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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#581 - 2014-06-19 21:07:55 UTC
Morihei Akachi wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You do realize that posting GM communication and quoting a GM's forum post are different things, right?

Heh … fair enough. Although if that's a distinction you're going to insist on, you'll have to admit that you were wrong to accuse Sarah of claiming to have posted "communication"; she speaks only of "statements."

baltec1 was talking about private GM communication earlier but didn't quote it for obvious reasons.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#582 - 2014-06-19 21:10:50 UTC
Interesting quotes from there:
CCP Atropos wrote:
How does my reply differ from that you quoted?

The reasoning is that you're deliberately using free ships (noob frigates) and alts to bypass the risk and penalties incurred by angering CONCORD. The incurred penalties are ignored since there's no financial loss, and no meaningful security loss, since you would delete the character afterwards.

Of course, if you're willing to live with these penalties, and don't delete the offending character, then there's no problem, since it is working as intended (you lose your ship, become criminally flagged, and incur a security hit). Although no one will really like you since you're spawning CONCORD to cover your own money making schemes Cool

How about getting some players to help you mine in safety?


CCP Atropos wrote:
Ah I see the misunderstanding; I was attempting to state that if you use an alt for committing illegal acts (illegal in the sense that CONCORD kicks your ass for it) and then recycle them as a method to avoid the repercussions, you are committing an exploit. It's the avoidance of these penalties that is the problem.

I hope this clarifies my earlier statement somewhat.


GM Grimmi wrote:
Our stance towards recycling "disposable alts" for purposes such as suicide ganking or summoning CONCORD for bodyguard duty is that it is an exploit, clear and simple. Using "disposable ships" is not seen as an exploit since all ships ARE disposable, when properly insured.


Of course that was quite some time ago. I can only assume we have seen a number of policy changes since that time. Any updated Dev/GM posts with more current positions?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#583 - 2014-06-19 21:14:56 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:


At least you got one thing right: I never posted private GM communication. All DEV/GM quotes were taken from this thread on the official forums: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=818978

I suggest you read it to its full extend in order to also get the context of each CCP response.

Until you can come up with something substantial (e.g. public and verifiable quotes from official CCP people) that overrule CCP's responses in the above thread, I don't see any ground for further discussion with you about this topic.


Getting a GM answer on this is damn near impossible it seems. They just keep on giving the answer that concord blowing up ships is working as intended.

So in true goon fashion I would say abuse this questionable tactic until they come out with a solid answer.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#584 - 2014-06-19 21:23:25 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:

Until you can come up with something substantial (e.g. public and verifiable quotes from official CCP people) that overrule CCP's responses in the above thread, I don't see any ground for further discussion with you about this topic.


I don't have to "overrule" a 6 year old GM post. GM posts don't carry a lot of weight, especially since they have historically been shockingly inconsistent.

"You can impersonate yourself" being a great example. That was a real nice glimpse into how they basically make the whole thing up in the first place. Their actions and the precedents they have set are what really matter, and they have acted in a manner against pre spawning CONCORD for your defense in the past, more recently than that fossilized GM post you dug up.

But hey, baltec has a good point. If you claim it's ok, do it until you get banned for it or they issue a ruling.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#585 - 2014-06-19 21:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalon Horan
As this thread is still going on... let me give you people a little update from my side.

In the last 3 days I collected roughly 20 killmails of suicide gankers and i am actually enjoying it. Not because i hold a grudge against suicide gankers, I would be a real hypocrite if that would be my reason to do it. Years ago I used to suicide gank myself (for big profits).

Also before any of you code ppl jump in and say, it does not make a difference: I know that these kills do not really matter in the bigger picture. But it quite simply shows that it is possible to step up and to at least try to make high sec a little bit safer and not by whining on the forums but by using the tools which are available to fight them.

The fun part is that a few of them I killed a couple of times are adjusting their setups and force me to readjust my tactics as well, which I find quite enjoyable, trying to figure out how to best react on the changes they make.

And while it might not make a big difference when I am doing it alone, if more people would follow my example it would become a lot harder for them to successfully keep ganking targets.

So stop the whining, grab a ship and go out to hunt them. If you want high sec to be safer, grab a ship and do what you can to make it happen.

Also even when it is not a lot I got a little bonus of around 30 million ISK in loot and a few million in bountys as well (which of course is nothing compared to the money i could be making with other activities, but EvE is not just about ISK).
Solecist Project
#586 - 2014-06-19 21:35:29 UTC
wtf is this actually about?

Just don't use disposable alts and noobships to spawn CONCORD then ...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#587 - 2014-06-19 21:36:47 UTC
Kalon Horan wrote:
In the last 3 days I collected roughly 20 killmails of suicide gankers and i am actually enjoying it.


Out of interest, in how many of those 20 cases did the gankers kill their target?

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#588 - 2014-06-19 21:43:50 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
wtf is this actually about?

Just don't use disposable alts and noobships to spawn CONCORD then ...


Why not?

The Gankbears do, and if the GMs are foolish enough to ban freighter pilots because they spawned CONCORD early with a noob alt then you can get anyone banned by shooting them with an Ibis and having 20 people send "spoliter broke up my gank" tear petitions.

Simply BRILLANT! Roll

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2014-06-19 21:48:15 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
In the last 3 days I collected roughly 20 killmails of suicide gankers and i am actually enjoying it.


Out of interest, in how many of those 20 cases did the gankers kill their target?


Just saw 1 getting ganked. I mostly intercepted them on gates when they came from reshipping and jumping around systems, so actually caught them before they could get to a target. I also use one char to push them through gates when they bounce between gates whithin a system and then catch them with another char on the other side.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#590 - 2014-06-19 21:48:44 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
wtf is this actually about?

Just don't use disposable alts and noobships to spawn CONCORD then ...


Why not?

The Gankbears do, and if the GMs are foolish enough to ban freighter pilots because they spawned CONCORD early with a noob alt then you can get anyone banned by shooting them with an Ibis and having 20 people send "spoliter broke up my gank" tear petitions.

Simply BRILLANT! Roll


Why not? You can get people banned if your blog readers get a threadnaught going. You can get losses that shouldn't be, reimbursed. (and surprisingly often, too)

Although if someone evemails you a picture of your own front door with the caption "See Ya Soon", they totally don't get banned. But that's been a sore spot of mine with the GM staff for a while.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Solecist Project
#591 - 2014-06-19 21:49:24 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
wtf is this actually about?

Just don't use disposable alts and noobships to spawn CONCORD then ...


Why not?

The Gankbears do, and if the GMs are foolish enough to ban freighter pilots because they spawned CONCORD early with a noob alt then you can get anyone banned by shooting them with an Ibis and having 20 people send "spoliter broke up my gank" tear petitions.

Simply BRILLANT! Roll

Just that the issue seems to be the fact that negative sec alts are being recycled ...

Too many topic switches ...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#592 - 2014-06-19 21:49:56 UTC
Kalon Horan wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
In the last 3 days I collected roughly 20 killmails of suicide gankers and i am actually enjoying it.


Out of interest, in how many of those 20 cases did the gankers kill their target?


Just saw 1 getting ganked. I mostly intercepted them on gates when they came from reshipping and jumping around systems, so actually caught them before they could get to a target. I also use one char to push them through gates when they bounce between gates whithin a system and then catch them with another char on the other side.


See, to me that's not anti ganking so much as just gatecamping flashies. But hey, kills are kills.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#593 - 2014-06-19 21:58:26 UTC
I'll ask the stupid question: If you're smart enough to attack yourself to bring CONCORD to grid in anticipation of an attack, why not just spend less energy and align to warpout instead?

You can forego the alt, or the cost of tags to repair their sec status.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#594 - 2014-06-19 21:59:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
In the last 3 days I collected roughly 20 killmails of suicide gankers and i am actually enjoying it.


Out of interest, in how many of those 20 cases did the gankers kill their target?


Just saw 1 getting ganked. I mostly intercepted them on gates when they came from reshipping and jumping around systems, so actually caught them before they could get to a target. I also use one char to push them through gates when they bounce between gates whithin a system and then catch them with another char on the other side.


See, to me that's not anti ganking so much as just gatecamping flashies. But hey, kills are kills.


Well, it is one way to make it harder for them.... sure there are more options available to kill them or to just deny them kills (if they do not alpha the targets), but it does not change the fact that it is possible to kill them, before they can kill a target.

I do not want to claim that i allways succeed, but that is not really relevant. What matters is that if a lot more people would be stepping up against them high sec would be safer without ccp changing the mechanics.
Ukucia
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#595 - 2014-06-19 22:14:09 UTC
Kalon Horan wrote:
So stop the whining, grab a ship and go out to hunt them. If you want high sec to be safer, grab a ship and do what you can to make it happen.


'Couple issues with this.

First, many of the folks who are playing the mining/shipping side of the game instead of the PvP game aren't particularly interested in the PvP side of the game. Arguments like "Go get a ship and blow them up" or "why don't they all stop hiding in the station and kill the gankers" are problematic in that they're forcing gameplay choices on the miners/shippers. If it's unacceptable to force gameplay choices on gankers, it's just as unacceptable to force gameplay choices on the miners/shippers.

Just stick with arguing the game rules allow it, and the miner/shipper has tools to avoid it.

Second, it's often not practical to switch to different gameplay. Part of the reason I'm doing the mining/manufacturing thing because I now have young kids. The 9 month old doesn't respond well to "Just a sec, I'm hunting down this ganker". And it's difficult to pause a PvP battle with "Hang on a sec, kid's crying". However, rocks don't give a **** if I go make a bottle.

Yes, it means I risk getting ganked. In fact, they recently got me while the 2-year-old wanted some attention. But there's few other interesting ways to play with such real-life limitations. So I try to minimize the exposure, and get enough to rebuild my losses.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#596 - 2014-06-19 22:24:52 UTC
Ukucia wrote:

First, many of the folks who are playing the mining/shipping side of the game instead of the PvP game aren't particularly interested in the PvP side of the game. Arguments like "Go get a ship and blow them up" or "why don't they all stop hiding in the station and kill the gankers" are problematic in that they're forcing gameplay choices on the miners/shippers.


It's not forcing gameplay on anyone. It's just pointing out the route you need to take if you want to do what so many of you claim you want to do. If you want to get back at gankers, go shoot them. Otherwise, keep right on being a sheep.


Quote:

If it's unacceptable to force gameplay choices on gankers, it's just as unacceptable to force gameplay choices on the miners/shippers.


As I pointed out above, you made a huge error in saying that miners are being "forced" to do anything. They are being made to face the consequences of their actions, but those are different things.


Quote:

Second, it's often not practical to switch to different gameplay. Part of the reason I'm doing the mining/manufacturing thing because I now have young kids. The 9 month old doesn't respond well to "Just a sec, I'm hunting down this ganker". And it's difficult to pause a PvP battle with "Hang on a sec, kid's crying". However, rocks don't give a **** if I go make a bottle.


I have a three year old. She's got me killed more than a few times since she was born. Oh well, life and EVE go on.

But in the game, it's not an excuse to stop defending yourself. The other guy doesn't know what your circumstances are, and he can't be expected to care either. Nevermind that in highsec you will rarely die anyway, even if you afk in open space.

I once left a client running in a faction battleship in a 0.5 system for 90 minutes because I ran out for a fire drill. When I got back I fully expected to be in station or at the very least in a pod, but I was still alive.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kalon Horan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#597 - 2014-06-19 22:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalon Horan
Ukucia wrote:
Kalon Horan wrote:
So stop the whining, grab a ship and go out to hunt them. If you want high sec to be safer, grab a ship and do what you can to make it happen.


'Couple issues with this.

First, many of the folks who are playing the mining/shipping side of the game instead of the PvP game aren't particularly interested in the PvP side of the game. Arguments like "Go get a ship and blow them up" or "why don't they all stop hiding in the station and kill the gankers" are problematic in that they're forcing gameplay choices on the miners/shippers. If it's unacceptable to force gameplay choices on gankers, it's just as unacceptable to force gameplay choices on the miners/shippers.

Just stick with arguing the game rules allow it, and the miner/shipper has tools to avoid it.

Second, it's often not practical to switch to different gameplay. Part of the reason I'm doing the mining/manufacturing thing because I now have young kids. The 9 month old doesn't respond well to "Just a sec, I'm hunting down this ganker". And it's difficult to pause a PvP battle with "Hang on a sec, kid's crying". However, rocks don't give a **** if I go make a bottle.

Yes, it means I risk getting ganked. In fact, they recently got me while the 2-year-old wanted some attention. But there's few other interesting ways to play with such real-life limitations. So I try to minimize the exposure, and get enough to rebuild my losses.


And it still does not change what i am saying. I do not wan´t to force anyone to grab a combat ship, it is everyone´s own decision to do whatever they want to do. But if they are not willing to shape the sandbox to their liking, imo they have no right to complain about the situation.

And being a miner is a pretty weak argument. Training combat skills to be able to kill dessies does not really take long especially when people work as a team. You do not even need to expose your mining char to do it, just like the gankers you are free to train an alt to do it. Not doing it and complaining quite simply only has a single motive: "WAAAAAAHHHH I want to make ISK"...
Serene Repose
#598 - 2014-06-19 22:47:08 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Some men just want to watch the world burn.

There's space for us all in New Eden.

Some men just want to watch the malls burn.

There's space for them all in San Quentin.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Kerrat Braban
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#599 - 2014-06-19 22:55:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Noragli wrote:


I personally don't care if changes are made to fix this or not. It doesn't affect me directly, I do not use frieghters or other high value ships. This is just an observation I made, a line was crossed when they started targetting empty ships just for the sake of it. Is it time for change?
How funny is it when someone hides behind an 3 month of npc corp alt just to pretend that don't actually support something that's the took the time to post about?

Funny as in sad and weak that is.

So many people have so much to say on both sides of the argument resulting in an interesting read and a personal attack on the OP is the best you can muster?
Ukucia
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2014-06-19 22:57:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ukucia wrote:

First, many of the folks who are playing the mining/shipping side of the game instead of the PvP game aren't particularly interested in the PvP side of the game. Arguments like "Go get a ship and blow them up" or "why don't they all stop hiding in the station and kill the gankers" are problematic in that they're forcing gameplay choices on the miners/shippers.


It's not forcing gameplay on anyone. It's just pointing out the route you need to take if you want to do what so many of you claim you want to do. If you want to get back at gankers, go shoot them. Otherwise, keep right on being a sheep.


If it's the solution you're pushing, it is. You're saying they should go play your way. Just like the "carebear" demanding gankers go do something else is saying you should play their way.

Quote:
Quote:

Second, it's often not practical to switch to different gameplay. Part of the reason I'm doing the mining/manufacturing thing because I now have young kids. The 9 month old doesn't respond well to "Just a sec, I'm hunting down this ganker". And it's difficult to pause a PvP battle with "Hang on a sec, kid's crying". However, rocks don't give a **** if I go make a bottle.


I have a three year old. She's got me killed more than a few times since she was born. Oh well, life and EVE go on.

But in the game, it's not an excuse to stop defending yourself.

No one's saying it is. It's explaining one factor why "go blow them up" isn't as universal a solution as pitched.