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[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

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Author
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#81 - 2016-04-06 16:04:09 UTC
Skyrider Deathknight wrote:
So with that in mind is the current 20% extra payout and 50% more on grid (that is rarely fully filled) really worth risking everything we'll have to move?
I believe it's doesn't. Which I have concerns with increasing risk levels to null sec incursion runners with the new patch. I believe capitals could be the answer to re-balance to risk VS reward


On the subject of risk/reward here. Honestly blingy pirate battleships are more at risk, as when you lose those it tends to hurt. Capitals on the other hand, after insurance, aren't actually that bad. Using many capitals very well could result in less risk, even though lossmails may be flashier.

Additionally, with many capitals around, it raises the bar with what is needed to interfere with incursion runners. If you don't have caps of your own, your ability to mess with caps is limited at best. This is terrible design, especially in conjunction with the vastness of null. Krabification.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#82 - 2016-04-06 16:33:04 UTC
Simple opinion

If just allowing caps to enter sites than i am against it mostly due to hp pools those ships are bringing in vs rats that did not get designed around those numbers.

If changing sites to accommodate caps fleet than yes please do them and thank you for actually changing incursions.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

BlitZ Kotare
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#83 - 2016-04-07 01:29:27 UTC
I haven't read most of the other responses in this thread, I'm mostly responding directly to the OP.

I feel like regular capitals might be OK in some of the larger existing lowsec and nullsec incursion sites, Assaults, maybe Vanguards and the Mothership itself. An easy way to allow this would be simply modifying the existing acceleration gates to permit their entry. However the new Supercarriers and Titans are probably overpowered in a PvE context that is not explicitly designed with them in mind.

If you're willing to commit to a full rebalance of existing Incursion content then sure, redesign the larger sites (or even create a new XL site) with capitals and supers in mind and allow them in too. Maybe just make the 'capitals allowed' sites ungated so that everyone can just warp into them directly.

Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#84 - 2016-04-07 03:55:07 UTC
I don't see why there couldn't be a test run for a few months to see what the communities do to see if it would be an actual issue.

Without breaking open EFT to see what's what specifically right now, my initial feeling is the only threat a Triaged FAX would face, would be the Outunis. But really the Outunis that spawn in assaults are not an issue because they spawn far enough away from the beacon that they can be killed before they get into neut range by a competent fleet. The same is true for TPPH and NRF. This leaves TCRCs to be the only threat where the Outunis spawn close enough to apply neut pressure. But this can be avoided by preloading the TCRC on purpose, and sending in your anchor to secure the Outuni agro before the FAXes get sent in.

From there, the PVP threat I would see is catching someone that took a gate late, or wasn't aligned quite right so they had to realign down the gate and getting pointed and dropped on by a T3 covert cyno fleet.

Also the logistics for groups that wanted to farm lowsec incursions with moving their capitals around, when you factor in jump fatigue, largely out scales subcap logistics. Even if you were not lighting cynos, you are forced to stick to lowsec routes. Groups would probably want half a dozen capitals seeded around so they wouldn't have to move their capitals to the opposite side of New Eden to run on a regular basis.

So to sum it all up, until I take a detailed and hard look at this, I'm not seeing a large issue with doing a test run for a few months just to see what happens because I'm not seeing this becoming a normal thing people do.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#85 - 2016-04-07 04:47:37 UTC
BlitZ Kotare wrote:
Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself.


There needs to be much, much more than there is. There are almost no sites in k-space where you cannot get safe before the would be hunter has gotten on grid with you. 99% of ratter deaths are due to them not paying attention, maybe 1% is due the skill of the hunter, but the predominant, deciding factor is was the ratter paying any attention. The fact that there is no commitment to any of the sites makes it sorta lame.

The only time ive seen people fight in K-Space over pve, is DED sites, as you can rob someone of the rewards, and you do have to defend it to earn the rewards. Anoms and Incursions just have an unlimited number of sites, so the best strategy is still total avoidance and total safety.

That should not be the case in a game about risk and reward.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Anthar Thebess
#86 - 2016-04-07 12:08:05 UTC
This is why i like Sansha npc missions.
LP are worthless (unless running broken burner sites), currently all isk is in the tags.
You need to guard your MTU, or hunt for someone MTU to get True reward.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#87 - 2016-04-07 12:39:18 UTC
BlitZ Kotare wrote:

Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site.

If there is no tackle, there is no risk.
Incursions don't put out anywhere near the kind of DPS needed to threaten to kill caps in a matter of seconds, meaning even if you stuff up you have more than enough buffer to handle it all before you warp the one ship out.

My short & sweet opinion, unless the sites are rebalanced for capital EHP & DPS, then no.
And rebalancing the sites then makes them unrunnable without capitals.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2016-04-07 15:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
BlitZ Kotare wrote:

Personally I don't feel that there needs to be excessive pve tackle in pve sites, it's up to the aggressor to tackle their prey and shouldn't be made too easy by the game itself. As much as I'm all for shooting pve ships in space, it's just lazy thinking on the part of hunting parties that the game "owes" them content and so all ratting ships should be tackled whenever they're in a site.

If there is no tackle, there is no risk.
Incursions don't put out anywhere near the kind of DPS needed to threaten to kill caps in a matter of seconds, meaning even if you stuff up you have more than enough buffer to handle it all before you warp the one ship out.

My short & sweet opinion, unless the sites are rebalanced for capital EHP & DPS, then no.
And rebalancing the sites then makes them unrunnable without capitals.


There is almost 0 risk to any non-cruiser in incursions. If you look at how most people fit incursion ships, it's literally as paper-tanked as you can get, while still having enough resists that logi can rep you.

VGs tend to use a 1-3 slot tank (Yes, some groups just use a rig for their tank, they are very good)
HQs tend to use a 4-5 slot tank. (Rig, DC, 2 adaptive invuls)

And even with these setups, most groups have close to 0 losses. Most often you'll lose a logi every couple hours to every couple days. Your biggest problem is logi not applying reps to people fast enough and/or people not broadcasting on time, and you'll still have that problem.

My earlier posts cover how it won't be totally overpowered for DPS, since you'll have to travel in these sites. Caps can replace some of the ships currently used, and may be faster, but the travel time keeps enough bottlenecks in place that you won't see sites normally done in 15 minutes done in 2. What will likely happen is something what you can do in hisec with 40 people in 15 minutes, can be done in low/null by 30 people in 15 minutes, or 60 people in 12 minutes. But it won't be stupidly OP.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#89 - 2016-04-07 20:18:20 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
There is almost 0 risk to any non-cruiser in incursions.


To me, this is more a function of the lack of player-player interaction in incursions, and that player-rat interactions can be so gamed and streamlined once you have done the particular site 100 times. There is no variation, no challenges, no anything really once you have optimized your fits and tactics. I've run in your incursion group before, and I never even for a moment felt my ship was at risk from other players; yeah you know how to make this happen, yet the fact that it is possible is anathema to a game like this.

Incursions will remain absurdly safe and some of the highest reward/lowest risk PvE in the game until players are allowed to meaningfully interfere in them. Capitals aren't the answer, this will just enable a few people to overexploit their use, and then raise the bar to run incursions. Arguably the only good thing incursions bring to the table is a way for people to make ISK in highsec to recover a loss in other areas, but at the same time this safe, guaranteed income poisons the rest of the content ecosystem in the game.

Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#90 - 2016-04-07 21:12:30 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players.


I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship.

The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#91 - 2016-04-07 21:27:21 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players.


I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship.

The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic.



I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#92 - 2016-04-07 22:05:20 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:

I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.


Ever since CCP buffed the fleet size for low/null there has been a basically full time Low Sec incursion fleet taking advantage of the over 200% payout for the fleet relative to Highsec. There is no reason the various Null groups couldn't also be doing the same when incursions land in their area of space. Most of them just chose not to.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#93 - 2016-04-07 23:09:54 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:

I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.


Ever since CCP buffed the fleet size for low/null there has been a basically full time Low Sec incursion fleet taking advantage of the over 200% payout for the fleet relative to Highsec. There is no reason the various Null groups couldn't also be doing the same when incursions land in their area of space. Most of them just chose not to.


Incursions act much differently in null due to cynojamming actually having a negative effect. If you are just chasing Sansha around low, you don't live there, the cyno jamming effect helps you more than anything, whereas actually trying to live in space that is cyno jammed is problematic. Last incursion I did in sov-null was literally over in 12 hours from start to finish - first opportunity to end it is usually taken. It is ironic that, for many reasons, in sov null incursions are the least accessible and the least utilized, as far as I know, whereas the logistic and practicality of running them in high and low make those many times more attractive.

Which again, is more than tangential to the issue at hand. You want to make running them in deep null interesting and lucrative, but one would have to be exceptionally careful not to hand over the tools to overexploit them with caps, without also making it practical and attractive for antagonists to play the other side of the game.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#94 - 2016-04-08 02:00:39 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Everything in the game needs risk, and the majority of that risk should come from players.


I do agree that's a problem with incursions, across the board, all locations, not just hisec or nullsec. I just think we should be able to risk another type of ship.

The fact that incursions are far too risk free with their high reward is a whole different question. I've got suggestions for that, but I'm trying to stay on-topic.



I think it's entirely relevant here. It's an organic system - nothing is truly 100% independent. It's not what this change will do by itself, it's what this change will do to make incursions more EvE like overall. Like, the only reason I am even a little for this proposed change is because it will (or could) shift the incursion emphasis a little more towards null and low, whereas now its dominated by highsec.



Well you could always have a Faction Warfare style signup to join Sansha and allow people who do to freely attack anyone running the sites, even in HiSec. Adds the risk back in.
Kaphrah
Thats my BOI
#95 - 2016-04-08 03:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaphrah
bahahahaha 10/10 would buy nyxes for that. owait aeons the new **** nvm.

rabbit srsly if u run these sites. TPPH is the only annoying thing here. Travel in NRF or TCRC to be in optimal... with carriers? Fighters, I choose YOU!

Dreads wont hit anything in NRFs anyway (okok tcrc but change ship for each site?)
also dont forget supers losing ewar immunity. sit still, get webbed to warp, party hard.
as much as I'd love to gloriously fly a nyx into new tcrc world record times (it goes below 7.5 btw), I'd rather have them design new sites for capitals, if allowing them at all. capitals in existing sites would seriously be OP, just think of tcrc's and... 3 supers can already do the site faster (inb4 incursion nano nyx ~). Also, keep supers cap full all the time (those 2 hardeners maybe...) and they can just jump off if anything goes spooky.

Plaid Rabbit wrote:
HQs tend to use a 4-5 slot tank. (Rig, DC, 2 adaptive invuls)


therm Rig, DC, 1 Invul, em amplifier, y u go full tvp?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#96 - 2016-04-08 05:54:47 UTC
Fozzy. I'd Love to start running Titan boosts for incursion fleets in hisec. Just allow caps and supers into hisec and delete cynos. for serious. Me would love you long time.

But erm.... Without spider tanking non-triage carriers? Capital Incursions in lowsec & null only? You expect peeps to go and enjoy this with those crappy FAX hulls as much as they farm hisec sites? lolz Fozzy, you funny.

But I'm going to make a few points about this:

1) Incursion communities tend to favor Turret systems (instant high levels of dps) over missile / drone platform ships (The exceptions being sentry drones on myrms / domies). The missiles don't apply damage well enough to those fast moving rats, in addition to the range those rats can start engaging at compared to the low damage longer range missiles we get in eve presently. In this respect, the only capital ships that would be able to fill a role would be the Phoenix (or even the Leviathan), provided there is webbing support (rapiers, huggins, lokis, bhalgorns, ashimus Vigilances or Vindis) in the fleet assisting with the webbing actions to slow down rats enough (and target paint them enough) for the capital missiles to be of use.

Sentry drones are much more useful (fantastic in large numbers), but with most drone bay sizes being what they are, flying anything except myrms and battleships (read domis / rattlesnakes) that can field 3 or more, the dps loss (esp for small fleets) isn't worth the effort (and time) of putting up with the hassle of running the sites. Now if we could still have pre-citadel carriers with sentry drones? Yea sure... no problem.

2) Dreadnoughts.
With the old anti-structure / anti-capital guns, these will be useless (both in siege and out of siege) to hit frigate sized rats that aren't webbed or TPd et mass due in large part to the way guns work in eve (projectile size / target size / tracking / sig radius / transversals / av et al). The new HAW weapons will most likely work a whole lot better against sansha rats, but again, your limiting the engagement range to 25-45km and giving caps insane locking times because of low scan res values (the whole "why should a capital ship target stuff as fast as a frigate / cruiser / BS" argument that forms the basis of rifters online).

More over, your forcing the dreads to go into siege to use HAWs.... which implies no remote repairs (in incursion sites... have you ever run any of these yourselves? no logi when you need reps = deadmeat) and those rats will chew through capital EHP like there's no day after the day after tomorrow. So in my opinion, unless there is a fundamental shift in the way siege works (for example, by allowing remote repairs from FAXs in triage / siege - by adding a -ewar resistance value so to speak to a ship in siege and then gimping the reps received from FAX's in triage to say 50% effectiveness of what they get if not in siege) Dreads wont see allot of action in incursion sites. Sure - people use them to farm sleepers in wormholes and claim they farm 3 bil isk an hour. Sleepers are not sansha rats. a single dread with a local repper will be able to tank sleepers.... I'd love to see that dread last against sansha in a whole incursion site with its local tank and no support. Esp when the neuts start coming in and you run out of cap charges for your shiny new capital ASB / ARR.

So again (given the points above), I'd expect to see the phoenix used (if any dreads get usage at all).

3) Carriers / Super carriers.
With the new drones being what they are, I'd expect superiority fighters to do 90% of the work in incursion sites. But those drones being as weak and feeble as they are, and not having the ability to "assign them" or to "set their default behavior such as passive / aggressive etc), running incursion sites with the new fighter mechanism will be a painfull process. And why risk a super carrier at such an increased cost when a normal carrier can do the same job for a fraction of the price and still make you want to slash your wrists and goto hisec to farm in sub caps.

More over, no more spider tanking non triage carriers. Death sentence for whoever needs to play logi (FAX) if they get room agro (hint, sansha's like primarying logi ships that run more than 3 reps).

What I do see working is carriers supported by conventional incursion fleets and sub capital logi (that surprisingly, is good game design to allow fast moving non triage logi to spider tank based on the foundation (not ceiling) of limited hit-points.... /rant) sitting hundreds of kms off the entry points of sites, sniping rat waves with fighters and LR turrets.

Super carrier super weapons will mean next to nothing in the existing incursion sites.

4) Titans:
The new hack and slash / straight line & AoE doomsdays will most likely be a focus point for these sites. If those doomsdays take out rats in their path, then:
1) 3-4 titans will clear VG sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday.
2) 3-9 titans will clear AS sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday.
3) 3-12 titans will clear HQ sites in about as long as it takes each titan to take the gate into the site and set off a doomsday, then slowboat to the next accel gate and the subsequent rooms. /rinse & repeat.

If the DDs dont work, then we'll see tracking titans of both shield and armor varieties, using HAWs to clear rooms. Given the crappyness of FAX's that can't rep each other in triage (due to crap capital / super capital game design imo), I'd expect sub capital logi wings to escort these titans. This will definitely attract pvp attention et mass... so again, it will be less incursion farming, more pew pew / more risk / more people not bothering unless the entire constellation is locked down tighter than goonswarms hold on the northern portion of eve (derp).

5) FAXes.
Just allow them to...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#97 - 2016-04-08 06:04:06 UTC
Part 2:

5) FAXes
Just allow them to remote rep other faxes in triage, and other caps in siege... then it might mean something.

Otherwise, lets talk about preventing remote assistance between sub capital logistics to make eve "truly interesting and fun"

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#98 - 2016-04-08 13:28:12 UTC
i think people are forgetting the fact that capitals are incredibly slow when it comes to warp times so i have a feeling in most cases it would just be way more effective ISK per hour wise to just do it in battleships/T3's regardless of the amount of DPS and EHP they have.
Huffy Dragon
Another Corp..
#99 - 2016-04-08 14:19:11 UTC
While I am amazed by thinking about all the site strategies you can come up with by using HAW Dreads, I am also afraid about the risk vs reward equation.

For people not being the local superpower, using a capital incursion fleet is just straight suicide. For people that are the local superpower, its probably printing isk with almost no risk.

Of course incursions spawn randomly, so no one gets to permagrind them. But then you have empires like the old CFC space, which basically guaranteed you having an incursion somewhere in your space all the time.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#100 - 2016-04-08 14:29:04 UTC
Huffy Dragon wrote:
While I am amazed by thinking about all the site strategies you can come up with by using HAW Dreads, I am also afraid about the risk vs reward equation.

For people not being the local superpower, using a capital incursion fleet is just straight suicide. For people that are the local superpower, its probably printing isk with almost no risk.

Of course incursions spawn randomly, so no one gets to permagrind them. But then you have empires like the old CFC space, which basically guaranteed you having an incursion somewhere in your space all the time.


Even when the CFC owned the entire north and western side of the map, we only had a spawn about 1 out of every 3 weeks. Post phoebe, when we gave up the Cloud Ring and down, it took it to one in every 4 weeks on average. We'd have little spurts of 2-3 back to back, then go 3 months without one.