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[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

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Author
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#21 - 2016-04-05 00:57:39 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
My biggest worry is the lack of risk vs. the reward. Essentially if things go south with a Subcap fleet lots of ships tend to die. I have a feeling that won't be the case with capitals running the sites. Especially since you can just sacrifice a ship and cyno everyone out.

Are you going to make Dictor and Hictor Incursion NPCs? Sure, there are a few pointing ships in these sites, but I don't think enough to keep a super or a titan tackled/keep a sieged dread or a triaged FAX tackled.

Can these sites kill a triaged FAX in a reasonable amount of time? If these sites can't kill a FAX quickly then low/nullsec incursions become virtually risk free.

Can titan's DD the rats to death? I have a feeling the AoE DD will be quite popular with these fleets if it can insta-clear waves.

Players will sit here and claim "I spent a ton of isk making this fleet therefore I deserve to have less risk." I agree with that. There is a fine line between less risk and risk-free. Ensure that this will be far from risk-free even with titans and supers and a mess of FAX on the field.


Most losses in an incursion fleet aren't due to tackle. It's stupid mistakes like not broadcasting for reps. I know exactly how to extract from a site, and I drill all the FCs I work with on how to extract. We all know how to exit it, so it's not a huge issue.

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2016-04-05 01:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
There's a couple arguments:The rats are primarily frigates and cruisers. Caps, even with HAW, won't do a great job of tracking frigates, and those tend to be a bit of a bottleneck in the site speed. In addition to that you have lock time on the 3 waves.
...
4: Unless the new guns have 10x higher signature resolutions, they will have worse applied damage. Incursion groups are already doing pretty strange fits to be able to hit cruisers effectively with BSs. (My love goes out to all the shield vindies) It will be challenging to find good fits that will apply a large part of the capital damage to all the incursion rats, which have stupidly low signature radii.

I think you may be underestimating carriers. They can lock super fast with a Networked Sensor Array, and fighters are pretty effective against cruisers. Frigates could still be an issue, but surely with a group like that you'd have someone to paint and web targets.

Carriers might have issues with their fighters getting owned though, depending on how much the rats want to target them.


You don't realize how fast people do these in hisec. The frigates get 1 or 2 shotted. Cruisers die insanely fast. Fighters have travel time.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#23 - 2016-04-05 01:01:02 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.

Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#24 - 2016-04-05 01:01:08 UTC
The cyno jammer in incursion systems would have to go if these were added. And I would recommend adding gateless sites specifically for capitals.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#25 - 2016-04-05 01:02:32 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
So you're saying that there will be more pilot deaths as a result of capitals being added to the sites or less deaths? That these sites will be as hard to do as they are now even with the massive differences between caps and subcaps?

Why do people want caps in incursions in the first place? Because they want to fly capitals more? Sure. I want reasons to use caps more as well. But let's not pretend that it won't make incursions easier.

Sure it will make lowsec and nullsec incursions easier, but with great risk. There are always people around that would like to kill capitals and it's hard to hide while running incursions. Since you can't hide, the only options are to run or fight. If you run you're not making money, and if you fight you're probably losing money.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2016-04-05 01:05:54 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.

Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?


Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#27 - 2016-04-05 01:09:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.

Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?

Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.

That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support.

Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2016-04-05 01:16:44 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Plaid, I wouldn't think the dps is the problem. I think the massive difference in carrier HP + repping abilities of the FAX'S is what would break the sites, as the NPCs were not designed to deal with it.


What's the real difference if I bring 3 logi ongrid (in faxes) or 9 (in T2 cruisers)? People have figured out the bare minimum number of logi to do the site. As long as you have enough repping power to have more reps then the rats DPS, then you have enough logi. It's a numbers game. Your logi HPS > the rats DPS, you don't lose ships. People have figured this number out. It's 8 for a TCRC, 6 for a NRF, 4 for a TPPH. Groups bring 9 logi just to have room for someone to d/c.

What's the difference if I bring 3 faxes or 9 t2 cruisers? Keeping people alive in incursions is more about them broadcasting on time to get reps, then about repping power.
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-04-05 01:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Well that's my point really.


Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change.


Is it really a positive change for the game where one of the only pve experiences in the game that not only encourages grouping but requires it and adequetly rewards it changes to need 2/3 less people by allowing bigger ships into the sites?

I think that's a valid point to consider.


As is a valid point that nullsec players don't always have the numbers available that highsec players do. And that putting caps into the site is a high risk actvity. I'm not splashing cold water on the idea. Just want to make sure it's all considered.
Xynthiar
Get Off My Lawn
#30 - 2016-04-05 01:24:31 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.

Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?


AoE DD doesn't work on NPCs, at least at the moment.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2016-04-05 01:29:15 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:

Plus only Supers and Titans are "immune" to tackle (they will now have 100+ WCS I think). The rats can still tackle Carriers and Dreads.

Why would I ever use a carrier when a super carrier can do everything it can better than it can? Why would I use a dread that has to siege to do anything when a Titan can do everything it can do better than it can and has an AoE DD that will slaughter waves of rats?

Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.

That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support.

Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely.


Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#32 - 2016-04-05 01:34:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.

That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support.

Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely.


Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you.

And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2016-04-05 01:43:23 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Well that's my point really.


Taking a site that needs 9 pilots currently and turning it into a site that only needs 3 is a massive change.


HQs sites take up to 60 pilots, which is normally 51 DPS, 9 logi. This means you could change it to 57 DPS, 3 logi... if you really really trust those logi and their internet connection.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd use FAX or T2 logi if given the choice. T2 logi travel through the long sites faster, and either provide a remote sebo (for basi fits) or 3 remote tracking computers (for scimi fits). AB Basis and Scimis are already slow for incursion sites, you have to make sure they are in rep range you before the next wave spawns. I believe the speed of faxes will be a tradeoff you have to consider. You'll put yourself at a maximum speed you can do the site (which will cap your isk/hr) but you'll have more dps ongrid.

And Last I checked, FAXes can't warp during their triage cycle, so you'll have to wait for that to cycle down before you can move on to the next site. So you'll have to wait (lower your isk/hr) before you can start the next site. I think that will prevent them from being OP in incursions.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#34 - 2016-04-05 01:43:27 UTC
I'm apprehensive about this.

It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans.

I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic.

I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Aleqs Villint
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-04-05 01:44:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleqs Villint
You catch a Titan like you always do: in transit. A Capital ship can't cyno into an Incursion system, and incursion appearance is random. This means, best case, a Titan has to take at least one gate, likely more. I can think of a few ways you can catch a low or null Titan on a gate.

E: I mention Titan here, but the same holds true for all capital ships. And it's worth pointing out that some pimpfit Incursion Battleships are worth much more than a Carrier or Dread.
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2016-04-05 01:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Titans won't be used in these sites unless their pilot is cool with losing a 100bn isk ship. They won't be a problem. Supers won't be either. If anything it'll just be normal carriers/dreads/faxs.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-04-05 01:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Please rat in a titan. Please. And stay there for hours on end. PLEASE.

That isn't a reasoned reply. There is a massive difference between a single titan ratting in sactums and a fleet of supers and titans running an incursion with FAX support.

Edit: Also, ratting in a titan would be pretty easy to do safely.


Okay, the more boring version: If you have a titan undocked, in-space, and away from a pos shield, then the titan is vulnerable to be tackled. You have to move the titan to the incursion. You have to dock/undock (once citidels come out), move around systems occasionally. You have to take gates to get into the next site. All of these points you'll be very vulnerable to someone setting up a trap to get you.

And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.


Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good.

E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#38 - 2016-04-05 02:04:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm apprehensive about this.

It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans.

I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic.

I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support.


The incursions spawn in random locations, and despawn after about a week. So people couldn't setup a magic farm in the back corner of the map and farm it for a year.

And AoE titans might work, but you'd have to get into the middle of the spawn. The spawns are far enough apart the fact that you have to burning to them would prevent doing the sites in a broken way. TPPHs require about 200km of travel, NRFs require about 120 KM of travel (to bomb half the wave, but not the full wave), TCRCs just require a bunch of dps applied to the tower.

E: Oh, and yes, I'd say put it on TQ, if it gets abused horribly, fix it, by either removing it, or addressing the problem.

E: And I think dedicated cap site to get people undock is a great idea. I'm hoping this will be a starting point to tell CCP that we want some more capital content, and this could be a starting point for them considering it more seriously.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#39 - 2016-04-05 02:10:41 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.


Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good.

E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap.

Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly.

You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#40 - 2016-04-05 02:19:15 UTC
I notice that most of the controversy so far seems to be about supers and titans. Perhaps the solution would be to only allow normal capitals and exclude supercaps?