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EVE has a problem with its reputation. What can or should be done?

First post
Author
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#261 - 2014-07-15 23:20:04 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
EVE is not a game for everyone. Not should it try to be, because being a unique game is what makes it a great game. EVE has a reputation for being a harsh and unforgiving game because that's what it is designed to be. 'Casual' gamers don't understand this concept because they're used to games that hold their hands and give them a clear goal with no permanent consequence for failure. If you fail you try again until you make it. You keep trying the same thing over and over in EVE and you'll be broke before you know it.

What EVE needs is... well actually this recent article by TheMittani brings up some great first steps to improving quality of life for everyone, but newbies especially. Start by implementing these ideas and give the tutorial a well deserved overhaul and go from there.


I read that article, I think a gated newbie zone is a **** idea and the mittani should feel bad...

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#262 - 2014-07-15 23:23:52 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
BrundleMeth wrote:
I have an excellent attention span...Wait what's this thread about again?


It depends entirely upon where you start.

At one point there was a very disturbing point made about Blizzard in regards to treatment of animals, and how a Mithril Bikini may only protect your tender bits from attacks.



Of course in Kill la Kill you don't even need that, alien talking underwear and half a giant scissors will do fine :D



Schentoo Linux
Modulus Industrial Group
#263 - 2014-07-15 23:27:30 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point


You've got to be kidding..
Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2014-07-15 23:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Nathaniel Raynaud
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Of course in Kill la Kill you don't even need that, alien talking underwear and half a giant scissors will do fine :D


not only do you have to start talking about anime, but it's that awful pandering one about making teenage girls take off their clothes

now rewatch the end of evangelion and think about what you've done

edit: geez i should have told you to read database animals instead. being disgusted by anime on the internet is difficult
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#265 - 2014-07-15 23:43:45 UTC
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Of course in Kill la Kill you don't even need that, alien talking underwear and half a giant scissors will do fine :D


not only do you have to start talking about anime, but it's that awful pandering one about making teenage girls take off their clothes

now rewatch the end of evangelion and think about what you've done

edit: geez i should have told you to read database animals instead. being disgusted by anime on the internet is difficult


+1 for evangelion.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#266 - 2014-07-15 23:48:05 UTC
Schentoo Linux wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
EvE's reputation is one of its biggest, if not the biggest, selling point


You've got to be kidding..


When was the last time you saw an article based on the heroic adventures of an AFK miner that drew new players to the game?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Nathaniel Raynaud
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2014-07-15 23:55:49 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:

Of course in Kill la Kill you don't even need that, alien talking underwear and half a giant scissors will do fine :D


not only do you have to start talking about anime, but it's that awful pandering one about making teenage girls take off their clothes

now rewatch the end of evangelion and think about what you've done

edit: geez i should have told you to read database animals instead. being disgusted by anime on the internet is difficult


+1 for evangelion.


evangelion is a really excellent piece of work, which makes it really weird that it has so many awful fans. i'm not sure how the people that want to sleep with asuka managed to miss everything in the series that decries them as being repulsive and terrible, or how the dude that made the rei raising simulator managed to derive "yeah, rei totally needs to be both infantilized AND eroticized more" from the source material.
TigerXtrm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2014-07-15 23:56:00 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
EVE is not a game for everyone. Not should it try to be, because being a unique game is what makes it a great game. EVE has a reputation for being a harsh and unforgiving game because that's what it is designed to be. 'Casual' gamers don't understand this concept because they're used to games that hold their hands and give them a clear goal with no permanent consequence for failure. If you fail you try again until you make it. You keep trying the same thing over and over in EVE and you'll be broke before you know it.

What EVE needs is... well actually this recent article by TheMittani brings up some great first steps to improving quality of life for everyone, but newbies especially. Start by implementing these ideas and give the tutorial a well deserved overhaul and go from there.


I read that article, I think a gated newbie zone is a **** idea and the mittani should feel bad...


Care to explain why you think that?

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

My Website - Blogs, Livestreams & Forums

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#269 - 2014-07-16 00:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
TigerXtrm wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
EVE is not a game for everyone. Not should it try to be, because being a unique game is what makes it a great game. EVE has a reputation for being a harsh and unforgiving game because that's what it is designed to be. 'Casual' gamers don't understand this concept because they're used to games that hold their hands and give them a clear goal with no permanent consequence for failure. If you fail you try again until you make it. You keep trying the same thing over and over in EVE and you'll be broke before you know it.

What EVE needs is... well actually this recent article by TheMittani brings up some great first steps to improving quality of life for everyone, but newbies especially. Start by implementing these ideas and give the tutorial a well deserved overhaul and go from there.


I read that article, I think a gated newbie zone is a **** idea and the mittani should feel bad...


Care to explain why you think that?


Fanfest 2013. I was chatting to a couple of random nerds, telling them what I was doing in EVE at the time. It's something I still do to a degree. I visit rookie systems each month & gank the miners who mine out all of the ore & leave rookies with nothing, & I chat with new players & tell them things, give them advice & so forth. These nerds became really angry & deduced that I was a part of the reason there was less newbies to pick on in rookie systems.

Goons are terrible people.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Sykaotic
Doomheim
#270 - 2014-07-16 04:59:18 UTC
I have never found it a harsh unforgiving game....

its more like getting poked on the butt by a pirate when I least expect it and saying heyyyyyy stop that lol.

A short, sharp, shock, when when not expecting it, sometime it smarts, sometimes its nice... and even nicer to be the poker Pirate

Anyways.... no, this game is not for everyone, and that included the majority of many other MMO players.

It will never bring those peeps here and that is a good thing.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2014-07-16 05:08:32 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
TigerXtrm wrote:
EVE is not a game for everyone. Not should it try to be, because being a unique game is what makes it a great game. EVE has a reputation for being a harsh and unforgiving game because that's what it is designed to be. 'Casual' gamers don't understand this concept because they're used to games that hold their hands and give them a clear goal with no permanent consequence for failure. If you fail you try again until you make it. You keep trying the same thing over and over in EVE and you'll be broke before you know it.

What EVE needs is... well actually this recent article by TheMittani brings up some great first steps to improving quality of life for everyone, but newbies especially. Start by implementing these ideas and give the tutorial a well deserved overhaul and go from there.


I read that article, I think a gated newbie zone is a **** idea and the mittani should feel bad...


Care to explain why you think that?


I actually agree, to a certain degree. It would depend on the nature of the zone. Thing is, you don't wanna pad newbies up in cotton wool to the point where getting into the game proper is a shocking kick up the backside. You don't want them getting used to the cotton wool, or the idea that they can have any at all. In addition, you have to remember that EVE has a certain audience. This gated newbie zone might well appeal to a completely different audience than the actual game itself. People who WANT the challenge that EVE presents might not feel they're getting it, and unsub before they get out of the newbie zone. On the other hand, the newbie zone will end up filtering the wrong kind of audience into the game proper, and then they all go ahead and unsub too when it becomes too much to handle.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

flakeys
Doomheim
#272 - 2014-07-16 06:54:35 UTC
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
please go to church immediately


lmao, church.

you should probably also go to church

flakeys wrote:

Man , i a SO horny now .... too bad i'm married Sad

and take this guy with you



I don't feel going to church will help me from being horny.Now if i was a young boy i'm sure the priests would gladly help me out in that regard ....





We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#273 - 2014-07-16 07:46:15 UTC
If you want instant gratification, go stimulate your genitals. EvE is Hard, deal with it.

The Tears Must Flow

Jeremy Fischer1
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2014-07-16 09:13:46 UTC
I don't see EVE having a negative reputation at all.... I actually hadn't really heard anything about it before I got in the game and tried it. The community is great, the game rewarding.... those people are just errr ehmmm "sissys" who are used to more conventional games. You want to see a game that had a real bad reputation and for good reason? Age of conan. I loved that game, and it was challenging, but the community was awful. If you ever heard bad things about that game and played it, you could say to yourself yeah, that's pretty much true. People complaining about griefing are people who play the little kid games, the sugar coated watered down no brain waves required games. And I truly don't care if they play EVE or not. EVE attracts a certain type of person, and I like that about the game.
Valleria Darkmoon
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#275 - 2014-07-16 11:50:42 UTC
EVE is a fascinating case for gaming in general, you have a game that is practically a simulation of what might have happened had we started civilization over again. Just as with real civilization, conflicts arise and wars are fought over everything from space and resources down to simple spite and since the stated goal is to have these conflicts be meaningful in the creation of the game as we see fit, ships that respawn would make the fighting continue forever. While that may sound nice to some people, those of us who have made it in this game realize that this would deprive us of all the drama and the intrigue of watching a rapid version of an uncertain history unfold right before your eyes. As much as EVE may not always supply content with the push of a button, knowing that the outcome of any given fight is going to mean something for someone gives you an excellent reason to undock, especially when your space friends may live or die based on your actions. You're not going to let them die right in front of you, are you? EVE's harsh nature is simply a necessary part of making the game what it is and if it were otherwise it probably would have ended up in a bin beside all the other generic MMOs that failed to dethrone WoW.

There is something I have noticed during my now 10+ years of online gaming. Everyone wants a challenge but a challenge that they are capable of overcoming. If you get some title or cosmetic piece or some other such nonsense to mark out exactly who is worse than you then so much the better. Everyone wants to feel like they are the line where the "good" players start. (I've written at length before on how people in general aren't too interested in being the best, most are satisfied to just not be the worst ever). When someone fails to meet that line they will either demand the bar be lowered to allow them to fit into the "good" group or they will get frustrated and quit. WoW is notorious for this, introducing challenge modes then making them easier after a couple months so the "bad" players can get their title to lord over no one because now everyone has it but at least they don't feel so bad about it anymore. EVE players are different, we are more comfortable with the idea that the challenge doesn't end and wouldn't have it any other way. Regardless there will always be players for whom the adjustment to lawlessness will forever be out of their reach.

EVE does not have a clear bar or goal for players to get over and no clear way to identify yourself as superior to anyone, not surprising since we are placed into this game as a cog in the machine rather than one of the millions of chosen ones. Those of us who stay are those who truly embrace the ideal that the journey matters more than the destination. The players who know this best have provided the rest of us with countless stories over the years.

Humility is almost a prerequisite for playing EVE as people have the ability to make your life very hard if you are intent on behaving like a typical online community. (The reason I don't play LoL any more is because I would have to play it with typical LoL players). For all the flak we EVE players take from outsiders for being "sociopaths", EVE players form exactly the type of bonds you expect to find in a tribal organization. Many rules, spoken or otherwise apply but most only extend to those you who have mutually agreed to extend them to. In other words, business as usual for the human species. However we are all bound by common experience and know full well that the beat down we visit upon another player today may well be returned to us 100 fold the next jump we take and today's enemy may be tomorrow's friend. This is what leads to mutual respect and "gf" instead of trash talk, (most criticism of bad fitting etc. is not done in local). In short this community is about the best you could expect out of human beings who are honest about who and what they are, which is far better than most would give it credit for.

This game and this community by and large may be misunderstood by outsiders but they will never know what it's like to participate in a game that provides an experience that can be enjoyed on so many levels, even simply sitting in high sec and watching the rest of us as we play out the spectacle has more value than the narrative in any MMO I've ever played. Anyone who lets the horror stories of those who didn't make it scare them off will never understand what they have denied themselves.

Can't wait to see the results of another 10 years.

-Val.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.

Madam Lash
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2014-07-16 11:52:58 UTC
Jeremy Fischer1 wrote:
I don't see EVE having a negative reputation at all.... I actually hadn't really heard anything about it before I got in the game and tried it. The community is great, the game rewarding.... those people are just errr ehmmm "sissys" who are used to more conventional games. You want to see a game that had a real bad reputation and for good reason? Age of conan. I loved that game, and it was challenging, but the community was awful. If you ever heard bad things about that game and played it, you could say to yourself yeah, that's pretty much true. People complaining about griefing are people who play the little kid games, the sugar coated watered down no brain waves required games. And I truly don't care if they play EVE or not. EVE attracts a certain type of person, and I like that about the game.


A little off topic but okay...

AoC was a terrible game and comparing EVE to that horrible buggy thing is just wrong - so very, very, very, wrong... Griefing was rife in that game max or near max level toons hanging outside of Tortuga and 'hurr durring' their way to easy kills against newbs. The horrible imbalance between classes the game breaking bugs that were never fixed and the community that exploited and didn't bother to report exploits like the AH bug... I could go on and on but I've tried to block out all memory of that game - even its 'photo-realistic' boobies which always made the inn errm interesting Shocked

The difference between that (and any other MMO of its ilk) is that a new character in EVE has a chance against a similarly shipped (frigates vs frigates or whatever) opponent who might be years older than they are it doesn't come down to levels in the traditional sense but rather the way people fly and fit out. Do people like to shoot at ridiculously outclassed players in EVE? Sure they do. Do people complain about it? You bet they do. This isn't a game that attracts any more or any less 'noble' players than any other what it does attract are people who are willing to learn the system, that like the challenge of finding that one 'perfect' fit. Instant gratification isn't EVE's strong point and nor should it be.

What I personally think the problem with newer players is the 'solo' attitude they bring in from other games and you know maybe EVE's reputation has preceded itself in that regard because new players are so scared of losing their ISK they trust no-one. Most of us here would have people they fly with regularly that they'd trust not to shoot them (too much!) but unless you play with outside friends or family we all started off with the same attitude and had to make corp mates along the way, at some point a new player realises that the issue isn't with the game or the people in it but the way they themselves play it.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#277 - 2014-07-16 11:54:32 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?


I would rather have fewer people in a fun EVE than a shitton of people in a ****** EVE.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2014-07-16 12:06:37 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
What EVE needs is... well actually this recent article by TheMittani brings up some great first steps to improving quality of life for everyone, but newbies especially. Start by implementing these ideas and give the tutorial a well deserved overhaul and go from there.


sorry, but all I'm getting there is Malcanis' Law.

afaik, starter systems are "kinda" protected right now. you can't do much there without having the GM's looking at you with banhammers in hand (can baiting is forbidden, think can stealing too, and suicide ganking as well).

Tutorial needs better fixing tho, and I would go further saying that the tutorial should be comprised of doing it in an "offline singleplayer" manner, with nothing you acquire transiting to the "real" EVE. Help channels are too centralized. fragmenting them would be better.


besides that, as soon as the new guys get used to the cold harsh universe that is EVE, the better.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Zen Dad
Solitary Sad Bastard In Space
#279 - 2014-07-16 12:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Dad
Jenn aSide wrote:
You see that as a problem OP, I see it as EVE working as intended, weeding out the weak minded "I am a hero!!!" type gamers who wouldn't like EVE anyway, even beofre they try (and fail at) the game. That's most of the gaming world, hell, it's most of humanity.


Eve is a really tough game and it was designed so we could all ruin each others day. No amount of in game aggression or griefing could ever drive me away.

The forums however are another thing, and too many bitter vets post aggressively against noobs who are simply putting over their point of view.

The forums need more policing than the game.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2014-07-16 12:17:31 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Nathaniel Raynaud wrote:
isn't all that part of the appeal? eve isn't for everyone, and it's not possible to change that without completely changing the core dynamics and tone of the game. but there are plenty of "sociopathic basement-dwellers who use mindgames to screw over the other nutjobs" who relish a game that challenges them from the start and just want to be mean to people in space.



Its OK but only to a point. In the end, it amounts to less people for me to sell stuff to, less people for you to pew pew, and less people for others to do awful things to. Its bad for me, its bad for you. How bad is it before its intolerable?


I would rather have fewer people in a fun EVE than a shitton of people in a ****** EVE.

Pretty much this.

The argument that we need to attract and retain people that this game isn't meant for is ridiculous. "But CCP iz bizness, needz teh subs": yes, they are a business, but no they do not need more customers if it means alienating most of those they already have. It's the equivalent of saying that Ferrari should switch to making minivans and subcompacts, because they would move more units.