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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#121 - 2014-05-18 06:15:49 UTC
This will be a tool for low-sec. Corporations and alliances in the area often do not have anywhere near the logistical organization that a nullsec group can offer. In my alliance there's one person that runs jita runs every blue moon. My main has -10.0 sec status; hence I have a hauler alt.

My logistics runs kind of like this. I need ships. My Occator (38km^3) or my Iteron V (45km^3) runs to a trade hub. It moves bought goods/ships to a high sec system next to my low sec staging area. My Viator Blockade Runner then makes 4-5 runs into low carrying the ships. None of these ships can carry a packaged Battleship. The Viator can't carry a BC - my main has to scurry out to high sec to pick it up and pray there's not any opportunists in the area - or I have to risk the Occator or Iteron traveling into low sec asking friends to scout.

The future Occator will be able to carry larger ships with a cargo hold just big enough for the modules to fit in. I have to go one or two jumps max. The tank is sufficient enough where if a decent sized fleet actually gets a hold of me I can last long enough for my friends in the area to come rescue me. If the fleet isn't decent sized - I can probably get away on my own. The fact that I have a subcapital ship that can move BS is really cool imho.
Kourin Morichika
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2014-05-18 06:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kourin Morichika
So I SINCERELY hope I'm wrong, but is the 100% bonus to local resistance module effectiveness applied in the following manner as I'm led to believe?

EDIT: I'm an idiot, missed the part about buffing overheating effectiveness only, disregard this post
Aluka 7th
#123 - 2014-05-18 06:25:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Really like the 1000m3 base and Fleet hangar combo together with proposed changes but think that one detail could make it perfect niche ship. It doesn't make it good enough to replace Orca and it doesn't steal jobs from other industrials in deploying POS mods. It purpose is transport in hostile space and lets focus on that.

Deep space transport should have few tools to avoid light gate camps but should still be killable with proper camp. That will make it real niche transport.

I define light camp as:
Small gang with only drag/stop bubble.
HIC with sebo/remote sebo as tackle (bubble and infinite point).
Any ship with long point(s) and no web/scram.

And proper camp as:
One that uses web and scram on range bonused ships (loki, proteus, recons) or with skirmish link booster in system.

So what it should be best is keep everything like you proposed on first page BUT replace +2 Warp Core Strength with bubble immunity and +1 Warp Core Strength or just Bubble immunity.

So he gets away from solo HIC using MJD or bubble immunity, gets away from drag bubble solo frig/cruiser as he is immune, gets away from small camp with only one long point applied as he has higher warp core strength (if he has +1 bonus) or MJD (without +1 bonus). But 2 or more long points will force him to try and spool MJD and now for <10 sec. campers must get in range and scram. But if he tries to run through proper camp or war blockade with longer scrams/webs as initial tackle (ether from ship bonuses or local skirmish links) he won't be able to warp away but could still be able to slowboat back to the gate with overloaded tank. So still quite killable, makes flying it very interesting in creating choices on multiple scenarios for pilot but is still viable for fleet resupply/refueling without need to get stuck in all the bubbles along the way and deal with solo campers.


A7

P.S. I fly transports and blockade runners and also have killed/hunted quite a few.
scimichar
Deep Hole Explorers of New Eden
#124 - 2014-05-18 06:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: scimichar
BR Thread

Quote:
Transport Ships Bonus per level:
+5% Warp Speed (was the useless tanking bonus)
-20% CPU requirements for Cloaking Devices


DST Thread
Quote:
Amarr Industrial Bonus per level:
+7.5% Armor Repairer Effectiveness
+5% Velocity


So you're taking away a "usless tanking bonus" from one set of ships, and giving it to another? It doesn't matter if a DST can tank 2K DPS. If it's tackled, it's dead. Why not give a useful bonus so it can get out better like "Reduces MMJD activation time by 5% (insert number here)"?

Edit: Didn't notice the +2 warp strength. The armor repair bonus is still useless though, other than being cyno bait of course.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#125 - 2014-05-18 06:40:08 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Was the DST really used that much to online/offline POS's?


Currently the DSTs see next to no use. They don't hold more than their T1 counterparts, often holding much less. The only thing they have going for them is a bit more tank and +2 WCS but most people are rightfully cautious about not moving T1 industrials or DSTs in dangerous areas. When you need to move stuff through hostile space, you use a blockade runner. When you need to move high volume cargo you use a T1 industrial which max out at 35-40k m3 and use caution.

POS work is one of the few areas where an updated DST would be of use for any reason other than simply having more capacity than their t1 counterparts.

TrouserDeagle wrote:
slower than a jump freighter
more risky than a jump freighter
less cargo than a jump freighter


1/50th the cost of a jump freighter. Has warp core stabilizers, tank, etc.



cost is irrelevant because there is no risk attached
Foxstar Damaskeenus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2014-05-18 06:45:46 UTC
Thanks again Fozzie!

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath

Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#127 - 2014-05-18 07:03:40 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Innominate wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Was the DST really used that much to online/offline POS's?


Currently the DSTs see next to no use. They don't hold more than their T1 counterparts, often holding much less. The only thing they have going for them is a bit more tank and +2 WCS but most people are rightfully cautious about not moving T1 industrials or DSTs in dangerous areas. When you need to move stuff through hostile space, you use a blockade runner. When you need to move high volume cargo you use a T1 industrial which max out at 35-40k m3 and use caution.

POS work is one of the few areas where an updated DST would be of use for any reason other than simply having more capacity than their t1 counterparts.

TrouserDeagle wrote:
slower than a jump freighter
more risky than a jump freighter
less cargo than a jump freighter


1/50th the cost of a jump freighter. Has warp core stabilizers, tank, etc.



cost is irrelevant because there is no risk attached


Can't use a JF where we use our DST's
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#128 - 2014-05-18 07:07:06 UTC
Innominate wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Was the DST really used that much to online/offline POS's?


POS work is one of the few areas where an updated DST would be of use for any reason other than simply having more capacity than their t1 counterparts.



We'll it seems it still could, while not necessarily the way people would like. Without eft I'm not positive on my calculations but it seems you could make a pos launching DST by adding some expanders to your fleet hangar and a mobile depot in cargo.
Starfall Achura
Angels of Achura
#129 - 2014-05-18 08:32:03 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Really like the 1000m3 base and Fleet hangar combo together with proposed changes but think that one detail could make it perfect niche ship. It doesn't make it good enough to replace Orca and it doesn't steal jobs from other industrials in deploying POS mods. It purpose is transport in hostile space and lets focus on that.

Deep space transport should have few tools to avoid light gate camps but should still be kill able with proper camp. That will make it real niche transport.

I define light camp as:
Small gang with only drag/stop bubble.
HIC with sebo/remote sebo as tackle (bubble and infinite point).
Any ship with long point(s) and no web/scram.

And proper camp as:
One that uses web and scram on range bonused ships (loki, proteus, recons) or with skirmish link booster in system.

So what it should be best is keep everything like you proposed on first page BUT replace +2 Warp Core Strength with bubble immunity and +1 Warp Core Strength or just Bubble immunity.

So he gets away from solo HIC using MJD or bubble immunity, gets away from drag bubble solo frig/cruiser as he is immune, gets away from small camp with only one long point applied as he has higher warp core strength (if he has +1 bonus). But 2 or more long points will force him to try and spool MJD and now for <10 sec. campers must get in range and scram. But if he tries to run through proper camp or war blockade with longer scrams/webs as initial tackle (ether from ship bonuses or local skirmish links) he won't be able to warp away but could still be able to slowboat back to the gate with overloaded tank. So still quite killable, makes flying it very interesting in creating choices on multiple scenarios for pilot but can still refuel fleet without need to get stuck in all the bubbles along the way and deal with solo campers.


A7

P.S. I fly transports and blockade runners and also have killed/hunted quite a few.


I was ready to dismiss what you wrote out of hand because bubble immunity but after reading I find myself somewhat swayed by your reasoning
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#130 - 2014-05-18 08:42:09 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
This will be a tool for low-sec. Corporations and alliances in the area often do not have anywhere near the logistical organization that a nullsec group can offer. In my alliance there's one person that runs jita runs every blue moon. My main has -10.0 sec status; hence I have a hauler alt.

My logistics runs kind of like this. I need ships. My Occator (38km^3) or my Iteron V (45km^3) runs to a trade hub. It moves bought goods/ships to a high sec system next to my low sec staging area. My Viator Blockade Runner then makes 4-5 runs into low carrying the ships. None of these ships can carry a packaged Battleship. The Viator can't carry a BC - my main has to scurry out to high sec to pick it up and pray there's not any opportunists in the area - or I have to risk the Occator or Iteron traveling into low sec asking friends to scout.

The future Occator will be able to carry larger ships with a cargo hold just big enough for the modules to fit in. I have to go one or two jumps max. The tank is sufficient enough where if a decent sized fleet actually gets a hold of me I can last long enough for my friends in the area to come rescue me. If the fleet isn't decent sized - I can probably get away on my own. The fact that I have a subcapital ship that can move BS is really cool imho.


zarnak you're bad, flying them in 1j from highsec on your main is fine if you actually have control of the system you're going to
Poke InTheEye
Doomheim
#131 - 2014-05-18 09:01:27 UTC
Simply expanding the cargo to 4000 m3 is not going to be that helpful. If you can only launch one module at a time, you will hit that horrible 5 launched modules per 2 minutes timer and want to smash your head while waiting for the mod launch cooldown to pass.

Seriously, you want to make pos work better, get rid of that timer. Also, allow us to launch and scoop from the Fleet hanger and things will look good. I really like the fleet hangar idea and hope there is a workaround for doing pos work with it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2014-05-18 09:03:32 UTC
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Khadann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#133 - 2014-05-18 09:59:18 UTC
"+2 Warp Core Strength"

The only way this ship would be viable for me going through low sec would be to add a 3rd warp core strength
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#134 - 2014-05-18 10:06:07 UTC
Wow, these are very very nice.
Aluka 7th
#135 - 2014-05-18 10:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Starfall Achura wrote:
Aluka 7th wrote:
Really like the 1000m3 base and Fleet hangar combo together with proposed changes but think that one detail could make it perfect niche ship. It doesn't make it good enough to replace Orca and it doesn't steal jobs from other industrials in deploying POS mods. It purpose is transport in hostile space and lets focus on that.

Deep space transport should have few tools to avoid light gate camps but should still be kill able with proper camp. That will make it real niche transport.

I define light camp as:
Small gang with only drag/stop bubble.
HIC with sebo/remote sebo as tackle (bubble and infinite point).
Any ship with long point(s) and no web/scram.

And proper camp as:
One that uses web and scram on range bonused ships (loki, proteus, recons) or with skirmish link booster in system.

So what it should be best is keep everything like you proposed on first page BUT replace +2 Warp Core Strength with bubble immunity and +1 Warp Core Strength or just Bubble immunity.

So he gets away from solo HIC using MJD or bubble immunity, gets away from drag bubble solo frig/cruiser as he is immune, gets away from small camp with only one long point applied as he has higher warp core strength (if he has +1 bonus). But 2 or more long points will force him to try and spool MJD and now for <10 sec. campers must get in range and scram. But if he tries to run through proper camp or war blockade with longer scrams/webs as initial tackle (ether from ship bonuses or local skirmish links) he won't be able to warp away but could still be able to slowboat back to the gate with overloaded tank. So still quite killable, makes flying it very interesting in creating choices on multiple scenarios for pilot but can still refuel fleet without need to get stuck in all the bubbles along the way and deal with solo campers.


A7

P.S. I fly transports and blockade runners and also have killed/hunted quite a few.


I was ready to dismiss what you wrote out of hand because bubble immunity but after reading I find myself somewhat swayed by your reasoning


Tnx. Tbh I was thinking a lot how to make it on level with cloaky usefulness and now with fleet hangar proposition it become logical - refueling job for capitals/POSes and spare fits for refitting fleet in hidden location using these as source of items and mobile depots. For example you can bring cap boosters or different guns to your subcap fleet and they change them using own depots (or you even bring some depots) and now they swapped blasters->rails to counter incoming enemy. And only way to make it useful in that capacity is if its immune from drag bubbles along the way.
Jattila Vrek
Green Visstick High
#136 - 2014-05-18 10:10:58 UTC
I really think you are going in the wrong direction with this change.

Although the MJD is powerfull in combat it isn't that powerfull for avoiding hostiles as the campers have plenty of time to scramble you (if they have 1 fitted). The added mass is a nerf to allignment time which will affect the DSTs ability to avoid hostiles.

For hisec purposes you are adjusting it to make the normal T1 haulers absolete. Alligning with MWD will still take 10s before and after this change. And you give it more cargo space than T1 haulers.

I'd rather have an MWD sig or velocity bonus (give DSTs the bonus from HACs and give HACs an AB bonus pls).
Turelus
Utassi Security
#137 - 2014-05-18 11:05:28 UTC
So... we need faction scams to catch them?

Would need 3x warp disruption str + scram in theory to stop these things getter away?

Or am I being derpy? P

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#138 - 2014-05-18 11:06:15 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Cargo scan immunity should be moved to DSTs from BRs.

I think you mean the other way around, but yes, that would make these ships perfect. But perhaps it would be too powerful.
Leon Mantis
Limul Tribal
#139 - 2014-05-18 11:20:30 UTC
Change Fleet-hanger into Ship-hanger!
NO to mmjd!
MJD for DST!


Cake!
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#140 - 2014-05-18 11:24:02 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:


zarnak you're bad, flying them in 1j from highsec on your main is fine if you actually have control of the system you're going to


Most home systems in low are one or two jumps. And most of us know the safe entry points as opposed to the unsafe. And Battleships! You can finally move Battleships. That's huge in my little world.