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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#141 - 2014-05-18 11:45:00 UTC  |  Edited by: CynoNet Two
I'd love to hear from Fozzie why the bubble immunity idea wasn't picked. It's something that's floated around for a while as a way to help fix DSTs, and really this is the best balanced ship to get it. It doesn't align quickly like an interceptor, and can't cloak and warp like a T3 cruiser. Being able to warp through bubble camps makes so much sense for the DST.

Between that and some functionality to launch / scoop structures using the Fleet Hangar, I think it would see some use for once.
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#142 - 2014-05-18 11:53:14 UTC
Make them ewar immune like supers & increase hangar bay by to 75k.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2014-05-18 11:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.

No, I just worded it awkwardly.
It's not too powerful because it's a double-edged sword.


Actually I agree that bubble immunity would be a really cool idea on this ship. Slow align and no covops cloak are the two factors that prevent it from being too powerful.
I'd even argue that you could do the bubble immunity in place of the overheat bonus.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#144 - 2014-05-18 12:02:02 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.

No, I just worded it awkwardly.
It's not too powerful because it's a double-edged sword.


Agreed.


@Fozzie; interesting changes, make the ship actually have a use by giving them funky options.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2014-05-18 12:42:54 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:


After reading the thread, I'm 100% certain that this is EVERYONE's favorite scenario. Much like a procurer in lowsec, or a drake slowboating to a gate from 15km, or a Prophecy killing rats on a gate. In other words, it's obviously the best use of the ship and nobody (who knows what they are doing) is going to fall for it.

Bottom line, these changes don't help the ship class actually HAUL things.



There are people that can resist tackling a drake even if it looks like bait?
What arcane art allows such self control?

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-05-18 13:08:40 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:


After reading the thread, I'm 100% certain that this is EVERYONE's favorite scenario. Much like a procurer in lowsec, or a drake slowboating to a gate from 15km, or a Prophecy killing rats on a gate. In other words, it's obviously the best use of the ship and nobody (who knows what they are doing) is going to fall for it.

Bottom line, these changes don't help the ship class actually HAUL things.



There are people that can resist tackling a drake even if it looks like bait?
What arcane art allows such self control?



1400 mm arties in several tornados are excelent way to control yourself and not tackle himn.. you just kill him so that you remove the temptation.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2014-05-18 13:09:35 UTC
Adriana Nolen wrote:
Make them ewar immune like supers & increase hangar bay by to 75k.



why dotn you ask them to be able to cyno jump with a range of 100 ly and warp at 500 au/s while you are at the dreamland of absurdities?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
CynoNet Two
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#148 - 2014-05-18 13:22:05 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adriana Nolen wrote:
Make them ewar immune like supers & increase hangar bay by to 75k.



why dotn you ask them to be able to cyno jump with a range of 100 ly and warp at 500 au/s while you are at the dreamland of absurdities?


While the hangar increase is OTT, I actually think a supercap-style ewar immunity (instead of bubble immunity) is another nice angle for DSTs. It balances nicely with their high tank and poor speed/agility. It makes them a strong option for low-sec space, and makes focused HICs more relevant to catch them. Obviously the MJD would need to be taken away so that DSTs are still vulnerable to bubbles.
The best way to encourage use of the improved overheating and defensive abilities is to make them immune to webs and scrams. You'd then end up with a race to kill the ship before it burned back to the gate or out of bubbles.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2014-05-18 13:23:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
CynoNet Two wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adriana Nolen wrote:
Make them ewar immune like supers & increase hangar bay by to 75k.



why dotn you ask them to be able to cyno jump with a range of 100 ly and warp at 500 au/s while you are at the dreamland of absurdities?


While the hangar increase is OTT, I actually think a supercap-style ewar immunity (instead of bubble immunity) is another nice angle for DSTs. It balances nicely with their high tank and poor speed/agility. It makes them a strong option for low-sec space, and makes focused HICs more relevant to catch them. Obviously the MJD would need to be taken away so that DSTs are still vulnerable to bubbles.
The best way to encourage use of the improved overheating and defensive abilities is to make them immune to webs and scrams. You'd then end up with a race to kill the ship before it burned back to the gate or out of bubbles.



Immunity to webs while sided with the INSANE bonus to overheat would make them unkillable by ahything that is not a serious blob. Just make the calculations. You would need SEVERAL battleships to have a small chance.


ANY gameplay change that akes even more need of blobbing is BAD

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tahna Rouspel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2014-05-18 13:48:33 UTC
I know there's not many people that live in wormholes, but this new DST will be great for hauling/baiting in wormholes. We often get wormholes chains where we can't fit orcas. The DST will be the best cargo/mass for hauling pos fuel.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#151 - 2014-05-18 13:53:16 UTC
can someone post some hilarious numbers about DST active tanks after these changes?
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#152 - 2014-05-18 14:17:35 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.



Why do people think cargo scan immunity is remotely a good thing. You will just get ganked more.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#153 - 2014-05-18 14:21:15 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.



Why do people think cargo scan immunity is remotely a good thing. You will just get ganked more.


By that logic, no one uses cargo scanners anyway.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#154 - 2014-05-18 14:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
vilya novacat wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
[quote=CynoNet Two]The weedy cargo means DSTs can no longer handle starbase mods - you can't scoop / launch them from a fleet hangar. What about a slightly bigger base cargo, around 3-4k?

If the additional WCS role bonus doesn't protect the MJD, these things aren't going to live long. The spool time is more than long enough to be webbed + scrambled, and no amount of overheating will help then. What about instead of 5% velocity per level, they get -5% to MJD spool time bonus per level?


They can tank 2-3k dps


You need bubble+scram+web AND to finish the overheated tank before their overheated AB gets them back to the gate. Survivability will be pretty good.


F getting denied so easily. Make them immune to webs so that a single guy flying 2 ships won't be able to end their travel plans.

Not that I will be using them because some lame brain thought it was a good idea to kill their cargo hold and universal hauling utility.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#155 - 2014-05-18 14:35:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.



Why do people think cargo scan immunity is remotely a good thing. You will just get ganked more.


By that logic, no one uses cargo scanners anyway.



I'm sorry but what? I count on them using a cargo scanner. I want them to see I'm empty when I am actually empty.

An unscannable anything becomes a loot pinata gamble. And there are plenty of people willing to take that gamble.

People already pop double wrapped freighters on that gamble. The number of Blockade runners popped in HS has gone up since they became unscannable. The only reason more empty ones don't get popped for the loot gamble is they are cloaked 95% of the time.

So unless we can get freighter+ tanks out of the new DSTs (who knows maybe we can) I guarantee there will be plenty of people willing to pop them on the gamble if they were unscannable.

Making them unscannable makes the event random as well. I'd prefer the cargo scanner be able to see clearly that I am empty. Or see clearly I'm not carrying enough to make it worth poppping outside of the LOL's. Being unscannable I'm more likely to be randomly popped just because I 'Might" be carrying something good.

No thanks.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#156 - 2014-05-18 14:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
CynoNet Two wrote:
I'd love to hear from Fozzie why the bubble immunity idea wasn't picked. It's something that's floated around for a while as a way to help fix DSTs, and really this is the best balanced ship to get it. It doesn't align quickly like an interceptor, and can't cloak and warp like a T3 cruiser. Being able to warp through bubble camps makes so much sense for the DST.

Between that and some functionality to launch / scoop structures using the Fleet Hangar, I think it would see some use for once.


bubble immunity would mean a single interdictor with a scrammer can't deny the travel plans for a "deep space transport".

We just can't have that. Roll


Imagine how hard pirates would cry if their was one ship they couldn't use interdictor bubbles against.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#157 - 2014-05-18 14:59:59 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.



Why do people think cargo scan immunity is remotely a good thing. You will just get ganked more.


By that logic, no one uses cargo scanners anyway.



I'm sorry but what? I count on them using a cargo scanner. I want them to see I'm empty when I am actually empty.

An unscannable anything becomes a loot pinata gamble. And there are plenty of people willing to take that gamble.

People already pop double wrapped freighters on that gamble. The number of Blockade runners popped in HS has gone up since they became unscannable. The only reason more empty ones don't get popped for the loot gamble is they are cloaked 95% of the time.

So unless we can get freighter+ tanks out of the new DSTs (who knows maybe we can) I guarantee there will be plenty of people willing to pop them on the gamble if they were unscannable.

Making them unscannable makes the event random as well. I'd prefer the cargo scanner be able to see clearly that I am empty. Or see clearly I'm not carrying enough to make it worth poppping outside of the LOL's. Being unscannable I'm more likely to be randomly popped just because I 'Might" be carrying something good.

No thanks.

You are woefully wrong. There is a big difference between taking a gamble on a BR and losing a couple of tornados or talos's in an attempt to take down one of these new DST's. DST's already had good tanks, now they will be able to fit BS levels of tank. BR's should not be autopiloted anyway, not sure why you are using the ship for that purpose.
Priestess Lin
Darkfall Corp
#158 - 2014-05-18 15:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Priestess Lin
Doritos God Legend wrote:
Mediocre changes at best. Increased survivability so you can burn back to the gate you just entered from, so that you can get pointed on the other side by the same gate camp you "escaped" when they follow you through (the nonaggressed ones anyway). This is also considering that you are not webbed and pointed on your way back to the gate, which you most likely will be. Additionally, the +5% velocity to DST is useless, +5% agility per skill level (considering DST's have a worse align time then battleships), or the suggested -5% to MMJD spool time per skill level would be much better.


web immunity or bubble immunity makes much more sense. Its common to have scrams that will put an end to MMJD nomatter the spool up time. Its a total crapshoot.

Whatever the case. Devs need to accept they are bad at balancing rethink these changes. Especially what they are doing to the poor Rattlesnake which used to be versatile but now does nothing really well.

When discussing weaknesses of heavy drones vs fast frigates: baltec1- " A thanatos with a flight of geckos killed a bomber gang while AFK. So yea, they track frigates just fine." https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4678049#post4678049
Derath Ellecon
ATRAX.
Shadow Cartel
#159 - 2014-05-18 15:13:04 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
You are woefully wrong. There is a big difference between taking a gamble on a BR and losing a couple of tornados or talos's in an attempt to take down one of these new DST's. DST's already had good tanks, now they will be able to fit BS levels of tank. BR's should not be autopiloted anyway, not sure why you are using the ship for that purpose.



I think you may be equally wrong in thinking there aren't plenty of people willing to gamble a couple of tornados to see if you drop some nice stuff. There are plenty of groups who will happily pop empty freighters for the lols.

Being unscannable simply means every warp is now a gamble, empty or full. I remain unconvinced that a BS level tank is enough to counteract that gamble.

Who said anything about autopiloting a BR. There are tons of places that a BR is vulnerable. Station undocks (do you have an insta for every station in game? I know I don't, and I've had my BR targeted leaving a random station). At gates landing too close to something else to cloak. Hitting Jita at peak hours and getting stuck on the gate etc.

I just don't see having their cargo be unscannable as a good enough plus to outweigh the risks. But then again maybe those who do are the same that wanted rigs on their freighters.
Shegunna Blow
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#160 - 2014-05-18 15:16:22 UTC
Ditch the 5% velocity bonus for 10% reduction in MMJD spool-up and reactivation time. (reactivation time may be too much)

A quick MJD spoolup (4.5s by my calcs, which may be wrong) adds a unique attribute to this ship. Due to their long align, there is still time to get caught by interceptors and fast frigates.