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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

First post
Author
Myxx
The Scope
#1 - 2014-07-14 22:14:22 UTC
I'm saying what I'm going to say with the intent on perhaps piggybacking on the recent discussions on how awful the NPE is, because there is another problem related to getting new blood in the game, that threatens to hurt the game before people even try it. I am not going to propose ideas on how to fix it, or claim it needs to be fixed. That is for others to decide. I am simply a messenger.

EVE's reputation has a problem with gamers outside of EVE.

This has been known, I think for some time between many EVE players. Its been mentioned and is something that I think a fair number of us encounter when we talk about EVE to other gamers.

I was playing another MMO last night, that will go unnamed, but I saw talk about EVE and another game in a chat channel I was in, that had somewhere around 200~ other people in it.

This is the quote that got my attention:

Quote:
EVE is a terrible game. I've heard horror stories about it, the pretty much legalized griefing that goes on in the game and ****. Guild officers robbing entire guilds blind, forceful takeovers of guilds and draining them. ******* over new players in general. Its just **** I've heard, I've never played the game though. I probably never will, why would anyone want to experience that?


For many of us, that might seem a bit... tame. For many people that play this game, that's a normal sunday in game.

But, it does speak to the problem itself. Read it again, particularly the last part. "I've never played the game though. I probably never will, why would anyone want to experience that?"

But, this isn't new, nor a new problem.

Comments in an article about that problem back in march/april that got someone banned rather publicly for harrassment are worth reading. Article in question, read the comments: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

Quote:
Eve, a great place for jerks to congregate and pretend they're good at something, when in reality the only thing they're good it is being douche bags, and having way too much time to play a video game.


From a former player:
Quote:
Sociopaths like E1 will always find victims because weak ones are numerous in our world.

Abusing them is never ok, even if they are willing to be abused.



CCP had to answer faster on this matter and they did not. My EVE accounts have been cancelled and I will never set foot in this universe (and I don't want to call it a game, I have too much respect for them) again. I am quite ashamed to have been blind for so long.



Enjoy your s***box. (the *** were put there by me, not by some profanity filter).


From a steam review:
Quote:


i also grew to mistrust the company CCP and the community of this game, although im sure there were lots of decent human beings amongst them. the biggest problem i had with the community happened when i first started playing. the leader of one of the most prominent corporate alliances had shown up to a livestream drunk and called out a player by his real name and asked his followers to grief this poor, totally innocent guy. the leader said during the livestream that he wanted the player to actually commit suicide irl, and the big bad leader was marshalling his ingame forces to "make it so".

this despicable behaviour was reprimanded with a slap on the wrist, a mere 30 day suspension from their little ingame council, and as far as i know, nothing more was done.

there seemed to be a lingering resentment towards players who choose to pve or mine or whatever, and i read more than a few forum posts that were more like essays on how the elitist players are right in how they grief players who choose to mine, likening them to worse than mindless drones that deserve to die over and over. it felt like i was reading the manifesto of a sociopath, rather than a reasoned sensible opinion.


Quote:
This isn't a game. This is a chatroom for the sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs


The point is... EVE has a reputation problem that gets people to never consider trying it to begin with. This is not good for the game. What should be done about it, if anything?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#2 - 2014-07-14 22:16:55 UTC
Awwwwww damnnnn... Torch and Pitchfork Firesale!!!!!!!!!!






Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Paranoid Loyd
#3 - 2014-07-14 22:19:18 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Awwwwww damnnnn... Torch and Pitchfork Firesale!!!!!!!!!!


WTB, 1 of each please.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-07-14 22:21:13 UTC
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.
Myxx
The Scope
#5 - 2014-07-14 22:23:29 UTC
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#6 - 2014-07-14 22:26:49 UTC
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann

Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-07-14 22:28:32 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?


i can see where you're coming from, and it's definitely a problem that'd be better solved thru spreading awareness of the groups in eve that work to provide a gentler newbie experience (i'm thinking mainly of the eve university people, who run a pretty useful wiki and seem generally nice) than making any alterations to eve's actual gameplay.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-07-14 22:32:42 UTC  |  Edited by: LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Myxx wrote:
wall of text


All of the above is correct.

If EVE wants to avoid the slow decline, it needs to introduce areas for consensual PvP (arenas-battlegrounds-whatever) and clamp down on the griefing/suicide-ganking.

New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.

Simple as that.

Will it happen? No, because ~reasons~

Whatever. Theirs jobs to lose, not mine. Meh.

EDIT - and why the hell aren't there normal video-tutorials? What is this, the 1990s? Instead of wasting money on flashy intros, get a nice 2-hour long video tutorial on how to actually play the game.
Myxx
The Scope
#9 - 2014-07-14 22:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?


i can see where you're coming from, and it's definitely a problem that'd be better solved thru spreading awareness of the groups in eve that work to provide a gentler newbie experience (i'm thinking mainly of the eve university people, who run a pretty useful wiki and seem generally nice) than making any alterations to eve's actual gameplay.




Nowhere did I suggest changing gameplay. More to the point, I am pointing at parts of the EVE community that might be doing more harm than good in the long run. I'm personally more of the mind that putting social pressure on them to stop doing harm to EVE is probably a better way to go about it.

Gameplay changes that might be a good idea are outside the scope of this post.
Kuroi Aurgnet
Cry Of Death
Almost Underdogs
#10 - 2014-07-14 22:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuroi Aurgnet
in a word, to answer both- nothing. I have been playing this game for several years. Nothing CAN be done about the community. the game encourages them to be the way they are, and the issue is that changing any mechanics to try to dissuade this kind of nasty behavior would end up being suicide for CCP because a massive amount of players would unsub because of the upset this would cause.


sadly, while eve is indeed a great game- it really has nowhere to go but the path it's on. Numbers here and there say its a good path, and other numbers say its a horrible path. all we can do as players is try to welcome the new players with open arms and try to gently teach them about the reality of eve.

edit: to the newly posted point of social pressure- that would essentially end up with the same result. People would feel as if CCP is trying to oppress them in some way, and would result in one of two things:

1. a small player backlash until eventually CCP stops, and everyone forgets about the incident
2. people would start to unsub in rage as the "freedom" they once had is stripped away

Just that hint of cynicism the world needs now and then.

Ursula Thrace
Dreamland Augmented Consortium
#11 - 2014-07-14 22:34:59 UTC
OP, i've heard similar discussions in the chat channels in other MMOs as well.

to be honest, i think eve is a niche game that will continue to grow, albeit slowly, over time. maybe it's too much like real life for a lot of gamers. maybe the sandbox scares some potential players.

i don't know what a resolution to bringing in a massive amount of new blood would be honestly, but i know in order for eve to thrive (like it should be doing because it's the best MMO around), new ideas need to spawn.

what those new ideas are, i don't know. What?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-07-14 22:36:41 UTC
I like how all of the comments made by former players who have left bad reviews, or the people who have never even played, always add in a little extra bullshit to their gripe. Who cares what they think?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-07-14 22:36:55 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?


i can see where you're coming from, and it's definitely a problem that'd be better solved thru spreading awareness of the groups in eve that work to provide a gentler newbie experience (i'm thinking mainly of the eve university people, who run a pretty useful wiki and seem generally nice) than making any alterations to eve's actual gameplay.




Nowhere did I suggest changing gameplay. More to the point, I am pointing at parts of the EVE community that might be doing more harm than good in the long run. I'm personally more of the mind that putting social pressure on them to stop doing harm to EVE is probably a better way to go about it.


... pressuring people to change their playstyle is changing gameplay, though. an enormous amount of eve's content is created by the players, and trying to manipulate the way people play space jerk simulator 2k14 for the greater good is just silly
Myxx
The Scope
#14 - 2014-07-14 22:39:03 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
I like how all of the comments made by former players who have left bad reviews, or the people who have never even played, always add in a little extra bullshit to their gripe. Who cares what they think?



People that haven't played EVE and are thinking about it care. That's the point, and the problem. If you **** people off to the point that they leave, and they tell five people to never try it... it adds up fairly quickly.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-07-14 22:40:14 UTC
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.


New people should have a completely safe area to play while they learn, but if you make that available for just anyone then everywhere else is going to be very quiet.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#16 - 2014-07-14 22:40:16 UTC
Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied.
Its reputation is a reflection of that.
Your "ex" player quote is from infinity ziona...nuf said.

Grow up, eve is hard and we make it that way because we like it that way
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-07-14 22:42:54 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied.
Its reputation is a reflection of that.
Your "ex" player quote is from infinity ziona...nuf said.

Grow up, eve is hard and we make it that way because we like it that way
Still have that evergreen motorcycle pic, Ralph?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#18 - 2014-07-14 22:43:01 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Your "ex" player quote is from infinity ziona...nuf said.



Awwwwwww damnnnnn.... Stern telling offs all around!!!!! (non-violently of course)

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-07-14 22:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathaniel Raynaud
also, from the perspective of a player and not someone trying to make money off of this game, what exactly is the advantage of getting a lot of new players if most of them are going to be boring and low-quality
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#20 - 2014-07-14 22:46:32 UTC
You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity.
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