts worth the risk and the time, effort, and expense of the fleet.
  2. Ideas based off of the new content: You could have a site that is finishing off a RFed Citadel coming out of RF. Have another where you have to kill a titan and a few supers with a support fleet. Have the last one be defending a citadel against an RFing dread fleet.
  3. Create Hictor and Dictor rats. Put the risk in incursions of this magnatude for those who choose to run them.
  4. Remove the cyno jamming of incursion systems. Also, make the new sites not deadspace so cynos can be lit inside them.
  5. Optional but helpful:
  6. If removing the cyno jamming is out of the question, or even if it is in question, create a, perhaps SoE, interdictor that can be BlOps bridged. Ideally it would mirror BlOps BS so that it wouldn't have a covert cloak, but could move quickly when cloaked.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#74 - 2016-04-06 01:08:12 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time.

Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me.


If you compare it to the hisec incursion faucet, it'd still be next to nothing. Hisec incursions are run non-stop 23/7, by 100+ pilots at once. When you get the lucky drop in your backyard, why not let the people take a bit of money out of it.

And even if you figure some way of totally OP through the incursions that I don't know of, and do them twice as fast as hisec, so what? It's pilots, undocked in low/null, ready to be shot. If you don't want to shoot them, fine, that's your choice, but at least they don't have concord there to rescue them. That still provides a decent balance.



I think this should be tested in practice. It's quite likely that you are right - I'm nervous about adding them, but not outright against them.

Also highsec incursions should not be paying liquid ISK. If they paid just LP the overfarming would stop, the LP would rise in price, and incursion groups would be encouraged to screw over other incursion groups in order to keep the supply of LP as tight as possible.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#75 - 2016-04-06 01:13:28 UTC
Feodor Romanov wrote:
Every capital ship undocked is a good thing. I think capitals in nulls will be fine. Low sec incursions have some specific. Low inc. runners need to move their stuff (ships, ammo, etc) from incursion to incursion every few days. That would be hard to do it with capitals because of ships fatique. In theory this can be realised by placing capital ships to most of lowsec regions. That is very expensive but can make sense because of rised income. Of course Sansha would need some hictors in the NPC fleets.




And, of course, Sansha HIC BPCs should drop from some sites; ideally with a drop rate that targets an 800-1500m price point for the ship.

Lowsec runners will probably keep a rigged and fitted capital in each of 4 or 5 locations, and if they use any extreme bling modules, those will be carted around separately in either interceptors or JFs.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Oxide Ammar
#76 - 2016-04-06 07:20:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
To all who are requesting changes to current incursion to make it harder or able to pin down the capital fleet have forget the OP about, it was simple question by Fozzie asking if it is good idea or not, He didn't stated anything other than altering deadspace restriction to allow capital ships and that is all. As incursion runner in Highsec I consider it a good idea in general for multiple reasons:

1- It adds extra reason for any hisec pilots to try living in lowsec or null.

2- Forming 40 man fleet in nullsec in cheap fits to grind incursion sites is painful, they would rather prefer that fleet go to pvp than doing this, but on the other hand forming 8-9 man fleet in capitals farming incursion sites for couple of hours might be actually doable.

3- The moment CCP announced drifter incursion everyone thought these were meant to be for capitals but we got disappointed when they stated they aren't, drifters DD one shotting ships is crap especially with low payout to compensate so they can leave sansha incursion out of capital formula and allow it for drifters but up the pay out by much.

4- Since incursion move randomly every 7 days to different constellation, I doubt they will produce major isk faucet here, because you can't guarantee that next spawn will be in your sov space to run them endlessly like in Hisec.

3- As it stated before every capital ship undock is good thing, it creates fights and more variety reasons to use capital other than big fights which like it happens once or twice per month if we are lucky.

4- Everyday CCP breaks invisible restriction wall is good thing to the game, It gives you the feel of sandbox-y game.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#77 - 2016-04-06 07:33:23 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I'm not a capital pilot or incursion farmer, but every kind of pve that allows capital ships so far has been completely broken by them


On the other hand, there would be a reason to actually want to run incursions in places other than high.


Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Kithran
#78 - 2016-04-06 11:44:05 UTC
Aliventi wrote:

You can go on SISI and see the stats for the guns. I have no doubt they can track incursion frigates. The part about range was to point out that I don't need to burn 150km to kill a structure. It isn't moving so I don't really need tracking. And sure, the DPS might seem a little low with scorch. But again, I am doing the tower bash at least twice as fast as a subcap fleet with low DPS ammo at long ranges. It will be much faster because I don't have to burn into range like subcaps and it will be even faster if I can burn into higher DPS ammo range. The tower bash is the longest part of these sites. Which means I am getting completion times upwards of minutes less than subcapitals. All praise the isk firehose!


While I agree the OP is missing things I feel I should point out you've missed something important here - the 150km distance he talks about isn't from warp to the structure, its from warp in to second gate, that warp in to third gate and then from final warp in to structure.

The main reason a TPPH is the longest site to complete is that distance and even if the titan fit allows max dps to be applied from the final warp in without moving you still have the issue of the travel to the previous two gates.

A quick summary of the three HQ sites (as I don't think capital useage will really be beneficial to the pilot in the smaller sites as they stand):

TPPH - 3 rooms, gate to next room becomes active once all rats killed, 1 wave in first two rooms, 3 waves in last room then tower becomes shootable. In high sec probably takes around 15 minutes to complete, 2-3 minutes of which is shooting tower.

NRF - single room, 4 waves of rats furthers spawn approx 100 km from warp in, rats spawn in different (but known) locations for each wave, 10-12 minutes to complete depending both on fleet composition and how many rats actually spawn.

TCRC - single room, tower to kill which completes site however rats stay on grid even then, rats respawn on a timer once destroyed (some don't but most do, timer lengths vary by rat). Tower reps rapidly unless mechanic involving moving a 7500m3 item 10ish km every 2 minutes takes place, source of item and destination approx 100km from warp in.
Skyrider Deathknight
EliteExSuperCapitalFCJoeBarbarian
#79 - 2016-04-06 11:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Skyrider Deathknight
I'm an null sec incursion FC for my alliance, for those that are unaware null sec incursions allow 50% more people on grid and payout about 20% more, however most of that extra payout is negated through null sec taxes.

I would like to throw out some points that have yet to be mentioned.

1 - There are times we struggle to keep a HQ fleet alive or even get it off the ground just because we don't have the pilots interested within incursions. And comments have come up that highsec is better because of the risk vs reward. So it's just more convenient to log a highsec alt and farm a highsec incursion.

2 - People have alts dedicated to different things. For example all capital focus pilots have the skills to fly a cheap battleship and fly within incursions but the risk to move a battleship through null sec be it through a fleet or on it's own, reaching back to point 1 that it's just better to log a highsec alt to run incursions due to the payouts being similar.

3 - I theory craft incursions for null sec and looking primarily at dreads and carriers, there isn't really a good way to have a full fleet of capitals to run these incursions in a very effective manor, however if we look at Dreads and Carriers being more of a support based role to help speed up the site I could see them being able to shave off anywhere between 1-3minutes off a site depending which site is ran.

Just how PvP involving capitals most of the time it's capitals supporting a subcap fleet as full on capital warfare with subcap fleets supporting has dwindled in recent times so this will may actually provide a small amount of content for capital pilots.

4 - These new citadels in nullsec, we'll have to use the new L citadels to be able to dock capitals as mediums won't allow docking of dreads & carriers. For those that are unaware carriers common use outside of pvp is for suit-casing due to the 1mil SMB they have (for highsec carebears this is basically a combat capable bowhead). So before an incursion has even started being ran we've committed billions of assets dedicated to pve.

So with that in mind is the current 20% extra payout and 50% more on grid (that is rarely fully filled) really worth risking everything we'll have to move?
I believe it's doesn't. Which I have concerns with increasing risk levels to null sec incursion runners with the new patch. I believe capitals could be the answer to re-balance to risk VS reward

Will capital ships make a huge impact on how incursions are being ran?
As mentioned above and I do not wish to divulge my crafting in such a public space but dreads and carriers will improve site times slightly when they are around, if they are allowed doesn't mean it'll always be the case that they will there running.

You have to also consider how skill intensive a capital ship is to be effective, for those that scream "But skill injectors" they come at a price when you consider the amount of SP needed for a capital to be effective.

I've yet to see what a titan / super can do but i'm going based off being able to ship a L Citadel into an incursion. As I personally don't see my alliance or any alliance being happy with such high value ships being away from any kind of combat zones and that could die to rats. Also you would have to field an XL Citadel if you want to have the pleasure of letting them dock.

Capitals can die to incursion rats.
Capitals can and have died to incursion rats before on a gate. I won't name and shame those pilots but Outuni's were involved. 1 Outuni is deadly to even a battleship, and in 2 of 3 HQ sites there are 2 on grid. In an NRF 1-3 could spawn. Lets not forget that a sieged dread has no outside support so if it gets neuted that cap is gone until it's out of siege. Yes there are capital cap boosters now, however that takes up a fitting slot and uses charges that take up 96-125m3 cargo space. Then you have to manage your own personal local reps so going afk for a few seconds you could find yourself out of cap and missing most of your tank. Which then you're screwed over because you're in siege so you may have to watch your capital die without that cap booster.
Vibiana
Frontier Trading Company
#80 - 2016-04-06 16:01:32 UTC
Tl;dr without new sites caps are not needed/benefitial.
If task takes no dev time, it may be done, just to see how people use it.
If otherwise, time could be spent elsewhere.