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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#421 - 2014-06-09 11:23:36 UTC
Stuhami wrote:
Diminishing micro jump time wont get you past gate camps since 2 seconds is more than enough for a frigate or dedicated point to eliminate your ability to use the MJD...


So your idea of reducing it would be pointless, then?

Stuhami wrote:
As for Hughsec transport part; well if that was the case there wouldnt be a tanking bonus in the first place. Gank is the name of the game in highsec and they will do it no matter what ship you have.


Don't be ridiculous. If you think tank is worthless in a highsec transport, then I think you need to be ganked more.


Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#422 - 2014-07-01 12:16:23 UTC
I hope this discussion has not finished as we need to fix the issues with this ship and where it sits in the industrial ship chain.

Both T2 industrial ships must be looked at from a null sec hauling option first before low sec and high sec are considered, as it is pointless having a T2 industrial ships that don't work in null sec where all the danger exists.

Blockade Runner

The BR is primarily used for transporting in null sec. It can with cargo expanders fit a little over 10k in cargo and is good for most hauling up to a packaged cruiser (10k). This ship is the day to day null sec hauler and will generally survive solo ships trying to tackle. Landing in a gate camp is really a 50/50 unless fully nano fit, which improves your chances considerably, but you may only have 3k cargo, which is the trade-off.

This ship is perfect and shouldn't be changed. The option of crashing the gate is perfect for this ship due to its agility and speed.

Deep Space Transport

The DST should never be considered as requiring a scout or fleet protection. If you have a scout of fleet you should be able to fly T1 industrials with no problem of running into a gate camp. DST's have to be the other solo transport option.

They should have:
1. Big cargo capacity;
2. Universal utility (pos structures, minerals, ammo, ships etc)
3. Slow, heavy and good tank;

This allows the ship to manage large, bulky items across large distances where the BR is incapable of handling the item size. The tank on these ships really doesn't do anything if you are tackled because if you are tackled you are dead, just like the BR.

I use this ship solely for transporting packaged ships and some unpackaged ships, as a carrier or JF is total overkill for the job. With 60k you can transport packaged ships (6x Cruiser hulls, 4x Battlecruisers, or 1x Battleship). This is perfect for the industrialist/trader, but the DST has to be a universal industrial ship and needs to be able to manage not just ships but all items.

Currently the Fleet Hanger can transport all items from ships, ammo, minerals, modules and PI materials. It seems like a pointless distinction between the cargo bay and fleet hanger when they can take the same items. This should just be merged into a single bay which can be increased with skills, rigs and modules.

Micro Jump Drive

The MJD is pointless. The cloak/mjd trick does not work. When used you look on your screen cloaked but to everyone you are sitting still, 100% uncloaked, with the MJD warp signature clearly visible. The only option for the MJD is jumping out of bubbles. But if you land at a bubble, the gate will most likely be under 100km so you cannot MJD and have to very slowly travel towards the gate and you are definitely dead by anyone within 3 jumps of your position.

With scramblers killing both the MJD and MWD the MJD becomes useful only for getting out of bubbles when no-one is around. If you are in a bubble with no-one around the MJD is pointless as you don’t mind spending 20mins slowly traveling out of the bubble.

Gate Camps

The primary danger for any transport ship is a single ship landing on the gate with you. Currently one ship will kill this ship very quickly with a scrambler. Fitting stabs means they need more points but you now only have an AB to accelerate you.

If you are in a bubble with a single ship with a scram, you are dead and any thought of crashing the gate won’t work. You won’t be moving very fast and they will just grab you on the other side, if you can make it in the first place which is very unlikely.

Organised camps with a dictor pilot (which all gate camps have) means this ship is dead. The idea this can run gate camps is ridiculous at the moment.

HOW TO IMPROVE THIS SHIP

Cargo Space

Turn the ship into a single universal transport ship which can handle all situations enabling the ship to be fit for its intended purpose. Have a single cargo hold which can take fitted ships, package ships, minerals, ammo, POS structures etc. Make the cargo hold large (100k) so that it becomes a useful ship.

Gate Camps

The BR uses stealth, ability and speed to avoid enemy ships. The DST needs to be able to run through these gate camps. If the ship uses tank to overcome the gate camps, then there are a couple of options. Keep the tank ability and bonuses to reps etc and add to these bonuses the following:

1. Bubble immunity;

Provide bubble immunity but make the ship take an extended time to get to warp, so it has to sit there tanking the damage. If incorrectly fit or if there is too much damage the ship will die. The DST should never have to travel at sub-warp speed. It should just warp point-to-point and that’s it. If it does move at sub-warp, its current speed if fine (less than 200m/s). Bubble immunity does not provide an overpowered ship as it can always be tackled if the warp stabilizers are overcome.

2. Deep Space Scan

Allow the ship to scan the other side of stargates and jump bridges to see what lies ahead. A pilot could land on grid with the stargate, lock the gate and select d-scan or activate a module which would use the stargate as a conduit to scan the destination system. A report would be produced (like d-scan) which would advise if any ships are on grid, ship type and if bubbles exist. Its scan range may be limited to 250km around the destination gate, so you can’t scan for everything in the system just around the gate area.

(continued below)
Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#423 - 2014-07-01 12:17:08 UTC
(Continued from above)

3. Warp Stabilizer Bonus

Require ships to overcome the warp stabilizer before scrams, webs etc, are effective at slowing the ship, shutting down MWD and MJD and preventing warp. This ship just sits still when it tries to do anything and is unable to evade ships. Therefore pilots needs to decide the cargo space/warp stabilizer ratio. More stabs less cargo but more safety and vice/versa. If the align and warp time is extended so the ship sits on grid longer before warping, the tank would become the factor in the survival ratio of the ship.

4. Remove AB and MWD speed bonuses

The DST is not meant for speed that is the role of the BR with its high agility, sub-warp speed and warp speed. There is absolutely no need for these bonuses as it should be used for point-to-point travel. In all other situations it should take a long time for it to travel at sub-warp speed.

These above changes would make this ship a useful and effective ship for its purposes. It wouldn’t make the ship overpowered and could still be killed once the warp stabilizers are overcome.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#424 - 2014-07-01 12:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Two solo transport options are neither needed nor desirable, as one would inevitably supplant the other. The niche of "escorted, high-capacity hauler" is better.

A DST has twice the cargo of a T1 hauler. When scouting fails, the extra tank of a DST has value.
Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#425 - 2014-07-01 13:28:04 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Two solo transport options are neither needed nor desirable, as one would inevitably supplant the other. The niche of "escorted, high-capacity hauler" is better.

A DST has twice the cargo of a T1 hauler. When scouting fails, the extra tank of a DST has value.



You must not fly transport haulers. There is usually no scout for this type of transport and if you get caught with a scout you deserve to lose the ship. The tank is pointless you will just sit there until your tank melts.
Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#426 - 2014-07-01 13:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Komi Toran
Arctic Estidal wrote:
Currently the Fleet Hanger can transport all items from ships, ammo, minerals, modules and PI materials. It seems like a pointless distinction between the cargo bay and fleet hanger when they can take the same items. This should just be merged into a single bay which can be increased with skills, rigs and modules.

Let me guess: you fly either a Bustard or a Mastadon. I know an Impel pilot would never say such an ignorant thing.

Edit: Man the fail is strong in your post. I'm thinking that you don't fly any of these things.

Warp Interdiction nullification in exchange for taking "longer" to get into warp? So, I take it that means you want ABs and MWDs to be forbidden from the ship, because as long as they can be, it's going to take 7.5s to get to warp.

AB/MWD bonus useless? Ever have to burn back to a gate? Now, I would prefer if this was actually a resistance to being webbed, anywhere from 15-20% per level, but these boni have a point.

And yes, you do fly this thing with a scout in 0.0 and LowSec, and you laugh if a random neut or even a small gang tries to blow you up. This ship is not for running full-fledged gatecamps. If it was, it would be called something like "blockade runner" and have a cov-ops cloak.
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
#427 - 2014-07-01 16:00:57 UTC
Actually, the resistance to being webbed is an interesting idea.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka

Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#428 - 2014-07-01 16:41:01 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Actually, the resistance to being webbed is an interesting idea.



This, but I also think it'd be a bit OP.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#429 - 2014-07-01 17:42:30 UTC
Arctic Estidal wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Two solo transport options are neither needed nor desirable, as one would inevitably supplant the other. The niche of "escorted, high-capacity hauler" is better.

A DST has twice the cargo of a T1 hauler. When scouting fails, the extra tank of a DST has value.



You must not fly transport haulers. There is usually no scout for this type of transport and if you get caught with a scout you deserve to lose the ship. The tank is pointless you will just sit there until your tank melts.


I do. When I moving stuff through WHs unscouted, I fly the one designed for unscouted hauling - the blockade runner. If I want to move bigger cargos, I get an escort/ scout and use the DST. Or an Orca, or whatever.

What's the point of wanting to make the DST into a bad kind of blockade runner?
Arctic Estidal
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#430 - 2014-07-02 05:46:40 UTC
If people have a big issue with the bubble immunity, then make players have to overcome the warp core stabilizers (WCS) before points, scrams and webs take effect.

The resistance to webs is a good idea, where level 5 transport ships skill will provide 100% assistance/resistance and force the tackler to overcome WCS before they can take effect.

If the skill is not at level 5 then the webs will have an effect and the WCS will not need to be 100% overcome for the webs to slow or turn off the MWD/MJD.

I still think that the WCS need to protect the MJD and MWD for this ship. It may be a special attribute for this ship only. But this ship needs a special ability that doesn't get it out of jail every time but increases its chance for survival.
Jasmin Fox
Keeper of the Black Star
#431 - 2014-07-02 06:08:00 UTC
The Inability for a Transport to use the fleet hanger to fill directly at a POCO is a mess. You move the items, but you cant see them in their new location. Only after docking, they magically appear.

Fix it please.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#432 - 2014-07-02 09:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Arctic Estidal wrote:

The MJD is pointless. The cloak/mjd trick does not work. When used you look on your screen cloaked but to everyone you are sitting still, 100% uncloaked, with the MJD warp signature clearly visible. The only option for the MJD is jumping out of bubbles. But if you land at a bubble, the gate will most likely be under 100km so you cannot MJD and have to very slowly travel towards the gate and you are definitely dead by anyone within 3 jumps of your position.

With scramblers killing both the MJD and MWD the MJD becomes useful only for getting out of bubbles when no-one is around. If you are in a bubble with no-one around the MJD is pointless as you don’t mind spending 20mins slowly traveling out of the bubble.


MJD can bring your ship out of harms way if it takes longer than 9s to put a scram at you(for example against a BC that is 25km away from you when you spawn on grid). It also can help a lot to get off a station that is bubbled or where you don't have a insta undock to get off the undock spot quick. Overall is is a fairly practical tool for hauling high value cargo in low sec and 0.0 plus gives you another way to get away from some tornado's or simply the undock of trade hub stations in high sec that can be crowded and makes alignment from there fairly hard.

The mjd claok trick doesn't work any more because it negated the effect of bubbles, however mwd + cloak does at any gate that isn't bubbled if the person that tries to catch you isn't on the ball or you get unlucky.

Arctic Estidal wrote:
Currently the Fleet Hanger can transport all items from ships, ammo, minerals, modules and PI materials. It seems like a pointless distinction between the cargo bay and fleet hanger when they can take the same items. This should just be merged into a single bay which can be increased with skills, rigs and modules.


The idea is that you can't increase the fleet hangar by rigs and modules. It is kind of a guaranteed cargo size, what gives you more flexibility with the low slots and rigs, since you don't need to stack cargo extenders or cargo rigs. If CCP would have wanted one by they would have given DSTs 15-20k m³ and leave it to the players to stack up mods to get that up to the current amount of what DSTs can carry.

Arctic Estidal wrote:
(Continued from above)

3. Warp Stabilizer Bonus

Require ships to overcome the warp stabilizer before scrams, webs etc, are effective at slowing the ship, shutting down MWD and MJD and preventing warp. This ship just sits still when it tries to do anything and is unable to evade ships. Therefore pilots needs to decide the cargo space/warp stabilizer ratio. More stabs less cargo but more safety and vice/versa. If the align and warp time is extended so the ship sits on grid longer before warping, the tank would become the factor in the survival ratio of the ship.


It would be next to impossible to stop a mjd,mwd, cloak fitted ship when you need 4 scrams(or 3 dead space) to shut it down in most gate camps. A blockade runner is also not 100% save, when you spawn in a bad spot close to drones, wrecks or even other ships you can't cloak and you can be very easy one volleyed off the field or de cloaked by a skilled ceptor pilot while you try to leave the bubble.

Arctic Estidal wrote:
4. Remove AB and MWD speed bonuses

The DST is not meant for speed that is the role of the BR with its high agility, sub-warp speed and warp speed. There is absolutely no need for these bonuses as it should be used for point-to-point travel. In all other situations it should take a long time for it to travel at sub-warp speed.


You need the bonus for the mwd+cloak trick in some fittings to archive a relay able result, it helps to move back to a gate when you are not scrammed or to pass a few km of bubble to reach your gate after coming out of warp(at least a bit, they are still bricks). It is useful when landing 1km outside of the dock range to close that last few hundred meters quick or to access different silos at a pos or the tower to refill it, loot wrecks at a gate quick or clear some cans that are spaced out in a belt.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#433 - 2014-07-02 09:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
As for DSTs, the shield ones need a few more points CPU and power grid(10-15 base points), because shield fittings need more CPU for the tank than armor hulls and the higher power grid on the armor DSTs scales a lot better with RCUs to allow more options in mjd/mwd/claok setups. Currently most good fittings are a few points short on power grid or cpu(even after stuff like storyline MWDs or faction Invus to save CPU) and need to drop a lot of tank compared to the armor versions to archive the same result. While it would be still very expensive to do something like this with a better tank than the normal 800mm + ANPs fitting on the armor DSTs, it should be at least a option.

[Mastodon, MWD/MJD/Cloak]
Internal Force Field Array I
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
10MN Digital Booster Rockets
Medium Micro Jump Drive

Caldari Navy Cloaking Device
[empty high slot]

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

0.49 cpu left, with astro rigging 5 and over a billion in faction mods to save the CPU, 15 points short on power grid if you want to use 2 TS RCUs + 1 TS PDU for the extra shield and to save the CPU to get a CN LSE in. That is ridiculous in my opinion, especially if the use of cpu implant/shield upgrade implant on hauler chars cost you a lot performance because you want warp speed or normal speed implants(to do mwd + cloak more relay able on some hulls) in the same slot more often than not.

[Mastodon, reasonable]
Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Power Diagnostic System II
Co-Processor II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Extender
Medium Micro Jump Drive

Caldari Navy Cloaking Device
Core Probe Launcher II, Core Scanner Probe I /OFFLINE

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

This only fits with astro rigging 5, else you have to drop down to meta 4 DCU. 0.5 cpu and 5 power grid left with perfect skills with a lot less tank than on my armor DST and hardly any room to improve it without spending a billion ISK or sacrificing the warp speed rigs.

[Impel, MWD/MJD/Cloak]
Federation Navy 800mm Reinforced Steel Plates
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
True Sansha Reactor Control Unit
Centii A-Type Thermic Plating
Centii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Centii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Damage Control II

Medium Micro Jump Drive
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I

Caldari Navy Cloaking Device
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe /OFFLINE

Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Medium Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II

Everything fits just fine with astro rigging 4 on my Amarr DST on another char, even the probe launcher could be on-line in the same fitting if you invest into a storyline plate/mwd, drop the plate to meta 4(more mass -> harder to mwd/claok at gates) or simply switch out a ANP/thermic plating for a I stab(what I normally do for low sec because it makes it a lot easier to bounce after a mjd jump with mwd + cloak). It can be fitted with plain T2 mods and a meta 4 plate or like this to have a bit more EHP and less mass without any fitting problems.

Long story short the shield DSTs need a bit more CPU and power grid, because they have a lot less options to save cpu(what are also far more expensive with the invus compared to ANPs) and the lower power grid doesn't work so well in combination with RCU stacking, like it does on the armor ones. If you drop the warp speed rigs they would be considerable slower than armor ones, especially in combination with warp speed implants, what makes them less attractive for heavy use.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#434 - 2014-07-02 09:51:32 UTC
I don't see how the DST has any purpose in a fleet. If you are in 0.0 or low-sec and need to transport valuable cargo from one place to another, you use a jump freighter to do it, because it can skip the danger of running into a gate camp completely. And in high-sec you are better off with a cloaked transport anyways. Which is also better for solo flight. And if you say that the freighter is too expensive and you want a cheap ship for cheap cargo, then any T1 hauler will be much less expensive.

The only role I see the DST fit in currently is to protect against the random, single tackler which tends to sit somewhere cloaked, waiting for pray. So if you are in 0.0/low, fly alone and need to pick up valuable cargo from places where you cannot cloak, then the DST has a fraction of a shining moment. But honestly: I never encountered any such situation, so I'd tend to say: the DST currently has no reasonable role other than to show off how much of an expensive ship you can afford for a minor task.

If you want to make the DST useful, it needs a significant bonus in addition to it's HP. Being able to tank a single attacker is a good thing, but 99% of the time pointless, especially if you have a cloaky alternative which can avoid combat entirely. Something as significant as (pick one or two):

- Ignore bubbles
- Warp-scramble immunity
- Align time like a frigate
- 100k cargo
- Dangerous weapon systems (hint: the dual gun slots on the Mastodon is a bad joke), including drones for the tacklers
- Short-range jump drive that targets gates instead of cynos (so it can be operated solo)
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#435 - 2014-07-02 10:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Raw Matters wrote:
The DST currently has no reasonable role other than to show off how much of an expensive ship you can afford for a minor task.


Actually they are very handy, they can move 6 cruisers + fittings, drones, rigs and ammo or 4 BCs at around 8 AU/s. Compare that to picking up something form the closest hub in a jump freighter if you need to do a few jumps to get into jump range of your destination.

Not every corp/alliance got a jump network for jump fighters(from the trade hub undock to her destination) and a lot of jumps towards market hubs or cheap orders on the market are still done in a conventional hauler(because it is quicker than to move your fighter around all the time, if you only need a couple of HACs, need to replace a OGB or want a extra neut Armageddon fully fitted in the hangar within the next hour or so). Another thing is WH logistics where you can't use jump freighters or even freighters(mass restriction).

While they are far more expensive than T1 haulers and not as fast/secure than BRs, they are actually fairly useful if you do a lot of corp/alliance logistic because they save trips by the bigger cargo, allow to combine tank(smart bomb BS proof, multi Tornado volley proof etc.) and speed(warp speed) better than the T1 counterparts. They also allow you to move BS around without having to train BS 1 on this char, plus on a much faster pace. Another great use is if you have to babysit some reaction posses a few times per week or have to move ore from a Belt to a station/pos(where the freighter takes over). Overall you pay for a tool that saves time and time is more often than not the major bottleneck when it comes to logistics.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread