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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2015-08-12 19:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
Jayne Fillon
#2 - 2015-08-12 19:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jayne Fillon
First!

To answer your questions:

  1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
  2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
  3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
  4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
  5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
  6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
  7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
  8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


Other suggestions:

  • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
  • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
  • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
  • More suggestions as I think of them....

Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI.
Megarom
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#3 - 2015-08-12 19:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Megarom
TLDR; Get rid of the exponential fatigue build up.

The decay speed already limits the sustained speed to 0.1 LY/minute. That is enough.

I think the system should consist of:
1. Additive fatigue build up 1/LY jumped.
2. Fatigue decay 0.1/minute
3. If fatigue is over certain limit, for example 10 you can't jump.

This is the simplest model I've come up with that limits sustained travel speed while allowing burst movements.
The current maths around jump cooldown and fatigue are overly complicated and lack meaningful ways to tweak it.

Other variant with lot's of numbers and critque of current model can be found in this post but it's relevant here to illustrate the tweakability of additive fatigue based model and the clear benefit of fatigue having crete meaning as the sum of distance traveled.

Assuming that the cooldown numbers for the first 2 jumps in the current system are carefully crafted taking into account things I can't you could get similar numbers by the following variant:

3. Jump cooldown is 6^(fatigue/5) minutes

In general the cooldown as a function of fatigue can be easily tweaked to fit what ever game design goal the devs happen to have.

I've written everything else I have to say on the earlier 2 threads [Search results here]
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#4 - 2015-08-12 19:32:32 UTC
Lots of feedback lots of interest and participation. Thanks to the players and Devs taking the time.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Baki Yuku
Doomheim
#5 - 2015-08-12 19:34:01 UTC
I think the idea behind phoebe was sound but the implimiation was just an example of overdoing it. A nerf is fine even a double one but the tripleing down CCP did was just too much.

Remove Fatigue. Change the reactisivion timer increase range of all capitals to 7,85ly (that is the bare minimum you need to access regions like stain).

Done

As for the reactivision timer I'd say between 5 to 10 minutes. That way you're not negativly impacting lowsec nerds or dudes across the galaxy but making moving somewhat "okay".
Teebeutel
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-08-12 19:36:47 UTC
As to the issue brought up with encouraging local production by reducing jump freighter jump range, wouldn't an easier and far more palatable way to encourage production be to increase their jump fuel consumption drastically to make it far easier to turn a profit from producing when competing against people importing from Jita?
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-08-12 19:38:03 UTC
Thank you to CSM and CCP for arranging this. Was sadly a little hostile, but hopefully we can continue this soon.

I've learned a lot of interesting things, and the post-soundboard discussion was (and is) pretty good.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-08-12 19:38:21 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves

Either of those two would make it significantly less unpleasant to go places.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based

That's just going to be abused.

Ranges and/or a less painful fatigue curve seem the most reasonable. Probably the easiest to do and balance as well.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-08-12 19:46:01 UTC
The problem with fatigue right now is actually mostly one of perception. Folks playing are overwhelmingly those who had been playing before fatigue was introduced. As such, their memories of a fatigue-free, unlimited-travel-with-no-consequences Eve taints their ability to see the good of fatigue.

So-called "suitcase carriers" are probably the biggest example of fatigue being a Good Thing -- suitcase carriers allowed for risk-free movement of subcaps across the whole of eve at a whim (and a few cyno alts.) Fatigue pretty much killed that, and this is a good thing -- suitcase carriers were an unmitigated cancer that needed to be castrated.

I urge CCP to take a very light hand in the adjustments of fatigue. Despite its oppressive nature, it's doing worlds of good for lowsec and nullsec in keeping large powers (such as my own) out of conflicts in whose games they have no skin.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#10 - 2015-08-12 19:46:56 UTC
My suggestion: remove jump fatigue entirely and/or reverse jump range changes entirely, preferably both. From the forums and the roundtable today this has clearly not been a popular change. Neither of the changes were particularly popular or fun on their own, but both of them together is far too oppressive, and at leaset one aspect of the change should be reversed.

Power projection absolutely should be limited but this is most certainly not the way to do it.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Miera Sertan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2015-08-12 19:49:23 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
    • Would you mind expanding on this? Are you suggesting a time-based inactivity of a jumping capital? In other words an optional, but once a day, 10, 20 minute, etc additional traffic control wait time in order to safely reach the system in jump range (or maybe further?) without incurring a fatigue buildup?
    Equto
    Imperium Technologies
    Sigma Grindset
    #12 - 2015-08-12 19:49:46 UTC
    Jayne Fillon wrote:
    First!

    To answer your questions:

    1. Jump ranges are fine, they could be better, but they're okay. Keep capital/supercapital range equal.
    2. Jump fatigue needs to be capped at 120 hours so that Fatigue is ALWAYS gone by the next weekend
    3. Fatigue should remain character based, or people are just going to buy ships in duplicate and that's dumb.
    4. You should have a reduction in fatigue when returning to your capital system or point of origin.
    5. Jump fatigue should NOT affect combat effectiveness. At all. Ever.
    6. Move mode is a bandaid fix that isn't needed if the base mechanics themselves still allow enjoyable gameplay.
    7. Do not allow rigs or modules to reduce jump fatigue, but drugs would be okay if done right (w/ penalties etc).
    8. Local content means that I can fight in adjacent regions as much as I want, but not fight someone across the map.


    Other suggestions:

    • Make the use of jump bridges have a flat 90% reduction in fatigue when used, regardless of ship type.
    • Give black ops battleships a reduction to jump fatigue.
    • Give other ways for players in deep nullsec to reach empire without having to blue everyone in between.
    • More suggestions as I think of them....


    Im not quite sure I agree with all your points


    1. The small ranges reduce how far you can move but also reduce the amount of fights you can reasonably have
    2. agree
    3. no opinion
    4. sounds good
    5. It already affects combat effectiveness. The sheer fact that I can't jump reduces the amount of fights I can get into, if the enemy knows I just jumped they know we can't attack them.
    6. Moves are currently a literal pain, some cross region moves can take weeks for smaller corps across time zones because we have no way to fight the larger groups that can drop us if we go region gates and lack of range reduces our ability to just jump between regions. Moves between alliances can remove my entire ability to play for 3 weeks or more, that's neither fun nor good for my willingness to play this game.
    7. I would love to have something to reduce fatigue, maybe not mods
    8. I agree with this, but its nearly impossible to fight near across many regions.

    M1k3y Koontz
    Speaker for the Dead
    Stay Feral
    #13 - 2015-08-12 19:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
    BLOPs need a stronger fatigue bonus, maybe 75% instead of 50%, because at max range one jump lands 40 minutes of fatigue. If the idea is get-in-get-out then their bonus needs to be better.

    Also jump bridges, as it stands I only use them with haulers because of the fatigue bonus. Whether that should be changed depends on whether this is "working as intended".


    Local content means I don't have to fly more than 15 jumps to find people to kill (I've burnt out after four years) Thankfully we fight in Curse, even if we own space in Tenal (what a sea of blues and NIPs that is).

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    Bleedingthrough
    #14 - 2015-08-12 19:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
    Wormhole projection
    I think reducing the number and life-time of C5-null connections was a great mistake. It reduced possible content en masse: for WH groups that enjoy messing with null guys, for null guys that want a logistic route to highsec, for null groups that want to use it to project power, for people that probe from null into w-space for PvP, for WH groups to move captials, ...

    As I understood it CCPs problem with power projection was large cruiser fleets being able to move via WHs. But CCP never explained the exact reason for this change very well. I wish CCP explained these reasons more clearly especially if these changes are such a content destroyer.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2015-08-12 19:53:01 UTC
    Also, current jump ranges are fine. If anything, I think that JFs should be knocked down to 5LY again, but this opinion of mine is influenced heavily by the unparalleled success of Deklein as a local market/manufacturing haven, and I am aware that other groups struggle in this department. As such, I can't wholeheartedly espouse that opinion as something that should be done, but it IS something I want.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    NoobMan
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #16 - 2015-08-12 19:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: NoobMan
    So the big points that kept being brought up is:
    1. Traveling to your content and the reasonable time it takes for your to move,
    2. Power projection balance
    3. Fatigue and how it reduces the frequency conflict can occur due to not want to to frequently move, and build up large exponential amounts of fatigue.
    4. How the above 3 effect "Local conflict"

    Example: You live in a region and inside of that region there is a fight you need to get to, it's 20 jumps away. You would like to cut the distance with a jump bridge or a titan bridge to bring subcaps. You get to the fight, the fight happens we get the PvP content we desire and play the game for, and then we need to return home. Again we would like to cut the boring travel time with a titan bridge. Your arrive back home in a reasonable time, and now you've got your self a couple hours a fatigue. BREAKING NEWS: another fight can be had in your same Local area. The same tactic used to travel to get to the last fight due to the stacked fatigue is now not an option. The FC is now debating whether or not it is worth the travel time of taking 20 gates there and 20 gates back home, or if his fight will happen by the time they can get there.

    The design and balance issue is being able to jump from point A to B and then back to A and repeat this throughout the night. This would make a nice circle of Local power projection that is reasonable and can be repeated as many time as there is PvP content to be had. What CCP is worried about is jumping from point A to B to C to D. Which gives a very large circle of power projection with the intended fatigue and jump reactivation timers. Which I feel we understand and are happy with the current fix to the issue of A-B-C-D.

    TL:DR
    There needs to be an opportunity to travel in a reasonable time inside our Local spheres and return home and repeat as many times as there is content to be had.


    Other thoughts:
    Some sort of Region based fatigue system. Inside the Region you live in, you are given a certain set of rules that allow you to travel quickly. Soon as you cross into another region you are hit with some type of fatigue. You go one more Region your hit again.

    I feel CCP really needs to define what size sphere of power projection they want to allow and work on rules/mechanics to support it. And in an universe of having our cake and eating it too it would be a huge quality of life increase to create a system where getting your fleet back home from where it was staged originally would be possible. Just thoughts... I know :Power Projection: , I'm just saying what causes people to "Risk averse" with wasting thier members time with the non-PvP boring logistical side of PvP.

    Operations Director of Hard K(n)ocks Inc.
    Ravcharas
    Infinite Point
    Pandemic Horde
    #17 - 2015-08-12 20:02:18 UTC
    I see jump fatigue and "power projection" as an inseparable issue from the ships themselves. So I think you need to communicate what you want jfs, carriers, dreads, supers, and titans (and rorqs huehue) to be like in the new sov system. What are their uses, what are their respective roles.

    The jump fatigue part cannot be discussed in a vacuum, as it were. Without a reasonable statement of intent regarding capitals, it's just a theoretical discussion about "how" that isn't at all grounded in a practical "why."
    Rowells
    Blackwater USA Inc.
    Pandemic Horde
    #18 - 2015-08-12 20:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
    Make moving through normal space less painful, for them. Right now they dont have anythin g worth being called a prop mod except to reduce align time and you have to hyper-specialize to get anywhere near reasonable movement speed within a system. If its to be encouraged to do that, I think a little love for that kind of movement wouldnt be missed.

    also: local content to me is 10-20 minutes of travel time. Anywhere farther than that and the objective is completely different.
    Querns
    Science and Trade Institute
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2015-08-12 20:02:50 UTC
    My only real issue regarding fatigue is in tandem with jump bridges. I feel like the combination of requiring jump bridges to be linked to a single destination, combined with fatigue, make them severely underpowered for all tasks other than moving industrials between two systems.

    My suggestion is to sever the requirement that jump bridges be linked -- allow jump bridges to be dialed into ANY destination within their range with an online jump bridge, by the person using it. Think of it as a pos-mounted titan bridge that's always on. Fatigue accumulation and liquid ozone usage would remain the same. This would allow for home defense to more fluidly react to marauders, while still keeping the so-called "Eye of Terror" scenario from happening.

    This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
    Lucas Raholan
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    #20 - 2015-08-12 20:03:20 UTC
    Andreus Ixiris wrote:
    My suggestion: remove jump fatigue entirely and/or reverse jump range changes entirely, preferably both. From the forums and the roundtable today this has clearly not been a popular change. Neither of the changes were particularly popular or fun on their own, but both of them together is far too oppressive, and at leaset one aspect of the change should be reversed.

    Power projection absolutely should be limited but this is most certainly not the way to do it.


    I disagree in part...Jump Ranges did need a nerf as teleporting across the cluster at a whim was way to powerful and prevented small entities from using capitals in fleet operations due to larger groups such as PL etc being able to drop on them within moments from 5 regions away.

    What needs adjusting is the level of the range and the fatigue itself, 5ly is much to small atm and makes moving capitals around even your own area of space a tedious undertaken, having to move a dreadnought around low sec was quite easily the least fun thing I've done in EVE beside POS management. upping this range to even 6/7ly would make this alot simpler.

    Fatigue itself seems fine beyond a few scaling tweaks so you don't end up with months of cool down each time you have to jump

    Shitposts so bad CONCORD gave me a 50 billion ISK bounty
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