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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

First post First post
Author
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#681 - 2011-11-14 22:28:55 UTC
I quote myself once more :)

Hamox wrote:

Patience, give them two or three more years, they just started to work on it.



Seriously, a feedback from Tallest or CCP would be very welcome.
I thought they want to improve their relationship with their customers?
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#682 - 2011-11-14 22:30:17 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
A Sleipnir rips a dual rep brutix/Astarte apart without rising one eyebrow :p 1100 dps and 1k+ dps tank at 35km range combined with superior speed and a neutralizer ....... now let's have a look at that brutix/Astarte.............

There is a reason why the sleipnir is the most used ship in alliance tournament and the brutix/Astarte not :p
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#683 - 2011-11-14 22:39:04 UTC
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Firstly lets ACTUALLY look at the important change....Fitting Requirements and Cap usage

I don't ever recall making the complaint I couldn't fit a hybrid ship properly. How is this the most important change?

Cunane Jeran wrote:
PvE:

Again, hybrids were passable in PvE, and again, I don't recall making this complaint. Have you actually read this thread?

Cunane Jeran wrote:
PvP Rails are now viable....I'm sure we'll be seeing more Rails appearing in PvP.


I'm not about to make any claim I am clairvoyant, but I can tell you this: current changes to hybrids are not enough to make ME want to use them. If I don't want to use them, my money is on many other pilots not wanting to use them either. This has been stated again and again here. Please read it.

Cunane Jeran wrote:
But in all seriousness what can you do?

How about:

  • pay attention to this thread?
  • break the antiquated notion that minmatar no longer need to be the fastest ships?
  • revamp hybrid ammo in the same manner projectile ammo was?
  • give hybrids a REASON to be used? Let them compete with lasers/projectiles at a fundamental level?
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#684 - 2011-11-14 22:45:45 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
A Sleipnir rips a dual rep Astarte apart without rising one eyebrow :p 1100 dps and 1k+ dps tank at 35km range combined with superior speed and a neutralizer ....... now let's have a look at that Astarte.............

There is a reason why the sleipnir is the most used ship in alliance tournament and the Astarte not :p


Fixed.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#685 - 2011-11-14 22:49:37 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Magosian wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
A Sleipnir rips a dual rep Astarte apart without rising one eyebrow :p 1100 dps and 1k+ dps tank at 35km range combined with superior speed and a neutralizer ....... now let's have a look at that Astarte.............

There is a reason why the sleipnir is the most used ship in alliance tournament and the Astarte not :p


Fixed.



ty! My friend "edit" fixed that for me :) I'm getting old :p

If i want the Astarte pilot to no more use gallente shps i would kill it with a hugin :p long painfull death
Cunane Jeran
#686 - 2011-11-14 22:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cunane Jeran
Magosian wrote:
I don't ever recall making the complaint I couldn't fit a hybrid ship properly. How is this the most important change?


Because it offers a huge boost to tracking/damage/survival

Magosian wrote:

Again, hybrids were passable in PvE, and again, I don't recall making this complaint. Have you actually read this thread?


You didn't others have. This isn't all about you princess.

Magosian wrote:
I'm not about to make any claim I am clairvoyant, but I can tell you this: current changes to hybrids are not enough to make ME want to use them. If I don't want to use them, my money is on many other pilots not wanting to use them either. This has been stated again and again here. Please read it.


Gallente now have more options than Blasters and Drone boats with projectiles, while Caldari rail boats have been lacking, they have now become a ton more viable.

Magosian wrote:

How about:

  • pay attention to this thread?
  • break the antiquated notion that minmatar no longer need to be the fastest ships?
  • revamp hybrid ammo in the same manner projectile ammo was?
  • give hybrids a REASON to be used? Let them compete with lasers/projectiles at a fundamental level?


1) I have been and more so than you, as apparently you can only see the negative whining posts
2) Minmatar don't have to be but is it practical to change and nerf stats of Minmatar ships to make them slower? Or are you suggesting we make all Gallente faster. A Deimos with more speed and agility than a Vaga? Pro Balance. You also have neglected Caldari boats with that idea.
3) Does it really need to be changed? The damage is decent as it is for Antimatter, while we are locked into Thermal/Kin if you look at BOTH armour and shields at the same time, Thermal is the biggest joint hole.
4) Awesome ranged potential, Awesome short range potential, work fantastically well in small gangs. Plenty of reasons to use them.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#687 - 2011-11-14 22:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
Cunane Jeran wrote:

1.
2.
3.
4.
....... ?????

.


In all honest, you want to troll us ? Last time i've seen a gallente ship in a small gang is 300 millenia ago.

Currently there are only 2 ships used in small gangs

a) hurricane
b) drake

some fillers like hugin, claymore, dictor

if you need proof look at ronin, pure madness, gentlemen's agreement, fidelas constans killboard.
Me is not allowed to link a board... google should help

I heared of some insane ppl, using 20 legions +1 myrm.

I'm not that interested in getting gallente buffed because i spent nearly 2 years to get every aspect (incl mindlinks) of my sleipnir maxed out but i'm still a gallente at heart and of the opinion if devs touch something it should be done correctly or not at all. some half hearted touching only hurts feelings and takes away dev time.
Julius Foederatus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#688 - 2011-11-14 23:07:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Julius Foederatus
Cunane Jeran wrote:

2) Minmatar don't have to be but is it practical to change and nerf stats of Minmatar ships to make them slower? Or are you suggesting we make all Gallente faster. A Deimos with more speed and agility than a Vaga? Pro Balance. You also have neglected Caldari boats with that idea.


Who said anything about making the Deimos faster than a vaga? It should definitely be faster than a Hurricane though, even if its armor tanked, otherwise wtf is the point of it. Fact is without speed blaster ships are at the mercy of everything else. Claiming otherwise means you haven't flown one in a long time.

Quote:

4) Awesome ranged potential, Awesome short range potential, work fantastically well in small gangs. Plenty of reasons to use them.


And awesome short range potential? Maybe if you ever actually get in range after burning your MWD for 3 min and hoping you don't get blown out of the sky or the other guy (probably in a minmatar ship) loses tackle. If you're by yourself, good luck applying that "awesome short range potential." I won't even go into the small gang comment, all I'll say is that you should go into low sec and count how many gangs you see that have majority or even a significant portion of Gallente dps dealers. The changes have not fundamentally altered the balance of the guns and for those of you who can't see it now, it will become very clear when these changes go live. Then we'll have to lobby another 3 or 4 years to get CCP to even look at them.

Edit: did some EFT checking for rails, dps wise they actually fare pretty well versus the other gun types here, at least on paper. We'll have to see how they perform later. Everything about blasters is still true though.
X Gallentius
Easy Eight
#689 - 2011-11-14 23:15:47 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
From the perspective of a small gang, small ship, T1/empire faction Gallente pilot:

Gallente frigs are going to do very well in the next update. The comet is going to look very ugly to the naked eye, but it will perform extremely well in the field. These ships were already well balanced versus other empire faction frigs, now they get a little extra something that will put them over the top.

Armor tanked Exeqeror Navy Issue(ENI) at 2k m/s with boosts to hybrids is going to be really fun to fly. VNI will be fun too.

Catalyst vs. Thrasher: 266 vs 268 m/s baseline speed? Damn near even. Good enough for me. One prop mod in the low and Cat is faster. After years of getting kited and nueted by Thrasher pilots, now I'm only going to get nueted. :D

Proposed Thorax (180) vs Rupture(192): Two overdrive injectors on a Thorax makes it go about as fast as two nanofibers on a Rupture. With the other turret boosts... this is good enough for me for now. I think I'm going to enjoy flying the Thorax again.

Brutix (155) vs. Cyclone(165): Same deal. Two overdrive injectors on a Brutix is about as fast as two nanofibers on a Cyclone. This class of ship is largely obsolete, however.

Megathron(115) vs Tempest(120): Same deal.

Note: Myrm and Hyperion speed should have been boosted as well, but whatever...

Gallente hulls progressively get worse as size increases, but the "break even" point with Minmatar is now at about Tier 1 BC where before it was at the Velator.

Hoping CCP fixes range bonus to Null (which any persom passing 7th grade algebra can figure out), until then I'm waiting for a chance to do "live fire" tests on Tranquility.

BTW, I completely understand the frustration of armor tanked blaster pilots wanting to travel long distances to get kills... it ain't gonna happen....
Cunane Jeran
#690 - 2011-11-14 23:16:56 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:

In all honest, you want to troll us ? Last time i've seen a gallente ship in a small gang is 300 millenia ago.

Currently there are only 2 ships used in small gangs

a) hurricane
b) drake

some fillers like hugin, claymore, dictor

for proof:

http://pure-madness.eu/0os827nq/


A sample size of 214 ships. Pro proof. Your proof also shows no one uses Amarr either.

Yes they aren't hugely popular, but they work and they work well in unison with other ships in a mixed gang.

The Drake and Cane are more popular I'd put that down to BC's being to go to ship for roaming/small gangs, and the Myrm not doing well in gangs, mainly due to its bonuses and its heavy drone use while the Brutix suffers from being a tier 1. You don't see many Ferox/Cyclones/Prophecys in gangs either.

Deimos has always had the issue of survivability compared to the Vaga and Zealot mainly due to a lack of grid, while the Ishtar again, doesn't make for a good gang ship. The Thorax is a excellent cheap ship and I've not seen many mixed gangs without one.

the Enyo/Ishkur make a decent showing, the Taranis is deadly and sees a lot of use.

Granted the Commandships are utter crap and aren't seen at all in gangs around my area.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#691 - 2011-11-14 23:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
X Gallentius wrote:
Long good post.



Thanks for this long really good post. Yes you are correct!
Frigates will perform great! Small blaster ships are fast and dish out good dps with a fair amount of utility and a high survival rate. bc and larger size hulls i still got my concerns because of neutralizers. We'll see.

One last note which irks me:
After the thrasher buff frigs will die like flies and i would prefer this tiny beautiful ship :p


P.S.: I like my Cyclone :( Do not say this ship sucks, that hurts my feelings
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#692 - 2011-11-14 23:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
Cunane Jeran wrote:


A sample size of 214 ships. Pro proof. Your proof also shows no one uses Amarr either.

Yes they aren't hugely popular, but they work and they work well in unison with other ships in a mixed gang.

The Drake and Cane are more popular I'd put that down to BC's being to go to ship for roaming/small gangs, and the Myrm not doing well in gangs, mainly due to its bonuses and its heavy drone use while the Brutix suffers from being a tier 1. You don't see many Ferox/Cyclones/Prophecys in gangs either.

Deimos has always had the issue of survivability compared to the Vaga and Zealot mainly due to a lack of grid, while the Ishtar again, doesn't make for a good gang ship. The Thorax is a excellent cheap ship and I've not seen many mixed gangs without one.

the Enyo/Ishkur make a decent showing, the Taranis is deadly and sees a lot of use.

Granted the Commandships are utter crap and aren't seen at all in gangs around my area.


Deimos needs to be a viable rail platform capable of matching an AC Cane's DPS. a Deimos needs to comfortably fit a full rack of 250mm's while having a decent tank. of course, i wish theyd just delete blasters. basically, there needs to be a consensus that this hybrid "buff" did absolutely nothing for ships that were already gimped.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#693 - 2011-11-14 23:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: thoth rothschild
I think the winter expansion might hurt the gallente faction more than it helps.
ishkur, enyo, ares, taranis will have a hard time to compete with the new destroyers, but that might bring a new star to the sky.... the catalyst.

Well we all bring a hughe pile of emotions to this discussion :> I better stay out of here and be happy about what i get. i love the engine trails, the nebula, the tech 2 ganglinks, my ship spinning :D thank ccp that makes me feel good :)
brb polishing my stack of thrashers :>



P.S.: The Eos is a big pile of useless trash. a tritanium bar is more useful !
The only ship in space with 4 ! Boni which are ALL entirely useless, unless you want to kill an incursion fleet with some blackbirds ;)
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#694 - 2011-11-14 23:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Because it offers a huge boost to tracking\damage\survival

How does 5% tracking, 10% damage and ?% "survival" increases compete with a kiting minmatar ship that will always be faster than you? How? I don't even know what "survival" means in this case but I'll draw a rather weak conclusion you're talking about speed and agility buffs.

Before the change, I could fit a dual rep Brut with electrons. After the change, I can do the same thing except with ions. You understand the dps change is in the teens, right...? ANd in EITHER case, I am slower than a cyclone/cane/proph/harb, and I still can't compete with a buffered drake. So I can kill a Ferox, unless he's got autos and a neut (which anyone with half a brain is going to do), so bascially I am still in last place.

Cunane Jeran wrote:
You didn't others have. This isn't all about you princess.

Show me one person in this thread, ONE, who complained about hybrid ineffectiveness in PVE.

Cunane Jeran wrote:
Gallente now have more options than Blasters and Drone boats with projectiles

What does this have to do with fixing hybrids? What does this have to do with anything?

1) I have been and more so than you, as apparently you can only see the negative whining posts

Yes, you clearly have voiced your opinion in here lots of times, if by "lots of times," I really mean "not at all." I have been quite supportive of Tallest's announcement and evidence of CCP willing to do something. All I'm saying is that it's not enough. There's nothing you can say to change that disposition, so I'm not even sure why you bother, especially with such rude demeanor.

2) Minmatar don't have to be but is it practical to change and nerf stats of Minmatar ships to make them slower? Or are you suggesting we make all Gallente faster.

To a large degree. One or the other.

A Deimos with more speed and agility than a Vaga?

No. Don't put words in my mouth; I never said that. Besides, that's not even a fair comparison, nor would it be conventionally "possible," since Vagas get a ship bonus to speed. But back to the question, more in line and appropriate with the thread at hand: should a Deimos be faster than a Muninn? ABSOLUTELY!

You also have neglected Caldari boats with that idea.

Yes I did. You may not have noticed, but this is a Hybrid Turret Balancing Feedback thread, not a Caldari Ships Need Some Serious Help thread. If a Caldari-favoring pilot wants to voice his opinion on how to improve his hybrid game, that's his perogative, not mine.

3) Does it really need to be changed? The damage is decent as it is for Antimatter, while we are locked into Thermal/Kin if you look at BOTH armour and shields at the same time, Thermal is the biggest joint hole.

"decent" isn't good enough when "range" is "crap" and "speed" is "slower." So hybrids do good thermal. So what? So do autos with RF phased plasma. So do lasers with scorch/conflag. So why exactly would I want to use a blaster when I can get more range with pulses and autos? Having just said this, are you still not understanding the complaint???

4) Awesome ranged potential, Awesome short range potential, work fantastically well in small gangs. Plenty of reasons to use them.

Again, a rather bold statement without the ability to predict the future. All I can say is, hybrids are still lackluster. Plenty of other people agree; again, it's all in post #548. And if I were to discount what I believe to be the generally-accepted opinion of an overwhelming majority of hybrid users, all I really need to do is ask myself is if the current changes intice me to use hybrids on a regular basis. Right now, the answer is no, which in my eyes, makes these changes a failure.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#695 - 2011-11-14 23:44:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Talos can't fit more than 4x 425mm RG II - excellent downgrade for 350's if you want to fit 8 ...

Blasters: full rack of neutrons no fitting issues with shield tank, armor tank = useless

If you want it to spit something interesting: 1 or 2 te's everything else in lows is 3 or 4 mfs

Blasters on mega (regular) armor tank/buffer 2mfs: better dmg but not enough, again to make those spit something interesting is shield fit and full lows of dmg mods and then becomes serious business (for logis too)

EDIT: because I can

The so much need for more lows with dmg mods, knowing gallente are supposed armor tanks and have crapy tank with shield fits, clearly shows the boost dmg needed on top of what is already on sisi is the amount you add by 2 extra mfs on top of 2 already on regular Mega fit (Rof + dmg) but then if you keep armor tanking you leave 2 te's and then you play in your base range gun engagement, witch is crapy.

There's no doubt they will be slightly better but still the last choice I'll pick since everything else will be better for overall situations and not just the overkilled ship 5 webs 3scrams on it...
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#696 - 2011-11-14 23:53:00 UTC
I know I'm replying myself but I wonder if we ever will get an answer from CCP or Tallest in this thread? I'm feeling a bit ignored and many players have concernes about the changes.
Just one sentence from CCP like "Hey, we know about your concerns, lets try this changes and if they are not good enough we will continue our work, we promise!"

With no answer from Tallest or CCP in this thread they just make the whole topic ridiculous and they leave diapointed customers behind.
Is this the sort of improved cooperation with your user base?

Come on, give us an answer, we deserved it after more than 700 posts in this thread!
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#697 - 2011-11-15 00:01:23 UTC
Add's Cunane Jeran to the ignore list.


The active tanking blaster boats are still made of fail. Eos/Myrmidon still lacking drones. *sigh*

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Cunane Jeran
#698 - 2011-11-15 00:04:56 UTC
I'm including the ships instead of just the "pure" hybrid stats because at the end of the day without the ships included all you have is a gun, and last time I checked a gun can't fly. There is no point in holding them separate to the ships and bonuses they'll never ever be a situation where they'll be apart.

The ships, and bonuses need to be considered in ALL arguments about balance. Hence why all comments include them.

Personally I've been using hybrids for the last 3 years with no complaints, and yes I can also use t2 projectiles and lasers. I've always preferred hybrids and so that's what I use, going from how they perform on Tranq right now, these changes in my eyes have gone beyond what was needed to bring them into line.

Yes they can go further but then your pushing into Power creep territory, Lasers would then need looking at and the cycle begins anew.

thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#699 - 2011-11-15 00:10:09 UTC
I must resist.... I must not hit reply...... argl Roll
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#700 - 2011-11-15 00:13:14 UTC
Cunane Jeran wrote:
Personally I've been using hybrids for the last 3 years with no complaints, and yes I can also use t2 projectiles and lasers. I've always preferred hybrids and so that's what I use...


Would you please share the secret with me?
Why do you prefer Hybrids over AC when AC has more range and most of the time by far more damage, no cap usage and are flexible regarding damage type?
Please explain it to me so I do understand. I then will stop complaining about hybrids and start using it.
I will also stop to complain about the idea to have the short range guy be slower than the long range guy...