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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Justin Cody
War Firm
#81 - 2014-05-17 21:38:41 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kyshonuba wrote:
It doesn't look like a good change for high sec haulers/industrialist

Rite now, before the change, only T2 deep space transports can haul valuable goods above 20.000 m³ .....and ii f you know how to fit them (hint: cloaky warp trick) you can even fly them through the (gank/) gates of niarja and uedama.

in high sec, PI/module/loot /ammo haulers have this kind of problem because the tech 1 industrials are gank targets as soon as they transport goods above 40.000.000 ISK. The only option for valauable stuff beyond the freighter will now be the blockade runner. ..which means 50% less cargo capacity. ( unless you wanna call a 400m³ courrier tengu an industrial ship)


I don't understand your post. After the change, DST will be able to haul 50.000m3 (+5% per skill) while having a ~80k EHP tank with a ~12 second align time. Seems like a buff to me.


It seems that way except now you can't deploy towers or other POS equipment. Big Ass Nerf (BAN)
JAF Anders
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-05-17 22:08:50 UTC
I'm sure you both had quite the chuckle when you ran the numbers for min/max'd MAAR.

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Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2014-05-17 22:12:41 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kyshonuba wrote:
It doesn't look like a good change for high sec haulers/industrialist

Rite now, before the change, only T2 deep space transports can haul valuable goods above 20.000 m³ .....and ii f you know how to fit them (hint: cloaky warp trick) you can even fly them through the (gank/) gates of niarja and uedama.

in high sec, PI/module/loot /ammo haulers have this kind of problem because the tech 1 industrials are gank targets as soon as they transport goods above 40.000.000 ISK. The only option for valauable stuff beyond the freighter will now be the blockade runner. ..which means 50% less cargo capacity. ( unless you wanna call a 400m³ courrier tengu an industrial ship)


I don't understand your post. After the change, DST will be able to haul 50.000m3 (+5% per skill) while having a ~80k EHP tank with a ~12 second align time. Seems like a buff to me.


You are rite. I misread 50.000 m³ for 5000 m³ fleethangar
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#84 - 2014-05-17 22:17:05 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
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Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#85 - 2014-05-17 22:31:32 UTC
While I think this is an interesting attempt to make the Deep Space Transport viable, I don't think it goes far enough. I personally wouldn't use them in the state described.

The MMJD addition is an interesting middle ground to solving the problem of bubbles in nullsec, but it falls flat as a solution to get away from most gate camps. A single Light Interdictor will be able to bubble, decloak the DST, and warp scramble to disable the MMJD. Since you can't Cloak/MMJD (that was disabled a long time ago) it's an interesting curiosity, but not very effective.

If the MMJD was changed so that it continued to cycle unless enough warp scramble points were on the ship to overcome any warp core strength bonuses, then that would be worth talking about. This could be a bonus specifically given to the DST.

Personally I think the Deep Space Transport should get the interdiction nullification ability - that would make it a vehicle truly able to use in "deep space" as it would avoid being dragged or trapped on gates. It will still be vulnerable to bumping, boosted HIC points, and getting multiple scrams/long points, but it would be able to tank long enough to get back to gate or warp away in more situations.



The Fleet Hangar idea I like, as it gives a nice midpoint between using a T1 Kryos and an Orca when mining in the belts, and also gives some nice flexibility ideas for providing ammo reloads in space, and other tasks.

I have to agree with a lot other comments that this really limits the ability to use a DST for setting up POS by anchoring towers and POS mods. This was one of the things that was disappointing about the T1 Industrial revamp - there was no specialized POS maintenance ship. None of the T1 specialized bays could hold Fuel Blocks or Moon Minerals, and none were really specialized to handle POS tower setup/teardown.

The DST needs to be a middle ground between having to use a T1 hauler with pure capacity, and a Jump Freighter or Rorqual - which is a pretty high SP requirement, just to manage POS.

The main cargo hangar needs to have enough space to hold POS modules to launch into space for corporation, and be able to transfer between the bays.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#86 - 2014-05-17 22:44:21 UTC
Just came to me that you no longer really need a instant warp for every crowded station because you can just micro-jump out of the docking ring and then putter to alignment in comfortable 100km distance from the heap.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#87 - 2014-05-17 23:00:46 UTC
Thats a nice rebalance, but I have three questions :

1- Why not giving them an overload bonus to all the things instead ? What are you affraid of ? It would be cool to be able to use stasises in combinaison with MWDs or MJDs to keep scrams away, that kind of things that would be way way easier with a broad overload bonus. Just an example.

2- What about their resistances ? (If I recall correctly they aren't T2 at the moment... Not even sure actually ^^')

3- What about the Bustard that goes 80m/sec? Usually caldari transports have higher capacity at the expense of lower agility and speed, but here the capacity is now the same so... are there any plans to reconsider their stats, especially agility and speed ?

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muhadin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2014-05-17 23:13:51 UTC
Make it so you cannot fit cargo expanders and just up the cargo capacity to 10k that way you can drop and scoop pos mods no problem.

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TAckermassacker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#89 - 2014-05-17 23:18:37 UTC
i would wish 1 more medslot for amarr and gallente and also the ability to fit a target spectrum breaker, there is no ship where you want this more.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-05-17 23:22:48 UTC
Very decent improvements, but that medium jump drive is of dubious practicality. Maybe you get caught at a bubble 100+km from the gate, but if there's a tackler guarding it you're still screwed since scrams prevent mjds. I wouldn't bother putting one on tbh.

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Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#91 - 2014-05-17 23:43:07 UTC
not so sure I like having to fit expanded cargo holds and rigs just to be able to maybe scoop starbase mods(or can I launch and scoop things from this fleet hanger?). Other then that great changes much better than the freighter changes. The mjd really makes a great addition.
Dehval
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2014-05-17 23:49:28 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
*snip*
The MMJD addition is an interesting middle ground to solving the problem of bubbles in nullsec, but it falls flat as a solution to get away from most gate camps. A single Light Interdictor will be able to bubble, decloak the DST, and warp scramble to disable the MMJD. Since you can't Cloak/MMJD (that was disabled a long time ago) it's an interesting curiosity, but not very effective.

*snip*

You actually can cloak -> MJD. Or at least it was working not 2 hours ago on SiSi when tested with a Battleship Module and an Improved Cloaking Device.

The difference being that unlike the cloak/MWD trick, which allows for either module to be activated "first", to cloak MJD you must activate cloak before hitting the MJD. Still has to happen in the same server tick, but the keypress order matters. End result is you spooling up the MJD while cloaked, jumping 100km forward, and being decloaked by the jumping process.
Mikhem
Taxisk Unlimited
#93 - 2014-05-18 00:00:44 UTC
I use deep space transports to carry custom offices to nullsec. Does this change mean that I cannot setup custom offices with deep space transports since structures cannot be launched from fleet hangar? Custom office gantry takes 7600 m3 space.

I just tried fleet hangar with my orca and mobile depot and got weird results. Mobile depot has no launch for self option in menu when depot is in fleet hangar. When I dropped mobile depot to space from fleet hangar it worked fine. Mobile depot was set to space. I was only able to scoop this mobile depot to cargo hold.

If structures cannot be placed with deep space transport then is this intended change in deep space transport role?

Mikhem

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Nicen Jehr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-05-18 00:10:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicen Jehr
Hi Fozzie, I've never used a fleet hangar, can you only store assembled ships in it? it looks like with transport ships 4 you'll have 50k * 1.20 = 60,000 m3, or enough to store two assembled frigates or one destroyer. The occator is 510 meters long and most frigates are less than 100m, I think it should be able to fit more than two frigs :)

edit: nvm, i thought this was the same as a Ship Maintenence Bay
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#95 - 2014-05-18 00:27:06 UTC
These changes look great for boosting the usefulness of these ships. Thank you

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

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Markus45
Doomheim
#96 - 2014-05-18 01:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus45
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Kyshonuba wrote:
It doesn't look like a good change for high sec haulers/industrialist

Rite now, before the change, only T2 deep space transports can haul valuable goods above 20.000 m³ .....and ii f you know how to fit them (hint: cloaky warp trick) you can even fly them through the (gank/) gates of niarja and uedama.

in high sec, PI/module/loot /ammo haulers have this kind of problem because the tech 1 industrials are gank targets as soon as they transport goods above 40.000.000 ISK. The only option for valauable stuff beyond the freighter will now be the blockade runner. ..which means 50% less cargo capacity. ( unless you wanna call a 400m³ courrier tengu an industrial ship)


I don't understand your post. After the change, DST will be able to haul 50.000m3 (+5% per skill) while having a ~80k EHP tank with a ~12 second align time. Seems like a buff to me.

Yep, not sure why high-seccers would complain about this. The DST will be almost ungankable.

[Impel, EHP High-Sec]

10MN Afterburner II

800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
2x 400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Armor EM Hardener II
Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

5000x Nanite Repair Paste


- The current Impel can hit ~110k EHP with max skills and no implants. ~125k EHP overheated.
- With a Slave set it can hit ~163k EHP. ~185k EHP overheated.
- With max boosts it can hit ~200k EHP. ~230k EHP overheated.
- The Impel aligns in 7.5 seconds with maxed Afterburner skill, max acceleration control and max agility skills.

- The new Impel has 80 extra PG and twice the overheat bonuses. The new Impel will thus easily hit ~250k EHP with the correct fitting, implants and links.
This guy below for instance would tank 131k against kinetic/thermal, versus 112k in the current version. With implants/links/double-overheat that's around ~275k HP in thermal/kinetic if not more.


[Impel, EHP High-Sec New]

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner

2x 800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
2x Shadow Serpentis Armor Thermic Hardener
Damage Control II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

5000x Nanite Repair Paste


A duel rep Impel could as well be a reasonable option, will have to plug the numbers on that.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#97 - 2014-05-18 01:35:52 UTC
The job of a deep space transport is to operate in areas which may not be completely safe. Their role is not to be able to run gatecamps or dodge fleets, that is what blockade runners are for. A deep space transport is about being able to operate with things like lone interceptors or stealth bombers around that would easily kill a T1 industrial. If you jump it into a well set up gatecamp, it should still die.

The fact that the warp scramblers are unaffected by warp core strength renders the mwd/mjd virtually pointless on these things. If they can warp out, they don't need the mwd/mjd, and when they can't warp out the mwd/mjd option is gone already anyways. Being able to mjd out of a bubble isn't much good when it only takes a single warp scram to kill it. This is a minor point but it's annoying given that the the mjd was given specifically to these hulls.

The fleet hangar is a problem. It's great in theory, big cargo that doesn't depend on fitting is wonderful. To not be able to do POS work from it utterly removes the ships best potential role.

Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
#98 - 2014-05-18 02:07:00 UTC
finally a way to rid myself of all this excess Thukker tribe LP Big smile

Be careful what you think, for your thoughts become your words. Be careful what you say, for your words become your actions. Be careful what you do, for your actions become your character. And character is everything. - author unknown

Markus45
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-05-18 02:10:34 UTC
Also please decrease spool time of MJD on the DST to 3 seconds.
This means frigates and sebo'd cruisers can catch you, of course the Nado, but not much else.
Derath Ellecon
Lotek Academy
#100 - 2014-05-18 02:13:20 UTC
Was the DST really used that much to online/offline POS's?

Whenever we setup or took down a pos (in WH space mind you not 0.0) the actual tower was setup or taken down with a BR. Once the tower was online and FF activated it really didn't matter what we used since everything else was deployed from inside the FF. I really don't see how this is all that horrible.