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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#201 - 2015-08-14 00:28:29 UTC
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.

Phoebe is successful.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#202 - 2015-08-14 00:31:44 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I love jump fatigue.

It adds more strategy and stops alliances jumping on every little gang.


Do you join these little gangs, or are you just romanticizing their assumed existence? Unless someone (aka CCP or the guy who runs zkb) can roll out some statistics on 'little' fleet-on-fleet encounters and prove with data how they've gone up since Phoebe, then content has gone down, not up.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#203 - 2015-08-14 00:35:35 UTC
Ignore the goon sh1tposting and everything will be normal again.
vikari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#204 - 2015-08-14 00:48:18 UTC
You're asking for feedback, so I'll voice issues I have. I will not give idea's for solutions because, as a general player I am definitely not qualified to understand the full dynamics of any change you make, their ease of implementation or their full effects of them.

Issues:


Jump Fatigue: It reduced combat opportunities. Not just the largest server crushing fights, but also the chance for small fights. Maybe that was the idea. I do know in a world where we want immediate entertainment, and can receive it, Eve has taken a step back in this arena. We have enjoyed a game where our fun can be readily available within 30 minutes or less. We are very hard press to find that entertainment now. If we make an hour long or longer trip the fun may never be available, and that leave us with two or more hours of our gaming time wasted. Given Eve's demographics, most of the player base is mid aged adults with limited time after they come home from work. War was a goal oriented event, with big battles readily available content. Getting all of those again would be extremely unlikely in the current Sov system. Maybe we have more space then we need? There is no region or even constellation in nullsec that will have constant fighting over its Sov, and deployments are not a viable option for Sov holding alliances. I'm reminded of WoW, and the town Halaa. The town was in constant flux because there was reason to want to take it, if even for a little while. I'm sure many of the Dev's would understand what I mean by this. Eve lacks that sort of incentive to push constantly conflict over Sov.

Entosis Link: This has led to a system that in its current form lack and emotional reward for success. In the past defending or attacking led to risk. Not just for the alliance but for the individual. My ship could be lost, and in some cases the cost could be very substantial. Alliance has fielded fleets they could never afford to lose, and it was those risks that were emotionally exciting. I could lose everything, or take it from someone else. The feeling of crushing them was amazing. Now Sov is a system that does not put any individuals at real risk of loss. "Troll Ceptors" seem to run the majority of Sov combat, but ultimately the system doesn't push any alliance towards risking significant amounts of isk. There is no need to justify the loss of billions of isk, and maybe that helps the smaller group, but it takes a significant reward away from us that motivated fights. Even if the “Troll Ceptors” are resolved, the system in its current incarnation doesn’t justify the use of capital fleets of any size, or the use of supers. The escalation of ships is not as powerful as using the Sov system to simply exhaust the owners of it, through constant harassment. The Sov system supports risk aversion.

Alliance Level Income: Alliances were handed a Sov system that was ment to stress them to the point of releasing large swaths of space that was unused. It did not replace the income source related to holding large swaths of space. Not just renters, but also moons. CCP buffed space to allow for greater occupancy, but there is no way for an alliance to pull in a portion of that income. If the alliance had something as simple as a tax, it might be effective, but ultimately the lack of a system that allows for alliances to bring individual income up to the alliance level pushing alliances to fight the very Sov mechanics that CCP has introduced. I believe this has resulted in people pushing themselves to exhaustion, and ultimately walking away in favor of some much needed rest.

Removal of Types Game Play: Many of your old vets have felt a disconnect from CCP. They are highly skilled players that have come to enjoy a style of game play that you have removed. There are multiple styles I'm referencing. Two of which that come to mind are Deployments and Capital Fleets. Deployments were heavily nerfed with Jump Fatigue, and this lead to groups like PL having significantly more work to accomplish their style of game play. Second style is a capital centric style. Many players are almost purely capital based, with a few being dedicated to supers and titans. These ships ships no longer have a purpose. I know CCP want to take a serious look at these ships and give them some options for game play. However before options were designed to allow them to continue their use, they were given a lack of any use. This basically takes a number of peoples large investments, and makes them worthless for the current time. Many of these people are leadership/enablers for the larger populous and that leads to greater effect over all as these people log in less often or express their unhappiness about the situation. Though it may be a small group of players, their interest in this game has wide reaching effects.
Artemis Dalvik
Arxersize Industries
#205 - 2015-08-14 03:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Artemis Dalvik
CCP Larrikin wrote:
h4kun4 wrote:
Some suggestions:
Examples for difficulty might be that you cant move as far and you can't carry that much fuel. 5 Light Years range is a joke, combine that with a fuel bay that has enough fuel for lets say 10-15 light years and you can think how difficult it would be to move a 500 man cap fleet around the galaxy.
You would need to have fuel caches everywhere or have Jump Freighters travel with you. So, risk vs. reward, also preparation vs. reward.


Wouldn't this just mandate JF's for move ops without having any real effect on power projection?
Arguably, having to cynos in place = preparation, and chains of cynos across the galaxy allowing rapid power projection was one of the reasons jump fatigue was introduced in the first place?

Something like this could be potential used in combination with other effects (which your suggestion goes into more depth with).



The core issue, as I understand it, is that the tool used to reel in power projection did so by increasing time spent. I would not consider myself a game designer, but I know that it is dangerous to influence players via tedium.

So my question is, why does power projection need to be addressed in a way that severely limits the ability of caps to move? The largest complaints I have heard for Phoebe have been logistically moving capitals and nothing to do with combat. Im imagining a system that reduces combat efficiency of capitals per jump in an exponential manner. Surely there are tools you can use to give capitals range while still preventing them from traveling long distances for fights. If someone wants to move his carrier halfway across the galaxy in an evening I say let him, but he shouldnt be expected to be able to fight once he gets to his destination.

Eve demands a lot from players time. This is not something that should be taken for granted during design. If I wanted to play CS or league of legends I can load it up and get a game in 5 minutes to play for the next 40-60m. There are many many things I can do in eve for an hour and walk away with zero content, whether its looking for fights, hunting miners, running sites, forming a fleet, etc. There is no guarantee.

I would love to know that a dev has read this and what their thoughts are on a non-movement based approach to power projection. I know Im not the first to suggest this but I have yet to hear an acknowledgement or response.
Tuzy Naranek
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#206 - 2015-08-14 04:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Tuzy Naranek
Phoebe and Aegis are killing this game. Jump fatigue needs to be removed entirely. Nullsec is stagnant due to stubburn small-gang pvp loving game designers trying to force the majority of nullsec players to play the game the way these developers like to play the game instead of sticking true to the sandbox nature of Eve Online. People played this game over other MMOs because this was the only game out there that had a single server everyone could play on together. By restricting movement in such a player hostile manner, you're actively encouraging people to NOT play your game. If I wanted to only fight or play with the people in nullsec that lived next to me, I would go play many of the other small-scale games that exist.

Why cannot you step back and realize this? Get your heads out of the sand and look as how your changes have decimated the daily average logged i players over time.


You are killing this game.
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#207 - 2015-08-14 04:26:21 UTC
How is it that the most obvious answer to fixing this whole problem has been missed....

Keep fatigue the way it is. Continue to let cap ships use gates....

INTRODUCE GATES that go farther than one solar system. Say region to region or whatever.

1) This keeps choke points and the "terrain" of EVE.

2) Helps players not want to gouge their eyes out moving stuff. I have suggested this before even for HI-SEC. Why not have region to region gates in certain systems. Gankers will love the choke points. You have options to go the "long way" still. It helps shorten the workload on players so they can spend more time PLAYING but still carries risk vs reward.

3) These could be one-way cannon shots aimed at a constellation instead of solar system as an option instead too. Again distance and occurrence level of said "new gates" would be up to discussion.

It's not rocket science....this way we don't have to destroy the fabric of EVE and get into DEV / player fist fights.

my two cents...

Flame on!
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
#208 - 2015-08-14 06:01:43 UTC
Stay strong CCP, the majority of the angry noisy feedback is short sided junk based on an obsolete entrenched mindset. Your vision is good, your goals are correct, do not go back, continue pushing forward and just bring on the system/constellation fortification ability and work on features that encourage and allow player density within said systems/constellations.
Blavish
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#209 - 2015-08-14 06:18:36 UTC
CAPS TIME wrote:
After all the drama and personal attacks surrounding the roundtable I feel ashamed of being part of this community.



Yep, pretty much all i have to say as well.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#210 - 2015-08-14 06:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


[1]Altering base jump ranges
i) Keep Titans at 2.5 LY.
ii) Up Super Carriers to 3 LY.
iii) Give Dreadnaughts and Carriers 3.5 LY, in line with the Rorq.

[2]Altering jump fatigue curves
i) a fatigue timer for a 2.5 LY jump in a Titan should be 25 mins in my opinion (The ship caps up forever after a jump so it isn't going anywhere soon anyway)
ii) a fatigue timer for a 3 LY jump in a super carrier should be 30 mins.
iii) a fatigue timer for a 3.5 LY jump should be 35 mins.
Basically 10 mins of fatigue generated per light year jumped

[3]Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
I'd prefer you just delete jump fatigue.... Speaking of moving fatigue, when are stargates going to give sub cap gangs some fatigue? You know, local content, slow down eve, more fights, something something, stop power projection stuff. / rant

[4]Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
If this is going to be a spool up method of jumping capitals that allows me to travel across the map when the countdown / spoolup timer hits 0, with a long cooldown after and the ability to move without cynos... then hell yea. Its about time.

If not, i demandz details......

[5]Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
Sure, but only if you can implement an occupied capital system for low-sec and NPC null alliances as well so that all capital ships can enjoy this feature....

[6]Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
Apply the same nerf of jump fatigue timers to all ships using star gates and wormholes to travel. If they argue against it it means your doing it right! Slow down eve, more fights, less t3 / cruiser blobs traveling 10 jumps in 10 mins amirite?

[7]Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
This will hamper (erm I mean kill) capital PvP. Completely. So no. Bad CCP. BAD!

[8]Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
Rly? A capital ship has to wait 24 hours when a tactical destroyer does it in seconds? I think you need to go smoke some more socks and rethink this one. 5-10 minutes or so is more like it. This puts it in line with most of the other cycle times of capabilities or modules of cap ships in eve, like triage, siege, doomsdays etc.

[9]Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
Yes to all 3. Ships purely fitted like this will be the KM equivalent of suspect flagged billion isk sub caps fitted with warp stabs if caught on a stargate in hi-sec.

[10]What does local-content mean to you?
Means I dont have to travel far or long or wait down fatigue timers to get into PvP or PvE... It also means my capital ships or supers dont have to get nerfed for others to enjoy the game in their smaller ships in their immediate area




Also - Allow Caps and Supers into hi-sec via gates. You can keep the no cyno in hi-sec rule intact.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#211 - 2015-08-14 07:07:49 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.

Phoebe is successful.


A simplification to the point of dishonesty. When they are being lost in local conflicts, I would tend to agree with you. The fact that so many are dying to being ganked while moving illustrates how stagnant and boring capital hyper-localization makes the game - capitals are so immobile that the local use of them is almost never challenged, and almost never can be in practicality. You want people to actually get involved in fights over things, not just ganks where they are not physically capable of defending themselves. No one is asking for another Asakai every time someone gets tackled, but he present state of affairs is bad.

A nuanced dissection of those metrics might be revealing, but painting with a brush that wide really just detracts from what could be productive conversation.

The people who hate sov-residents no matter what add nothing the conversation.
The people who hate capitals no matter what add nothing to the conversation.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Irya Boone
The Scope
#212 - 2015-08-14 08:01:08 UTC
everything is fine with phoebe except

-should add drive fatigue too.
-Should add more fatique to Blops.
-Should reduce the mass a cyno let come through etc etc

I love sov , i lov people in it , i love caps and supers , i just don't love when bunch of retards lit cyno and come at 200 on a cruiser.

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2015-08-14 08:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.

Phoebe is successful.


A simplification to the point of dishonesty. When they are being lost in local conflicts, I would tend to agree with you. The fact that so many are dying to being ganked while moving illustrates how stagnant and boring capital hyper-localization makes the game - capitals are so immobile that the local use of them is almost never challenged, and almost never can be in practicality. You want people to actually get involved in fights over things, not just ganks where they are not physically capable of defending themselves. No one is asking for another Asakai every time someone gets tackled, but he present state of affairs is bad.

A nuanced dissection of those metrics might be revealing, but painting with a brush that wide really just detracts from what could be productive conversation.

The people who hate sov-residents no matter what add nothing the conversation.
The people who hate capitals no matter what add nothing to the conversation.


I want to like this twice.

Many areas of space it is a case of "meet the old boss, same as the new boss". That being said, I do not know how to balance a happy medium.
Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#214 - 2015-08-14 09:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Gas stations in spaaaaace!

Sovereignty holders should be able to erect a structure in a system they control that reduces jump fatigue over time, for all alliance members within range.

Details

* Only one of these structures allowed per Alliance
* Structure is destructible
* Players are vulnerable while at the structure
* Can't be activated while system is cyno jammed

People without sov will just have to deal with the current fatigue or take sov if they wish to get the benefit.

Covert cyno/portaling should be exempt from the fatigue mechanic.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#215 - 2015-08-14 10:24:56 UTC
Alyxportur wrote:

Please remove all the jump fatigue mechanics. All of them.

Hmmm Now where have I heard something like this before?

Oh right now I remember, I said something similar with the Hyperion changes, asking CCP to remove all of the new WH jump mechanics. It didn't work, CCP ignored us. Oh how I remember the dismissive 'learn 2 adapt' remarks from nullsec too. I can go find the post where I said your time will come.

That said, as much fun as this little told you so is I think that the capitol idea regarding jump fatigue might work if implemented correctly. My recommendation would be to keep it as simple as possible. The more complicated you try and make it the easier it is to abuse and find loopholes. If you want nullsec communities to fight more locally then it can work for that, just make it so that the whole capitol thing is not something that can be changed or moved at a whim, for both pilots and corps/alliances. And yes, it should be hard to assault and take a well entrenched enemy that is basing out of their capitol. And if the guys complain about no local content then maybe setting every corp within 5 regions to blue is the problem. They need to adopt a wormholer mentality. You can fight and gank people and still be friends with them. It's only when you try to evict them that it becomes personal (and even then not always).

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3

Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#216 - 2015-08-14 10:41:24 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Gas stations in spaaaaace!

Sovereignty holders should be able to erect a structure in a system they control that reduces jump fatigue over time, for all alliance members within range.

Details

* Only one of these structures allowed per Alliance
* Structure is destructible
* Players are vulnerable while at the structure
* Can't be activated while system is cyno jammed

People without sov will just have to deal with the current fatigue or take sov if they wish to get the benefit.

Covert cyno/portaling should be exempt from the fatigue mechanic.



Any and all of the proposed mechanics that either require sov or are sov-exclusive are bad design choices. Yes, sov needs more benefits, but this is not the place to do it.

A)They increase the difficulty of new entities getting into the sov game, making invading even harder for the attacker as the defender has home field and mobility, and thus favors current sov holders immensely. It is almost just as bad as the old system, where you needed to get supercaps to take sov, but you needed sov to make supercaps, thus New Eden is trapped in stasis forevermore. You need mobility just as badly if you were to attack with caps as you would on defense. Yes defenders should have some advantage, but when/if caps are given more mobility, one should think, how would I ever get caps where I need them, as much as, how can I use caps to defend my space? The side with more mobile caps will almost always be at a hilariously large advantage, either in running away or out maneuvering any attackers. Basically, attackers need help too, as the current mechanics all but stop any chance of doing a capital deployment or campaign. Being able to use them in your home regions is important, yes, but having an innate mobility bonus when the logistics on the attacker side already are hard, just gives the defenders another advantage they don't need. When it is practical to attack with capitals, as well as defend, we will know things are in a good state; fixes that have sov as a prerequisite aren't really all that set up to help people on the offense.

B)There's an entire rest of the game out there. Sov is not everything. Important yes, but not the only game in town. WH people use caps, Lowsec people use caps, and NPC nullsec people, get this, use caps. If anything, players from those groups use them far more aggressively and with greater bravado than the blocs. Any fix should work for Sov focused players as well as others players equally well. People may not like all the playstyles out there, nor are they for everyone, but you should at least respect their place in the game. Capitals are not just a sov nullsec thing, they require a solution that will work for everyone.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

bear mcgreedy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#217 - 2015-08-14 11:09:44 UTC
To fix capitals it's easy you make it so complicated remove fatigue keep the reactivation timer simple less reactivation for sub caps using jump bridges and titan bridges increase the range would be nice but take fatigue away.....
bear mcgreedy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#218 - 2015-08-14 11:18:25 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
everything is fine with phoebe except

-should add drive fatigue too.
-Should add more fatique to Blops.
-Should reduce the mass a cyno let come through etc etc

I love sov , i lov people in it , i love caps and supers , i just don't love when bunch of retards lit cyno and come at 200 on a cruiser.



This is the problem and your argument is invalid... The reason why 200 man gangs are dropping on your cruiser is they are bored and b due to the current mechanics 0.0 has become stagnant if you want the good solo fights fatigue isn't it
Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
Muffins of Mayhem
#219 - 2015-08-14 11:20:54 UTC
Jump fatigue stopped Pandemic Legion 3rd partying (ruining) every single decent sized fight anywhere in New Eden.

Therefore it's a success in my book.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Rek Seven
Galactic Deep Space Industries
Warped Intentions
#220 - 2015-08-14 11:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Gas stations in spaaaaace!

Sovereignty holders should be able to erect a structure in a system they control that reduces jump fatigue over time, for all alliance members within range.

Details

* Only one of these structures allowed per Alliance
* Structure is destructible
* Players are vulnerable while at the structure
* Can't be activated while system is cyno jammed

People without sov will just have to deal with the current fatigue or take sov if they wish to get the benefit.

Covert cyno/portaling should be exempt from the fatigue mechanic.



Any and all of the proposed mechanics that either require sov or are sov-exclusive are bad design choices. Yes, sov needs more benefits, but this is not the place to do it.

A)They increase the difficulty of new entities getting into the sov game, making invading even harder for the attacker as the defender has home field and mobility, and thus favors current sov holders immensely...

B)There's an entire rest of the game out there. Sov is not everything. Important yes, but not the only game in town. WH people use caps, Lowsec people use caps, and NPC nullsec people, get this, use caps...


My aim was to give people back the ability to do multiply jumps per night in search of a fight, as apposed to logging of because fatigue stops you from playing.

A) Yeah sure it gives the sov holder a mobility advantage in that they can do more jumps but they still can't jump any further than everyone else. Plus, to reap these benefits, they need to make themselves vulnerable to attack.

The aggressor would plan their attack and siege specific systems, so they shouldn't need to jump around as much. If they want to level the playing filed, they can destroy the structure I proposing.

B) I didn't consider wormholes... I agree wormholes should have access to the 'gas station' structure because their power projection is limited by wormhole mass mechanics... As for the low sec - they already don't have to worry about interdiction bubble so, meh.

That's my opinion anyway...

Why can't the attackers just use a combination of wormholes, gates and cynos to get where they need to be? If you are looking for a return to the days where you could jump across the map in one night, I don't think that is going to happen.