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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#181 - 2014-05-18 19:39:10 UTC
Jattila Vrek wrote:
New question (I feel like I'm a noob again):
if I press align, activate MJD and then get scrammed during spool-up, will it still spool up and MJD me away or does the scram prevent the MJD from working?

Edit: found my answer on Eve Uni wiki: If the MJD is charging and you are warp scrammed during the spool up, your jump will fail.


That being said, if the person that is MJD gets scrammed right when the MJD activates, a funny thing happens where they get scrammed for the cycle of the scram, from 100km away. Just happened yesterday when I was messing around with a corpmate. Quite funny to see a 100km scram animation coming from a crucifier.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.

PaulsAvatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2014-05-18 19:48:08 UTC
With changes to allow for structures, this will be a very nice change and cause some interesting gameplay.
+1
Jattila Vrek
Green Visstick High
#183 - 2014-05-18 19:48:43 UTC
Since I concluded MJD is useless on a DST, let me put some suggestions on the table to make it work:
- allow MJD to be used while cloaked, or
- make MJD immune to warp scrambling after activation (warp scrambler can only prevent you from activating it)

I would however favor bubble immunity.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#184 - 2014-05-18 20:15:47 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Tahna Rouspel wrote:

Does MJD work if you get scrambled but have warp core stabilizers?


It does not. The basic rule of thumb is that MJDs work just like MWDs in this regard.


It should :(.
People should work to get at the contents. In its current state you can escape one tackle ship easily enough, with the changes even with an MJD you will not be able to. eg, when you jump in to a wh now.. as single cloaky tackler isn't going to stop unless he has scrams, after the change.. the will be no escaping, even if you jump back through the wh.
What about some drones ?

... What next ??

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#185 - 2014-05-18 20:52:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're definitely going to deal with the issues surrounding deploying and scooping of structures, either by changing the way fleet hangars interact with structures in space or by increasing the cargo holds to 4k so that you can get above 8k with expanders. Once I do a bit more investigation into that first option we'll update you guys with the progress.

Any thoughts on bubble immunity? It would be a nice complement to BR's ability to warp cloaked. You could increase their mass to compensate.


Increasing mass screws over WH's. And bubble immunity is a terrible mechanic.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

G's Biatch
Four Brothers United
#186 - 2014-05-18 20:53:56 UTC
Can we fill the Fleet Hanger and place these ships in SMA's in cap ships, or will the Ammo only rule still apply?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#187 - 2014-05-18 21:34:33 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're definitely going to deal with the issues surrounding deploying and scooping of structures, either by changing the way fleet hangars interact with structures in space or by increasing the cargo holds to 4k so that you can get above 8k with expanders. Once I do a bit more investigation into that first option we'll update you guys with the progress.

Any thoughts on bubble immunity? It would be a nice complement to BR's ability to warp cloaked. You could increase their mass to compensate.


Increasing mass screws over WH's. And bubble immunity is a terrible mechanic.

Increase its inertia modifier then.
And no it isn't if it's applied on a ship with weaknesses to balance it out. Interceptors have next to no tank. T3s lose the potential benefits of the other propulsion subsystems and they get one less low slot.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#188 - 2014-05-18 23:14:44 UTC
This shipclass makes it now possible to launder even battleship sized ships (50k packaged size) from ganked freighters without taking any risks (only the laundering alt in a shuttle goes suspect) and with a far lower investment than an Orca (40k fleet hangar).

Is this intended?

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2014-05-18 23:26:08 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
This shipclass makes it now possible to launder even battleship sized ships (50k packaged size) from ganked freighters without taking any risks (only the laundering alt in a shuttle goes suspect) and with a far lower investment than an Orca (40k fleet hangar).

Is this intended?

If there's no risk to the DST because of the shuttle alt then there's not really any risk to another freighter doing so.
Nobody's going to set up a counter-gank in the time you have your freighter looting the wreck.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#190 - 2014-05-19 00:05:55 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
This shipclass makes it now possible to launder even battleship sized ships (50k packaged size) from ganked freighters without taking any risks (only the laundering alt in a shuttle goes suspect) and with a far lower investment than an Orca (40k fleet hangar).

Is this intended?

If there's no risk to the DST because of the shuttle alt then there's not really any risk to another freighter doing so.
Nobody's going to set up a counter-gank in the time you have your freighter looting the wreck.

Are you sure, you understand what I'm talking about? Currently it works like this:

An alt in a shuttle takes stuff out of a wreck of a ganked freighter and puts it in the fleet hangar of an Orca (40k max size per item due to fleet hangar size). Shuttle alt goes suspect, Orca does *not*. With a fully loaded freighter wreck, you can just get another freighter which takes the loot out of the fleet hangar of the Orca and which also does *not* go suspect. Everything completely without risks, because "nobody's going to set up a counter-gank in the time", just as you said and just like gankers like it.

The problem with this is, that you can't risklessly take out anything that's bigger than 40k size a piece. "Unfortunately" that also includes battleship sized ships like Marauders or Black Ops which have 50k packaged size. Currently you have to put a freighter or Orca at risk in order to loot them because they will have to go suspect. With the new 50k fleet hangar of the DST you suddenly can also launder them without any risk using the above technique because it has exactly the right size.

My proposal would be: make the fleet hangar slightly smaller and increase the size of the regular hangar in return. This would also solve the issues surrounding deploying and scooping of structures.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2014-05-19 01:40:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're definitely going to deal with the issues surrounding deploying and scooping of structures, either by changing the way fleet hangars interact with structures in space or by increasing the cargo holds to 4k so that you can get above 8k with expanders. Once I do a bit more investigation into that first option we'll update you guys with the progress.


If you have to resort to this, please bump the cargo to 8k and penalize the fleet hangar instead. Forcing the DSTs to max out cargo expanders to do pos work basically eliminates the reason to use one.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#192 - 2014-05-19 02:09:07 UTC
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Currently you have to put a freighter or Orca at risk in order to loot them because they will have to go suspect.

Or you align with a freighter, open the ganked wreck, select the station, click loot all, click warp within the same second and warp off within the same tick. Even if someone had you targeted, they wouldn't be able to scram you because the server already has you in warp when the other gets the suspect flag on his client. That's the way I used when I fliped my ore back into my hauler with can flippers on me to pop my ship. Works flawlessly. Your risk argument is already voided by current mechanics.
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#193 - 2014-05-19 03:19:22 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Currently you have to put a freighter or Orca at risk in order to loot them because they will have to go suspect.

Or you align with a freighter, open the ganked wreck, select the station, click loot all, click warp within the same second and warp off within the same tick. Even if someone had you targeted, they wouldn't be able to scram you because the server already has you in warp when the other gets the suspect flag on his client. That's the way I used when I fliped my ore back into my hauler with can flippers on me to pop my ship. Works flawlessly. Your risk argument is already voided by current mechanics.

That also works the other way around: pre-lock the freighter, set safety to green and start hammering the F-key where your scrambler is way before it goes suspect. It's not nearly as safe as you think it is.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !

Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#194 - 2014-05-19 07:16:19 UTC
Change that velocity bonus to target breaker effectiveness. Then the damn ships will actually be useable.
Luscius Uta
#195 - 2014-05-19 07:38:06 UTC
I think that a bonus to ECM Burst strength/range/duration would be better and more likely to let you escape a dangerous situation than Overheat bonus.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#196 - 2014-05-19 07:45:33 UTC
Thanks for this rebalance, looking very much forward to getting my first DST <3
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#197 - 2014-05-19 08:05:14 UTC
The MMJD bonus is a bit odd, given that almost the only time that you'd need it is when you're scrambled. But I can see it helping in the case of bump tackle.

I suppose it would also let you get out of an empty bubble more quickly, but these are highsec ships really, BRs are the real DSTs.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#198 - 2014-05-19 09:44:33 UTC
I don't understand, why the cargo holds are all brought back to the same size, why not leave the relative size difference between the ships.


Quick look leaves gives me the impression the difference between the Bustard and the Mastodon will end in the Bustard being ignored.

the Mastodon will align faster, fly faster with the same cargo space, an extra low slot against a mid slot, lower signature.

in return the Bustard gets 300 more shield hit points while 500 less armor some extra structure. little more capacity and they trade cpu and Powergrid.

Although reasonable in some situations, with transports I consider faster aligning, traveling, lower signature, and the extra lowslot superior to every plus the Bustard has.


Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#199 - 2014-05-19 10:58:53 UTC
Fubeca wrote:
While this looks interesting for getting in and out of trouble, the Fleet Hangar change really limits the DST in useful things like POS work. With a cargo hold of 1000 - 3000, you cant even scoop or launch a large tower, or most pos mods. To make it work, you would need to make it capable of launching items from the fleet hangar as well as scoop to the fleet hangar.

For POS work in null sec, orcas arent an option for getting around, and BRs are just too small even after your proposed buff. Now the only real option is a rorqual or JF which takes setting up a POS out of the picture for the average player.



maybe that's the intent


Komi Toran
Perkone
Caldari State
#200 - 2014-05-19 12:18:31 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
an extra low slot against a mid slot

And that's where the Bustard wins. P

From what I can see, CCP has made an effective armored truck. BRs use stealth and agility to reach their destination, while DSTs use their tank. With the overwhelming bulk of their cargo locked in the Fleet Hangar and a tiny cargo hold, the low slots are just not that important to a shield-tanked DST. The Bustard is a purer incarnation of the concept, while the Mastadon is a compromise. They're going to appeal to different people, and that's good.