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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#201 - 2014-07-15 09:24:21 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

Maybe if you actually understood how many predators can be supported by a prey population you wouldn't be on the forums so much, spewing this hogwash. The determination of highsec predators to destroy their own playstyle is phenomenal.


So then you're telling me that Jita is... not... choked to death with haulers and such? But hey, turns out the predators like the waterhole too.

Or is it a problem that they are allowed to die at all?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mikael Menethil
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2014-07-15 09:39:26 UTC
Emination of Haxti wrote:
All the reputation issues stem from hi sec, the home of the douchebags and ****** mechanics.

Solution: remove hisec.




The douches in highsec usually come from null.

Solution: more barriers between low / null and hisec.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2014-07-15 09:44:01 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point



YEt is barely ever used on its advertisement. Seems all advertisement about eve is"look shiny space ships.. in huge blobs".

If eve was more advertised as the supreme social engineerign game, then you would be right.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Alexei Stryker
Council of Stellar Erections
#204 - 2014-07-15 09:48:03 UTC
@OP

I see no problem in there. We dont really need Hello Kitty players in here. HTFU
Nami Kumamato
Perkone
Caldari State
#205 - 2014-07-15 09:59:19 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point


Who cares what people think - the only ones that can say anything about EVE are the ones who played it.
And from the ones who played it, the ones who stayed.
Stop worrying about EVE's reputation when as Ramona said - it's probably it's strongest selling point.
If that would have been an issue CCP would have at least tried to address it. But it doesn't - check the "Be the villain" adds on sites.

EVE is like Game of Thrones - when you play it you live or you die.
Also IMO it's not a game - it's more of a social simulacrum with internet spaceships - or "case study into human nature if X technology was available".

And also would you care what a pink-armored-level-gaziliion-cow-paladin thinks? I mean honestly....
When their game would allow things like Asakai or B-5R, they can come and tell me how much my game sucks...till then enjoy grinding your epix.

Fornicate The Constabulary !

Christian Lionbate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2014-07-15 10:08:36 UTC
If the cute and cuddly try to snuggle (nod to Don) up against the criminally insane there has to be a certain level of violent adjustment expected. HTFU or do one I guess.
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#207 - 2014-07-15 10:11:07 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
KIller Wabbit wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity.



Yep. CCP doesn't need their money.

Anyone seen a legit subscriber count in a while? No? Didn't CCP brag, errr, publish that number every year?


Well, the wiki entry for EVE says that the subscriber numbers were officially released in December of 2013. So it hasn't been released yet.

Last year was an exception that we heard about early since they hit a nice milestone. But if you think you can interpret silence as being support for your agenda, you are a long way off, Scope.


Thanks! Here's looking forward to December 2014, if the doors are still open.

I guess the number usually released with the CSM election was just overlooked.

But who cares? Subscriber numbers mean nothing to content, right? It's those pesky login's creating content.



Yup, eve is dyin
Bexar Ying
Unit 479
#208 - 2014-07-15 11:06:13 UTC
I don't understand why CCP still can't comprehend that some players actually play this game to have a positive experience.

I shut down all five of my accounts over a year ago, nd just came back to see if things had changed for the better. It's pretty obvious that nothing has changed except I use to se more than 60k players on at a time. I haven't even seen 30k on since I've been back, more than two weeks.

I would see that as a dangerous trend if I were CCP, but maybe they want it all to quit so they can focus on another of their 'games'. One thing you can always trust CCP about is that everything they announce is a lie.

Maybe this isn't the right game for me, but I have survived more 5 years of it, and hope springs eternal.

I agree, though that this is not a game that deserves to continue. Neither does CCP.

BTW, after all this time I'm still a carebear, even though it cost me two Obelisks this month. :)
Arkady Romanov
Whole Squid
#209 - 2014-07-15 11:14:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Bexar Ying wrote:
I don't understand why CCP still can't comprehend that some players actually play this game to have a positive experience.

I shut down all five of my accounts over a year ago, nd just came back to see if things had changed for the better. It's pretty obvious that nothing has changed except I use to se more than 60k players on at a time. I haven't even seen 30k on since I've been back, more than two weeks.

I would see that as a dangerous trend if I were CCP, but maybe they want it all to quit so they can focus on another of their 'games'. One thing you can always trust CCP about is that everything they announce is a lie.

Maybe this isn't the right game for me, but I have survived more 5 years of it, and hope springs eternal.

I agree, though that this is not a game that deserves to continue. Neither does CCP.

BTW, after all this time I'm still a carebear, even though it cost me two Obelisks this month. :)



*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

EVE has almost never hit 60K active concurrent users except on a handful of rare occasions. Second thing; your EVE experience is as positive as you make it. Clearly you haven't found the right method of achieving that yet.

Whole Squid: Get Inked.

Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2014-07-15 11:29:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

Maybe if you actually understood how many predators can be supported by a prey population you wouldn't be on the forums so much, spewing this hogwash. The determination of highsec predators to destroy their own playstyle is phenomenal.


So then you're telling me that Jita is... not... choked to death with haulers and such? But hey, turns out the predators like the waterhole too.

Or is it a problem that they are allowed to die at all?


Did I say anything about Jita? Did you, in the post I replied to? *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

The best way to preserve and expand the playstyle you enjoy is to expand the population you prey upon. This adds more targets for you, and adds to CCPs income stream, making them more secure, and less likely to nerf your playstyle.

The difference between the predators and prey is that the prey can play without predators, but the reverse is not true. Yet you, and quite a few other people, are constantly on this forum screaming and crying about your own content. The Mittani gets it, most of you don't. If you want to have people to prey on, get rid of stupid illogical crap that makes them quit before you even see them, instead of treating it like a sacred cow. Then, maybe a case could be made to get rid of super CONCORD.

If this game is killed by anything, it will be by he shortsighted bullshit of people who dont understand what makes it go. Highsec predation is a niche in a niche game. It cannot be any other way.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#211 - 2014-07-15 11:33:45 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:

Did I say anything about Jita? Did you, in the post I replied to?


I did.

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Sodabro
Doomheim
#212 - 2014-07-15 11:42:12 UTC
what problem? EVE's reputation is about big fights and serious metagaming. that's not a problem.

on the other hand, my lemon sodas aren't selling fast enough. THAT is a problem.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#213 - 2014-07-15 12:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point


This.

There are millions of players who love to play "politically correct", traditional style, sword and board games.

Then there's the only MMO that caters to "the others", that takes its pride at being different.

Not by random chance, the MMOs catering to the former are all flattened around FEW titles, one of which still holding strong and killing the imitations. The MMO catering to the latter has no relevant competition and actually survives despite its age and flaws also because of that.


So, make EvE switch sides and become "like all the others" and it will fail like most of the others, it'll lose many years loyal players who don't identify themselves with the major numbers while not attracting enough of the traditional players (who don't even care about space sci fi).

EvE can either die a quick death by flipping sides, or slowly age and fade by staying true.


The 'traditional style' gamers will never ever understand that, hell, at the end of the day they don't really understand the consequences of what they keep asking CCP for daily on these forums.

What you said is a major point to me: EVE is one of the few games that (imo and for the most part) treats players like adults and says "it's up to you". Many of those who complain about this (but still choose to play) aren't really complaining about the game's mechanics and culture, they are really complaining about their inadequacies and inabilities.

Like their inability to stop playing a game that they don't really like. I don't know how many times I've read on here that someone was playing 'because of the game EVE could be' or 'I like spaceships and there are no spaceship games' (like Star Trek Online doesn't exist lol).

I think that in game as it is in life, there will always be those uncomfortable, malcontented people who honestly believe that a situation that's perfectly fine as is needs to 'change simply for the sake of change' and those types will always be pissed off when things don't move fast enough for their tastes.

Progress, change, evolution , these things are great and necessary, but only when properly understood and purposeful and relevant and doesn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#214 - 2014-07-15 12:35:48 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

RAW23
#215 - 2014-07-15 12:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: RAW23
EvE is full of nursery Nietzsches playing at being the 'superman'. On the one hand this makes EvE an incredibly vibrant sandbox in which ideologies clash and ideas and ethics become weapons - there is nothing else quite like it. Unfortunately, like in any other area where kids get hold of a poor grasp of second hand philosophy, this can lead to the overstepping of boundaries and extremely distasteful behaviour.

Some of the things in the OP are, as another poster said, actually some of the best characteristics of EvE (the thefts, political manipulation and general ethically open playing field). What's disturbing is the general failure among posters here to distinguish between those things and the genuinely questionable behaviour that is lionised by some parts of the community. A game where you can be evil in game is great but that type of behaviour often leaks into the real-world due to the liminal realm of the meta-game, where in-game is out of game and out of game is in-game.

Erotica 1's behaviour is not on the same level as ingame emergent events as it targets and victimises the person playing the game, not the person ingame. Similarly, Mittens' behaviour at fanfest crossed the line into the real world in a quite unfortunate way. These are the kind of reputation issues that the game really does need to deal with and they need to be separated from the in-game villainy. You can applaud the latter without upholding the former as being in some way integral to the EvE experience.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#216 - 2014-07-15 13:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Bexar Ying wrote:
It's pretty obvious that nothing has changed except I use to se more than 60k players on at a time. I haven't even seen 30k on since I've been back, more than two weeks.
Just one problem: all of what you said can be checked against recorded history. All of what you said is wrong.

Quote:
I agree, though that this is not a game that deserves to continue. Neither does CCP.
Why not?

RAW23 wrote:
What's disturbing is the general failure among posters here to distinguish between those things and the genuinely questionable behaviour that is lionised by some parts of the community. A game where you can be evil in game is great but that type of behaviour often leaks into the real-world due to the liminal realm of the meta-game, where in-game is out of game and out of game is in-game.
I don't know if I'd describe it quite like that. Mainly because you make it sound like it's the same people who exhibit those two behaviours. In reality, with a couple of notable exceptions, they are almost entirely separate.

On the one hand, we have the people who are “evil” in-game; on the other hand, we have the people who can't quite separate in-game from out-of-game and who exhibit very evil (no quotation marks) behaviour out-of-game (often as a result of in-game events). No-one really celebrates the real-life missteps — threats of violence, harassment, untold amounts of abuse — that the latter category routinely engages in, but there is this very disturbing projection going on where it's the one who keep it in-game who gets the blame for those missteps or where the celebration of in-game mischief is grossly misinterpreted as confirmation that they also applaud those OOG abuses.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#217 - 2014-07-15 13:14:51 UTC
RAW23 wrote:


Erotica 1's behaviour is not on the same level as ingame emergent events as it targets and victimises the person playing the game, not the person ingame. Similarly, Mittens' behaviour at fanfest crossed the line into the real world in a quite unfortunate way. These are the kind of reputation issues that the game really does need to deal with and they need to be separated from the in-game villainy. You can applaud the latter without upholding the former as being in some way integral to the EvE experience.


Well, I am fairly confident that the "normal" players who love EvE for its harshness are not attracted by, nor support those edge cases that clearly show some RL psychological disturbs. They'd really do fine without that kind of "advertisment".
Anyway, edge cases can't be taken as representative of the majority, even in WoW there had been the famous "Serenity Now" funeral gank.
RAW23
#218 - 2014-07-15 13:32:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
I don't know if I'd describe it quite like that. Mainly because you make it sound like it's the same people who exhibit those two behaviours. In reality, with a couple of notable exceptions, they are almost entirely separate.

On the one hand, we have the people who are “evil” in-game; on the other hand, we have the people who can't quite separate in-game from out-of-game and who exhibit very evil (no quotation marks) behaviour out-of-game (often as a result of in-game events). No-one really celebrates the real-life missteps — threats of violence, harassment, untold amounts of abuse — that the latter category routinely engages in, but there is this very disturbing projection going on where it's the one who keep it in-game who gets the blame for those missteps or where the celebration of in-game mischief is grossly misinterpreted as confirmation that they also applaud those OOG abuses.


I agree that there is no necessary overlap between the ingame and out of game behaviour. However, as to no-one really celebrating the real-life mis-steps, I don't think that is correct. In both the Mittani and Erotica instances there was very considerable support for their actions as exemplifying the same behaviours that are considered as laudable in the game. The Mittani example is interesting in that I suspect many of those supporting him did so out of tribal loyalty rather than actual support for his unfortunate drunked joke but that in itself is just as problematic. In the Erotica case, though, not only was there a vocal supporting choir but there was a considerable degree of overlap between the supporters and people who focus on griefing in game. As I say, there is no necessary overlap but it just isn't the case that there is a hard wall between the two groups (it would be bizarre if there were).

On another level, certain types of abuse are looked down on by the community as a whole. But this often seems to be more about how stylish or childish the abuse happens to be rather than about the fact that people are being abusive.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2014-07-15 13:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
New plays should not be griefed or scammed or ganked in any way, and there should be an area in EVE where it should be COMPLETELY safe for people to play.


New people should have a completely safe area to play while they learn, but if you make that available for just anyone then everywhere else is going to be very quiet.


I'll add to that; the NPE, while allowing new players to be safe from other players, needs to emphasize over and over just what these newcomers are going to face in the real game.

The training and learning experiences need to prepare them for the inarguable facts that they will will be griefed (as the rest of the MMOverse uses that word), robbed, assassinated, and scammed at every turn if they are not alert and careful. They need to be shown, I think, some of the more common scams. A lot of them will fall for them anyway once they're out there...but we need to take away the "WTF I didn't know they could do that to me!" excuses and let the willfully ignorant get what they deserve while preparing those who listen.

They need to enter the real EvE understanding, really understanding, that they are rarely safe. And, somehow, they need to be shown how all of that can be fun.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Belt Scout
Thread Lockaholics Anonymous
#220 - 2014-07-15 13:43:12 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Now I have the image of you in a bikini talking to a muffin....I'm going to have a troubled night I know it.


I don't talk to him... he talks to me! And its not a bikini.. its my Mithril endgame armor!

And finally, lets not be disturbed over my muffin fetish, lets be disturbed because someone over at Blizzard felt it was appropriate to violate a wild boar with rolled coin.


Mmmmm. coffee. I freaking love the smell of fresh brewed coffee as it's forcefully exiting through my nose.

I'll shoot you an ingame mail with my address so you can send me the new keyboard you now owe me. Big smileBig smile

.

They say most of your brain shuts down on the EvE forums. All but the impatient side, and the sarcastic side. No wonder I'm still awake.

**This IS my main so STFU.