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Jump Fatigue Feedback

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Author
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#221 - 2015-08-14 11:41:28 UTC
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

New players joining are roughly the same.

I'm about 95% sure the dip in subs is people unsubbing worthless, fatigued jump drive alts.

Not today spaghetti.

Speedkermit Damo
Invicta.
#222 - 2015-08-14 11:53:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Tuzy Naranek wrote:
Phoebe and Aegis are killing this game. Jump fatigue needs to be removed entirely. Nullsec is stagnant due to stubburn small-gang pvp loving game designers trying to force the majority of nullsec players to play the game the way these developers like to play the game instead of sticking true to the sandbox nature of Eve Online. People played this game over other MMOs because this was the only game out there that had a single server everyone could play on together. By restricting movement in such a player hostile manner, you're actively encouraging people to NOT play your game. If I wanted to only fight or play with the people in nullsec that lived next to me, I would go play many of the other small-scale games that exist.

Why cannot you step back and realize this? Get your heads out of the sand and look as how your changes have decimated the daily average logged i players over time.


You are killing this game.


Nullsec is stagnant because of the cancer that is the blueing up half of nullsec and implementing NIPs with most of the rest. Nullsec is stagnant due to the risk-adverse faggotry of the people who run nullsec. Nothing to do with the mechanics at all.

It also seems rather pointless discussing power projection of caps and supers and these things desperately need to be rebalanced, and their movement abilities ought to be part of that.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#223 - 2015-08-14 12:06:06 UTC
Really I think the jump curve is the big thing to look at.

As it is now the situation in most ops has been go a few gates, jump destination, do whatever you are there to do, if it's been 40-50 minutes jump back and take a few gates again to get home. You basically know going in you'll likely have two jumps and hold that third one in reserve in case **** hits the fan. In an absolute extreme situation you can make a fourth jump but know that you'll be gating it home or done for the night. I think it would be helpful to have more jumps in that early range. Even bringing that first jump timer down to 30 vs 50 minutes would be huge in relieving some of the pain of combat caps.

One little thing regarding the UI. I think it would be extremely helpful if the tooltip on the blue timer showed what your next blue timer will be, not just the red timer. Red timer at the low levels doesn't really mean a whole lot. Also it would cause some confusion at this point because most players have made the mental adjustment, but would you consider cutting out the ten minutes of the blue timer that means nothing? Experienced players all know you are only waiting until you are below ten minutes to jump, but this is confusing to people who are new to capitals.

Please don't touch JF's

Please look at getting rid go the Rorq's drone bonus and giving us 10ly range.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2015-08-14 12:24:14 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

New players joining are roughly the same.

I'm about 95% sure the dip in subs is people unsubbing worthless, fatigued jump drive alts.


CCP said you're wrong at the roundtable. Sorry man.
Talurion
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2015-08-14 12:42:24 UTC
bear mcgreedy wrote:
Irya Boone wrote:
everything is fine with phoebe except

-should add drive fatigue too.
-Should add more fatique to Blops.
-Should reduce the mass a cyno let come through etc etc

I love sov , i lov people in it , i love caps and supers , i just don't love when bunch of retards lit cyno and come at 200 on a cruiser.



This is the problem and your argument is invalid... The reason why 200 man gangs are dropping on your cruiser is they are bored and b due to the current mechanics 0.0 has become stagnant if you want the good solo fights fatigue isn't it



Sir, 0.0 is stagnant because 3/4 of sov holders are blue to each other. No meccanics here.

Ccp should cal mittani and tell him: ok, you won the game, now gtfo.

It is now pl/n3, not PL/N3 (sacrificed all their caps)

Jenshae Chiroptera
#226 - 2015-08-14 13:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.
Phoebe is successful.
A simplification to the point of dishonesty. When they are being lost in local conflicts, I would tend to agree with you. The fact that so many are dying to being ganked while moving illustrates how stagnant and boring capital hyper-localization makes the game...
The problem with them dying is not moving in Phoebe.
It is a lack of alliances growing big enough to push into the soft parts of space and fight them locally.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2015-08-14 13:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.
Phoebe is successful.
A simplification to the point of dishonesty. When they are being lost in local conflicts, I would tend to agree with you. The fact that so many are dying to being ganked while moving illustrates how stagnant and boring capital hyper-localization makes the game...
The problem with them dying is not moving in Phoebe.
It is a lack of alliances growing big enough to push into the soft parts of space and fight them locally.



And how do you get to those parts of space? You move. And die in the graveyard which is Aridia.

Or (hilariously) don't bother, self destruct the things and just buy locally. Because that's less hassle.


A "non-combat move mode" will alleviate a shedload of problems, it simply needs to be sufficiently punitive that people will only use it to move around for relocations/deployments and not YOLOing all over the map once a week.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#228 - 2015-08-14 14:04:02 UTC
afkalt wrote:
A "non-combat move mode" will alleviate a shedload of problems, it simply needs to be sufficiently punitive that people will only use it to move around for relocations/deployments and not YOLOing all over the map once a week.

So far, most of the "move mode" penalties I've seen are associated with the ship being stuck in "move mode" for some long period of time. Bypassing "move mode" penalties of that nature for non-supers would be trivially easy.

1. Enter "move mode".
2. Move.
3. Dock.
4. Repackage and re-assemble your ship.
5. Bam, you're out of "move mode".

See how easy that was? Yes, capital rigs are expensive, but considering the implant loadouts that some groups were considering before Phoebe went live, I'd say that they would pay for them.


I think that one module that could prove to be useful is one that reduces jump fatigue accrued at the expense of jump range. This would let you act locally with more freedom yet still limit your ability to project power over a large area. No, I don't think that the inverse would be a good idea. Longer jump ranges run counter to nerfing travel.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2015-08-14 14:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Bronson Hughes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
A "non-combat move mode" will alleviate a shedload of problems, it simply needs to be sufficiently punitive that people will only use it to move around for relocations/deployments and not YOLOing all over the map once a week.

So far, most of the "move mode" penalties I've seen are associated with the ship being stuck in "move mode" for some long period of time. Bypassing "move mode" penalties of that nature for non-supers would be trivially easy.

1. Enter "move mode".
2. Move.
3. Dock.
4. Repackage and re-assemble your ship.
5. Bam, you're out of "move mode".

See how easy that was? Yes, capital rigs are expensive, but considering the implant loadouts that some groups were considering before Phoebe went live, I'd say that they would pay for them.


I think that one module that could prove to be useful is one that reduces jump fatigue accrued at the expense of jump range. This would let you act locally with more freedom yet still limit your ability to project power over a large area. No, I don't think that the inverse would be a good idea. Longer jump ranges run counter to nerfing travel.


I kind of think that the obvious solution would be to introduce an NPC freighting company that you can pay to move your stuff, but it takes a long time to be delivered.

Yeah it hurts the player created freight company that 1% of the eve population uses, and it introduces risk free asset movement but it's better than what we have now?

Damn, I'd use it just to consolidate all the junk i have scattered around the universe.
Harry Saq
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#230 - 2015-08-14 14:46:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Saq
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Tuzy Naranek wrote:
Phoebe and Aegis are killing this game...and a bunch of other incorrect stuff


Nullsec is stagnant because of the cancer of blueing up half of nullsec and implementing NIPs with most of the rest. Nullsec is stagnant due to the risk-adverse faggotry of the people who run nullsec. Nothing to do with the mechanics at all.

It also seems rather pointless discussing power projection of caps and supers and these things desperately need to be rebalanced, and their movement abilities ought to be part of that.

Honestly, the beauty is that the blueing half the map is now absolutely unnecessary beyond your current region (for much larger alliances you could go it alone), they just haven't figured it out yet.

Assuming we don't get walk back due to the utter petulant noise of a few that can't wrap their heads around the new reality, things will start shaking out in the future, assuming CCP's efforts to improve localized (literally individual systems) quality of life is even moderately to slightly poorly executed in implementation/development (done well, and it will work itself out).

Change the role and nature of capitals (primarily defensive and tied to sov/infrastructure) and absolutely keep the concept that travel is a real commitment.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#231 - 2015-08-14 14:49:41 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
afkalt wrote:
A "non-combat move mode" will alleviate a shedload of problems, it simply needs to be sufficiently punitive that people will only use it to move around for relocations/deployments and not YOLOing all over the map once a week.

So far, most of the "move mode" penalties I've seen are associated with the ship being stuck in "move mode" for some long period of time. Bypassing "move mode" penalties of that nature for non-supers would be trivially easy.

1. Enter "move mode".
2. Move.
3. Dock.
4. Repackage and re-assemble your ship.
5. Bam, you're out of "move mode".

See how easy that was? Yes, capital rigs are expensive, but considering the implant loadouts that some groups were considering before Phoebe went live, I'd say that they would pay for them.


I think that one module that could prove to be useful is one that reduces jump fatigue accrued at the expense of jump range. This would let you act locally with more freedom yet still limit your ability to project power over a large area. No, I don't think that the inverse would be a good idea. Longer jump ranges run counter to nerfing travel.


Well, we already have restrictions around repackaging - for example damage items. It wouldn't be impossible to stop.

I've never tried in a station but if you try and remove an MJD on cooldown with a depot, it refuses. I wonder if a similar effect happens when docked (or could be made to happen) which would block repackaging. In which case, we could make it a mode with XXX cooldown and thus is impossible to remove until that cooldown is over.

It is a good spot though.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#232 - 2015-08-14 14:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
afkalt wrote:
Well, we already have restrictions around repackaging - for example damage items. It wouldn't be impossible to stop.

I've never tried in a station but if you try and remove an MJD on cooldown with a depot, it refuses. I wonder if a similar effect happens when docked (or could be made to happen) which would block repackaging. In which case, we could make it a mode with XXX cooldown and thus is impossible to remove until that cooldown is over.

It is a good spot though.

Interesting observation about the MJD on cooldown. In your situation, if you dock with your MJD on cooldown and attempt to repackage your ship, does it let you? I'll have to try that next time I get on.

If it doesn't, and a "move module' being on cooldown doesn't let you remove it or repackage your ship...that could be a viable avenue to explore.


EDIT: As an alternative, add some kind of jump-drive specific damage to the hull that slowly repairs itself over time that would prevent repackaging. Fatigue would still remain on the pilot, but if you wanted to push your jump drives and move further at the cost of combat ability (which is degraded while your jump drive is damages), that too could be something worth investigating.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2015-08-14 15:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I'm at work, can't test it. I have a nasty feeling docking will overrule it, but perhaps not.

They did say there is an option of tying fatigue to a hull - if that is the case and an "event" can attach to a hull, I'd bet there is a way to tie a "do not repackage" flag to a hull.


edit: Or an active module which prevents docking (....) with a real long cycle time. I feel an agility kick would be required for survival though. Unclear how DT would handle this.

I also like the idea of something that makes the outbound trip take longer so that ambush using the method is impossible (i.e. the cap using them method cannot ambush, not the other way). Again, not thought enough about how to balance that.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#234 - 2015-08-14 15:26:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I'm at work, can't test it. I have a nasty feeling docking will overrule it, but perhaps not.

They did say there is an option of tying fatigue to a hull - if that is the case and an "event" can attach to a hull, I'd bet there is a way to tie a "do not repackage" flag to a hull.


edit: Or an active module which prevents docking (....) with a real long cycle time. I feel an agility kick would be required for survival though. Unclear how DT would handle this.

If fatigue is attached entirely to hulls, that would likely just result in chains/depots of ships at the ready to travel long distances. But for something like a modifier to existing mechanics, attaching that to a hull could work.

I'll test this when I get home.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Alyxportur
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#235 - 2015-08-14 16:13:11 UTC
Harry Saq wrote:
Stay strong CCP, the majority of the angry noisy feedback is short sided junk based on an obsolete entrenched mindset. Your vision is good, your goals are correct, do not go back, continue pushing forward and just bring on the system/constellation fortification ability and work on features that encourage and allow player density within said systems/constellations.


The 'build it and they will come' policy only works when people aren't in the process of leaving.

Sexy Cakes wrote:
http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility

New players joining are roughly the same.

I'm about 95% sure the dip in subs is people unsubbing worthless, fatigued jump drive alts.


Activation of new accounts and a drop in the number of active, older accounts are nothing alike. Which do you think motivates CCP more to change and rethink something they did to the game: Fewer new people joining or a rapid decrease in their existing population?
FFK
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#236 - 2015-08-14 16:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: FFK
It seems to me that CCP is missing important point. They are talking about limiting power projection. OK. When fatigue was added and sov wars required capitals, it was true. Now, capitals and super capitals are not needed for sov wars any more. So what would prevent powerblock from deploying non capital ships to your border (like to low sec) and dropping off your sov?! It's easy to buy or to move non capital ships and ammo because powerblocks have numbers of skilled players and money. So where is limitation of power projection?! Poebe was a step forward but Aegis is step back...

So what is stopping powerblocks now? I think answer is simple: boredom of current game mechanics in part of sov wars. So goal is reached but what's the price?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#237 - 2015-08-14 16:59:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
More capitals, especially Supers and Titans are dying.
Phoebe is successful.
A simplification to the point of dishonesty. When they are being lost in local conflicts, I would tend to agree with you. The fact that so many are dying to being ganked while moving illustrates how stagnant and boring capital hyper-localization makes the game...
The problem with them dying is not moving in Phoebe.
It is a lack of alliances growing big enough to push into the soft parts of space and fight them locally.
And how do you get to those parts of space? You move. And die in the graveyard which is Aridia..
You are thinking current alliance moving around.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#238 - 2015-08-14 17:04:17 UTC
Okay first and foremost i am a capital pilot (carrier) but i live in a c2 wormhole so my usecase is radically different from most people, Especially since my carrier is in K space...

Altering jump ranges
I don't particularly mind the 5 LY Limit, but more cannot hurt. (is there data on the average jump length of capital ships pre-post phoebe? A bellcurve of both could be very interesting)

Altering jump fatigue curves
Probably the best idea I once tried to work out how long it'd take me to move my carrier out of storage to where we would have some use for it... 22 Jumps through station systems, Okay... I can deal with that i have a cyno char... Wait thats like a 24h operation nowadays, screw it!

Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
Would get exploited in under 1.3 femtoseconds I'm broke but i can afford to prestage a few carriers around low and chain roll carriers if i had too...

Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
Could be really cool "you guys hold on i'm 5 minutes out, overheat the logi until i land" type thing...

Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
Cannot really comment because i dont do sov, but that might make a region like deklein an even bigger homefield advantage...

Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
I live in a wormhole i am used to rolling a wormhole and going "i wonder where i am going to end up today" (XXdeath territory or FCon it is always Xdeath or FCon territory...) But i cannot really comment on it as my carrier is a kspace beastie...

Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
This, i feel would be the best solution... Maybe some kind of building up nerf to resistances? Feel free to jump 16 times to get somewhere but you're going to end up with 5% armor resists!

Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
Could also tie into the one above it maybe? It sounds cool but it would heavily depend on how long it'd take me to become combat viable on the far side... I mean if i am going to prestage my carrier i am going to need it TODAY (like 4-8 hours max)

Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
Might make it so that the richer people get an unfair advantage over us "i only have a suitcase carrier which i use to haul some spacejunk" versus "Okay all PL/BL/imp/whatever Supercap pilots, 1000 units of Jumpfatigue-X Strong are now docterine fit for all ships above dreadnaught size".

What does local-content mean to you?
Wherever my wormhole comes out... But if i lived in Kspace, i guess like 15-20 minutes move time? If it's much more then that i can go and do something else with my time...
WhiteHalo117
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#239 - 2015-08-14 17:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: WhiteHalo117
Talurion wrote:
WhiteHalo117 wrote:
1. Reduce the time you need to wait to jump again in half.

2. Hard cap the fatigue timer to some obscure amount of time that's not super long but is semi painful.

2. Make it so it takes a handshake between both parties in order for someone to add you to their watch list.

3. Leave current jump ranges as is for caps/super/titans

4. Remove jump fatigue you acquire entirely from jump beacons and jump bridges (except Titan bridge).

If these things are done you give back the "overlapping spheres of influence" and medium to large fights will happen in eve again. You make it so owning space is useful again, and keep power projection in line. You also make it so people can actually move their supers/titans solo. You no longer have a 100% certainty of losing it moving solo and can keep your character subscribed to the game.

Edit: Oh, also while you're at it why not just remove the widow from the game entirely?


Large scale fights? You wont see any soon, I'm sorry for you. The only coalition that was able to contrast you guys died with the last war almost 1 year ago. How cant you understand? Is not fozziesov fault that you cant have fun, it is just because you decided to join the largest coalition of the game. I can't understand how you dont understand...
I have the right change for you: man up, find your lost balls and leave cfc with your friends and start to fight them. I'm sure you will have fun. I did few years ago and I strongly suggest you to do so.



Ok you're taking what I said out of context. I never blamed Fozzie Sov for there not being large fights. I blame the lack of overlapping influence, and I gave pretty decent ways to fix that. Granted those are MY opinions and feel free to disagree, but if you had any sort of reading comprehension skills you would realize that. Also when I say medium to large fights that's in context to the current situation as of today. Not pre-fozzie sov, so at this point I would consider the engagements Reavers had with Darkness medium to large. Not the 4000 man fights 1 year ago......Also I don't mean to put a bullet right through the head of your crappie argument, but I joined the CFC when we where the ones in danger of being invaded. I just joined the side that ended up winning and playing the game better then N3/Test/PL/Retirement Club/BL/Raiden. Also I'm having plenty of fun dropping my Titan on MOA every chance I get honesty......
Tau Phoenix
Eternal Darkness.
Initiative Mercenaries
#240 - 2015-08-14 17:39:46 UTC
Have a bonus reduction to jump fatigue for jumping within your own sov area. If you own the sov you should have this benefit awarded to you as the sov owner. This could also be indexed in some way to the sov index.