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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#221 - 2014-07-15 14:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.


New people should have a completely safe area to play while they learn, but if you make that available for just anyone then everywhere else is going to be very quiet.


I'll add to that; the NPE, while allowing new players to be safe from other players, needs to emphasize over and over just what these newcomers are going to face in the real game.

The training and learning experiences need to prepare them for the inarguable facts that they will will be griefed (as the rest of the MMOverse uses that word), robbed, assassinated, and scammed at every turn if they are not alert and careful. They need to be shown, I think, some of the more common scams. A lot of them will fall for them anyway once they're out there...but we need to take away the "WTF I didn't know they could do that to me!" excuses and let the willfully ignorant get what they deserve while preparing those who listen.

They need to enter the real EvE understanding, really understanding, that they are rarely safe. And, somehow, they need to be shown how all of that can be fun.


I simply don't understand why anyone thinks this will work. Anyone with teenage kids knows you can tell some people some things all day long and they still won't get it until something bad happens to them.

Many new players will learn the ropes in this 'safe' zone/holodeck whatever. They'll be told EVE is dangerous. They'll watch videos of EVE danger. They will fly ships in training and 'lose' them but suffer no real consequence. They'll graduate and go out into real EVE.....


.....and get blown up, lose all their stuff (which shouldn't have been on one ship to begin with), quit and run to the nearest MMO site that allows comments or even THIS FORUM and post about how "EVE doesn't warn you about how you can lose all your stuff, CCP should fix their game" lol.
Romana Erebus
Syndicate Enterprise
Sigma Grindset
#222 - 2014-07-15 14:36:28 UTC
Eve is a game for the thick skinned. Easily offended people dont fare well
Naburi NasNaburi
Doomheim
#223 - 2014-07-15 14:52:40 UTC
n00b griefing, baiting etcpp has been *taken care of* at least to some degree.


https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems


Quote:
Warning: Attempting to abuse a new player’s lack of knowledge of the game and its mechanic for your personal gain or simply for their harm is prohibited in these solar systems. This includes, but is not limited to; tricking new players into situations where you or others may open fire on them freely or scamming ISK or assets from them. Disregarding warnings to cease such behavior from authorized CCP personnel is considered to be in violation of section 6 of the EVE Online Terms of Service.

Pilots found to pursue activities against new players in other areas may be subject to further restrictions as deemed necessary by CCP Games Customer Support Team.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#224 - 2014-07-15 14:56:41 UTC
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.

The Rules:
11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.

The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2014-07-15 15:03:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.


New people should have a completely safe area to play while they learn, but if you make that available for just anyone then everywhere else is going to be very quiet.


I'll add to that; the NPE, while allowing new players to be safe from other players, needs to emphasize over and over just what these newcomers are going to face in the real game.

The training and learning experiences need to prepare them for the inarguable facts that they will will be griefed (as the rest of the MMOverse uses that word), robbed, assassinated, and scammed at every turn if they are not alert and careful. They need to be shown, I think, some of the more common scams. A lot of them will fall for them anyway once they're out there...but we need to take away the "WTF I didn't know they could do that to me!" excuses and let the willfully ignorant get what they deserve while preparing those who listen.

They need to enter the real EvE understanding, really understanding, that they are rarely safe. And, somehow, they need to be shown how all of that can be fun.


I simply don't understand why anyone thinks this will work. Anyone with teenage kids knows you can tell some people some things all day long and they still won't get it until something bad happens to them.

Many new players will learn the ropes in this 'safe' zone/holodeck whatever. They'll be told EVE is dangerous. They'll watch videos of EVE danger. They will fly ships in training and 'lose' them but suffer no real consequence. They'll graduate and go out into real EVE.....


.....and get blown up, lose all their stuff (which shouldn't have been on one ship to begin with), quit and run to the nearest MMO site that allows comments or even THIS FORUM and post about how "EVE doesn't warn you about how you can lose all your stuff, CCP should fix their game" lol.



Ok, hang on. You brought the teenagers into this, so fine: I'm past the raising teenagers part of my life and just because a bunch of kids are going to die due to bad drugs or other bad decisions, get pregnant, stupidly drop out of school, wind up on the streets, etc doesn't mean we don't teach them about the bad stuff...over and over...in an attempt to prepare them.

Just because some are going to have bad endings doesn't mean we don't try and prepare the rest. That's foolish.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
JAF Anders
Adenosine Inhibition
#226 - 2014-07-15 15:29:56 UTC
Eve is not a game designed to attract everyone.

True, we should explore options to make the new player experience better. It's heartbreaking to see someone give up on something they were excited about just because we didn't explain how to do it well enough.

The pursuit of excellence and stabbed plexing alts.
Kotch 247
Doomheim
#227 - 2014-07-15 15:37:32 UTC
I opened this thread expecting to read that EVE had lost its reputation. That would be indicative of a real problem.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2014-07-15 15:40:04 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:

Ok, hang on. You brought the teenagers into this, so fine: I'm past the raising teenagers part of my life and just because a bunch of kids are going to die due to bad drugs or other bad decisions, get pregnant, stupidly drop out of school, wind up on the streets, etc doesn't mean we don't teach them about the bad stuff...over and over...in an attempt to prepare them.

Just because some are going to have bad endings doesn't mean we don't try and prepare the rest. That's foolish.

You're right, but that doesn't mean that these things that lead to "a bad end" need to be removed either. Just because some people partake in certain activities while either naïve, or unaware of the consequences, doesn't mean that said activities inherently problematic. In keeping with the teenager analogy: there's a reason that the Puritan influenced legal restrictions on sex and drugs are being rolled back, in relatively short order. They were a stupid idea to begin with.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#229 - 2014-07-15 15:40:10 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.


New people should have a completely safe area to play while they learn, but if you make that available for just anyone then everywhere else is going to be very quiet.


I'll add to that; the NPE, while allowing new players to be safe from other players, needs to emphasize over and over just what these newcomers are going to face in the real game.

The training and learning experiences need to prepare them for the inarguable facts that they will will be griefed (as the rest of the MMOverse uses that word), robbed, assassinated, and scammed at every turn if they are not alert and careful. They need to be shown, I think, some of the more common scams. A lot of them will fall for them anyway once they're out there...but we need to take away the "WTF I didn't know they could do that to me!" excuses and let the willfully ignorant get what they deserve while preparing those who listen.

They need to enter the real EvE understanding, really understanding, that they are rarely safe. And, somehow, they need to be shown how all of that can be fun.


I simply don't understand why anyone thinks this will work. Anyone with teenage kids knows you can tell some people some things all day long and they still won't get it until something bad happens to them.

Many new players will learn the ropes in this 'safe' zone/holodeck whatever. They'll be told EVE is dangerous. They'll watch videos of EVE danger. They will fly ships in training and 'lose' them but suffer no real consequence. They'll graduate and go out into real EVE.....


.....and get blown up, lose all their stuff (which shouldn't have been on one ship to begin with), quit and run to the nearest MMO site that allows comments or even THIS FORUM and post about how "EVE doesn't warn you about how you can lose all your stuff, CCP should fix their game" lol.



Ok, hang on. You brought the teenagers into this, so fine: I'm past the raising teenagers part of my life and just because a bunch of kids are going to die due to bad drugs or other bad decisions, get pregnant, stupidly drop out of school, wind up on the streets, etc doesn't mean we don't teach them about the bad stuff...over and over...in an attempt to prepare them.

Just because some are going to have bad endings doesn't mean we don't try and prepare the rest. That's foolish.


Some of us prefer not banging our heads against brick walls. My dad told me "you go to jail, you stay there, because that's better than being homeless, which you will be if you do something that makes you go to jail". I grew up in what people call the inner city, we call it the Hood.

Our neighbors thought my dad was too harsh, they coddled their kids (my school and play mates) while looking down their noses at him, tried to shield there kids from the harsh reality of our city till it was time to go out into the world.. Most of those kids are dead or in prison while I'm free and have no criminal record. That new age 'protect your kids to success' stuff doesn't work, in game or out.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2014-07-15 16:03:26 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:

Ok, hang on. You brought the teenagers into this, so fine: I'm past the raising teenagers part of my life and just because a bunch of kids are going to die due to bad drugs or other bad decisions, get pregnant, stupidly drop out of school, wind up on the streets, etc doesn't mean we don't teach them about the bad stuff...over and over...in an attempt to prepare them.

Just because some are going to have bad endings doesn't mean we don't try and prepare the rest. That's foolish.

You're right, but that doesn't mean that these things that lead to "a bad end" need to be removed either. Just because some people partake in certain activities while either naïve, or unaware of the consequences, doesn't mean that said activities inherently problematic. In keeping with the teenager analogy: there's a reason that the Puritan influenced legal restrictions on sex and drugs are being rolled back, in relatively short order. They were a stupid idea to begin with.


And I agree with you, Gallowmere. The things that make EvE what it is should not be removed. That isn't the same thing as saying we shouldn't be doing what we can to educate the future wolves while removing the excuse of "I didn't know!!" from the sheep. It's not the naivety part that I'm opposed to, it's the 'unaware of the consequences' part.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2014-07-15 16:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Jenn aSide wrote:

Some of us prefer not banging our heads against brick walls. My dad told me "you go to jail, you stay there, because that's better than being homeless, which you will be if you do something that makes you go to jail". I grew up in what people call the inner city, we call it the Hood.

Our neighbors thought my dad was too harsh, they coddled their kids (my school and play mates) while looking down their noses at him, tried to shield there kids from the harsh reality of our city till it was time to go out into the world.. Most of those kids are dead or in prison while I'm free and have no criminal record. That new age 'protect your kids to success' stuff doesn't work, in game or out.


Great (and seriously, if in fact you came up through The Hood™ congratulations on being intact), and does that imply that your dad never told you not to do the stupid **** that would land you in jail?

What, did he expect you to learn all of that by osmosis or was "If you go to jail, you stay there..." prefaced by trying to teach you about the stupid **** that would land you there in the first place? I'm betting on the latter.

I don't know what "new age" has to do with this, Jenn. I don't recall advocating for a removal of consequences, I'm advocating for doing some "Hey, don't touch that heating element when it's red!!!" before the kid learns by taking a trip to the hospital for burns. What's your problem with that?

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#232 - 2014-07-15 16:20:43 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Some of us prefer not banging our heads against brick walls. My dad told me "you go to jail, you stay there, because that's better than being homeless, which you will be if you do something that makes you go to jail". I grew up in what people call the inner city, we call it the Hood.

Our neighbors thought my dad was too harsh, they coddled their kids (my school and play mates) while looking down their noses at him, tried to shield there kids from the harsh reality of our city till it was time to go out into the world.. Most of those kids are dead or in prison while I'm free and have no criminal record. That new age 'protect your kids to success' stuff doesn't work, in game or out.


Great (and seriously, if in fact you came up through The Hood™ congratulations on being intact), and does that imply that your dad never told you not to do the stupid **** that would land you in jail?

What, did he expect you to learn all of that by osmosis or was "If you go to jail, you stay there..." prefaced by trying to teach you about the stupid **** that would land you there in the first place? I'm betting on the latter.

I don't know what "new age" has to do with this, Jenn. I don't recall advocating for a removal of consequences, I'm advocating for doing some "Hey, don't touch that heating element when it's red!!!" before the kid learns by taking a trip to the hospital for burns. What's your problem with that?

bad argument is bad.

what do prison or children have to do with eve again?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2014-07-15 16:24:07 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:

And I agree with you, Gallowmere. The things that make EvE what it is should not be removed. That isn't the same thing as saying we shouldn't be doing what we can to educate the future wolves while removing the excuse of "I didn't know!!" from the sheep. It's not the naivety part that I'm opposed to, it's the 'unaware of the consequences' part.

Then I feel it is time for me to apologize for mistaking you for one of the "nerf ze bad stuffs" veiled in "save the newbros" derps that have been plaguing this thread.

Sorry about that.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#234 - 2014-07-15 16:37:55 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Some of us prefer not banging our heads against brick walls. My dad told me "you go to jail, you stay there, because that's better than being homeless, which you will be if you do something that makes you go to jail". I grew up in what people call the inner city, we call it the Hood.

Our neighbors thought my dad was too harsh, they coddled their kids (my school and play mates) while looking down their noses at him, tried to shield there kids from the harsh reality of our city till it was time to go out into the world.. Most of those kids are dead or in prison while I'm free and have no criminal record. That new age 'protect your kids to success' stuff doesn't work, in game or out.


Great (and seriously, if in fact you came up through The Hood™ congratulations on being intact), and does that imply that your dad never told you not to do the stupid **** that would land you in jail?

What, did he expect you to learn all of that by osmosis or was "If you go to jail, you stay there..." prefaced by trying to teach you about the stupid **** that would land you there in the first place? I'm betting on the latter.

I don't know what "new age" has to do with this, Jenn. I don't recall advocating for a removal of consequences, I'm advocating for doing some "Hey, don't touch that heating element when it's red!!!" before the kid learns by taking a trip to the hospital for burns. What's your problem with that?




The problem is that we aren't talking about kids, but people with an average age of 27 who somehow have access to a computer and a connection to the internet lol. If they have the internet, they have Google. if they have EVE they have EVE voice. Via the internet that can also get mumble or Teamspeak. All of these are avenues for finding out things, along with the standard "it's a video game, go out and try stuff" route.

Grown folks shouldn't (and imo, real EVE type players don't) need such hand holding in the 1st place, if they do, this is a really bad choice of game. I'd hate to see DEV time wasted in a NPE idea that would likely go nowhere.

Since i started in 2007, CCP has been trying to "improve" retention and the NPE (with the end result of a somewhat watered down game). Rather than wasting all that time, I think they should have been trying to figure out what KIND of people like EVE and trying to find more of them instead of spending time trying to fit a square peg (your average gamer) into a round hole (a space ship sandbox game in an industry where most consumers don't like space ships or non-thempark style games).
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#235 - 2014-07-15 16:39:08 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:

bad argument is bad.

what do prison or children have to do with eve again?


The best EVE payers are children born in prison. They feel right at home Cool
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#236 - 2014-07-15 17:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
OK so let me get this straight. The Goon boss advocates a safe haven for new players because of player retention? And we are talking about the CFC, which is known for it's recruitment scams (and even openly confesses doing so on their wiki)? Are we still talking about the guys that are "ruining Eve" with their newb-friendly blue doughnut? My god people, are you really this dense?

If this plan takes root I am going out of business, seriously. My corp has a mission to turn oblivious newbies into hunter-killers of local repute, the hard way. We do not shower newbies with ISK and SRP, if anything these brave new players learn the value of ISK by first dying all the time, and seeing the difference two-three months in when they have 50% or more KB efficiency and a few hundred mil ISK to their name.

Quit carebearing.
Quit killmail-whoring.
Quit your tinfoil hattery.

You want to empower newbs? Train them yourselves. I have never seen such a display of utter lazyness with these requests for an updated NPE. YOU ARE THE NPE. Evil

Why in the world would you want to shield newbies from the inevitable, for the actual core game, with convulted mechanics that seperate them from the real thing? Why let NPC's pamper the new players if for no other reason, then you being to ****ing lazy and selfish to do it yourself? Ohhhh I see... it would be bad for your ISK/Hr to actively teach other players a thing or two.

To thee I say... carebears. Our newbs would skin you alive, if you had the gall to solo on our turf. Pirate
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2014-07-15 17:09:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:



The problem is that we aren't talking about kids...




Well, we weren't...until you did. Cool

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#238 - 2014-07-15 18:26:44 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied.
.....


And yet I am still here....
Now how do you explain that ?

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Tao Dolcino
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#239 - 2014-07-15 18:27:01 UTC
I have played The Lord of the Rings Online (and other generic wow-like games)for many years. In this game, you can only be part of the "good" people.
"Good" people are endlessly massacring other humanoids, animals and all what is moving.
In what is it more ethical than EVE please ?
We close our eyes everydays on all the horrors humans can commit in real life, but we are shocked when people PLAY some bad ones.
It's all hypocrisy.
Be good in real, and play evil in EVE if you like, the world will be a much better place than if you do the opposite.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#240 - 2014-07-15 19:00:19 UTC
Eve is a dirty dirty girl. That is her reputation. No, she doesn't give it up on the first date.. but when she does.. your mind=blown.

She will not treat you nice, she will abuse you, berate you, humiliate you.. and you will love and pay for every moment of it.

When you are not with her, you will think of her.. when you leave her, you will always find your way back to her.. for more of that abuse that you say you don't want or like.. but secretly you do.. you do. Deep down you are a twisted individual who into all that kinky space submarine stuff. That warp scram bondage, getting bumped below the belt, getting into a threesome on the undock.. you ******* love it.

If Eve changed its user interface to a leather mask and a ball gag.. you all know damn well that you would gladly put it on.. just to play.Eve is like that, and so are you.

You say that you want Eve to be like all the other girls.. but.. why aren't you with all the other girls in the first place? You passed them all over just to be with Eve.. but then you are all like.. "Eve.. stop being a freak in the bedroom, and start being June Cleaver." But Eve cant do that.. she likes to smoke in the girls locker room, maybe she likes to shave her head and dye her eyebrows green, maybe even throw a nose ring in there for giggles. You know you like that. You wouldn't be happy with her any other way, no matter how much you make comments to the opposite.

I love Eve's reputation, and you all do too.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?