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A Sleipnir rips a dual rep brutix/Astarte apart without rising one eyebrow :p 1100 dps and 1k+ dps tank at 35km range combined with superior speed and a neutralizer ....... now let's have a look at that brutix/Astarte.............

There is a reason why the sleipnir is the most used ship in alliance tournament and the brutix/Astarte not :p

Fixed.

Because it offers a huge boost to tracking/damage/survival



You didn't others have. This isn't all about you princess.



Gallente now have more options than Blasters and Drone boats with projectiles, while Caldari rail boats have been lacking, they have now become a ton more viable.



1) I have been and more so than you, as apparently you can only see the negative whining posts
2) Minmatar don't have to be but is it practical to change and nerf stats of Minmatar ships to make them slower? Or are you suggesting we make all Gallente faster. A Deimos with more speed and agility than a Vaga? Pro Balance. You also have neglected Caldari boats with that idea.
3) Does it really need to be changed? The damage is decent as it is for Antimatter, while we are locked into Thermal/Kin if you look at BOTH armour and shields at the same time, Thermal is the biggest joint hole.
4) Awesome ranged potential, Awesome short range potential, work fantastically well in small gangs. Plenty of reasons to use them.

Who said anything about making the Deimos faster than a vaga? It should definitely be faster than a Hurricane though, even if its armor tanked, otherwise wtf is the point of it. Fact is without speed blaster ships are at the mercy of everything else. Claiming otherwise means you haven't flown one in a long time.



And awesome short range potential? Maybe if you ever actually get in range after burning your MWD for 3 min and hoping you don't get blown out of the sky or the other guy (probably in a minmatar ship) loses tackle. If you're by yourself, good luck applying that "awesome short range potential." I won't even go into the small gang comment, all I'll say is that you should go into low sec and count how many gangs you see that have majority or even a significant portion of Gallente dps dealers. The changes have not fundamentally altered the balance of the guns and for those of you who can't see it now, it will become very clear when these changes go live. Then we'll have to lobby another 3 or 4 years to get CCP to even look at them.

Edit: did some EFT checking for rails, dps wise they actually fare pretty well versus the other gun types here, at least on paper. We'll have to see how they perform later. Everything about blasters is still true though.

A sample size of 214 ships. Pro proof. Your proof also shows no one uses Amarr either.

Yes they aren't hugely popular, but they work and they work well in unison with other ships in a mixed gang.

The Drake and Cane are more popular I'd put that down to BC's being to go to ship for roaming/small gangs, and the Myrm not doing well in gangs, mainly due to its bonuses and its heavy drone use while the Brutix suffers from being a tier 1. You don't see many Ferox/Cyclones/Prophecys in gangs either.

Deimos has always had the issue of survivability compared to the Vaga and Zealot mainly due to a lack of grid, while the Ishtar again, doesn't make for a good gang ship. The Thorax is a excellent cheap ship and I've not seen many mixed gangs without one.

the Enyo/Ishkur make a decent showing, the Taranis is deadly and sees a lot of use.

Granted the Commandships are utter crap and aren't seen at all in gangs around my area.

Deimos needs to be a viable rail platform capable of matching an AC Cane's DPS. a Deimos needs to comfortably fit a full rack of 250mm's while having a decent tank. of course, i wish theyd just delete blasters. basically, there needs to be a consensus that this hybrid "buff" did absolutely nothing for ships that were already gimped.

How does 5% tracking, 10% damage and ?% "survival" increases compete with a kiting minmatar ship that will always be faster than you? How? I don't even know what "survival" means in this case but I'll draw a rather weak conclusion you're talking about speed and agility buffs.

Before the change, I could fit a dual rep Brut with electrons. After the change, I can do the same thing except with ions. You understand the dps change is in the teens, right...? ANd in EITHER case, I am slower than a cyclone/cane/proph/harb, and I still can't compete with a buffered drake. So I can kill a Ferox, unless he's got autos and a neut (which anyone with half a brain is going to do), so bascially I am still in last place.


Show me one person in this thread, ONE, who complained about hybrid ineffectiveness in PVE.


What does this have to do with fixing hybrids? What does this have to do with anything?

1) I have been and more so than you, as apparently you can only see the negative whining posts

Yes, you clearly have voiced your opinion in here lots of times, if by "lots of times," I really mean "not at all." I have been quite supportive of Tallest's announcement and evidence of CCP willing to do something. All I'm saying is that it's not enough. There's nothing you can say to change that disposition, so I'm not even sure why you bother, especially with such rude demeanor.

2) Minmatar don't have to be but is it practical to change and nerf stats of Minmatar ships to make them slower? Or are you suggesting we make all Gallente faster.

To a large degree. One or the other.

A Deimos with more speed and agility than a Vaga?

No. Don't put words in my mouth; I never said that. Besides, that's not even a fair comparison, nor would it be conventionally "possible," since Vagas get a ship bonus to speed. But back to the question, more in line and appropriate with the thread at hand: should a Deimos be faster than a Muninn? ABSOLUTELY!

You also have neglected Caldari boats with that idea.

Yes I did. You may not have noticed, but this is a Hybrid Turret Balancing Feedback thread, not a Caldari Ships Need Some Serious Help thread. If a Caldari-favoring pilot wants to voice his opinion on how to improve his hybrid game, that's his perogative, not mine.

3) Does it really need to be changed? The damage is decent as it is for Antimatter, while we are locked into Thermal/Kin if you look at BOTH armour and shields at the same time, Thermal is the biggest joint hole.

"decent" isn't good enough when "range" is "crap" and "speed" is "slower." So hybrids do good thermal. So what? So do autos with RF phased plasma. So do lasers with scorch/conflag. So why exactly would I want to use a blaster when I can get more range with pulses and autos? Having just said this, are you still not understanding the complaint???

4) Awesome ranged potential, Awesome short range potential, work fantastically well in small gangs. Plenty of reasons to use them.

Again, a rather bold statement without the ability to predict the future. All I can say is, hybrids are still lackluster. Plenty of other people agree; again, it's all in post #548. And if I were to discount what I believe to be the generally-accepted opinion of an overwhelming majority of hybrid users, all I really need to do is ask myself is if the current changes intice me to use hybrids on a regular basis. Right now, the answer is no, which in my eyes, makes these changes a failure.

I know I'm replying myself but I wonder if we ever will get an answer from CCP or Tallest in this thread? I'm feeling a bit ignored and many players have concernes about the changes.
Just one sentence from CCP like "Hey, we know about your concerns, lets try this changes and if they are not good enough we will continue our work, we promise!"

With no answer from Tallest or CCP in this thread they just make the whole topic ridiculous and they leave diapointed customers behind.
Is this the sort of improved cooperation with your user base?

Come on, give us an answer, we deserved it after more than 700 posts in this thread!

I'm including the ships instead of just the "pure" hybrid stats because at the end of the day without the ships included all you have is a gun, and last time I checked a gun can't fly. There is no point in holding them separate to the ships and bonuses they'll never ever be a situation where they'll be apart.

The ships, and bonuses need to be considered in ALL arguments about balance. Hence why all comments include them.

Personally I've been using hybrids for the last 3 years with no complaints, and yes I can also use t2 projectiles and lasers. I've always preferred hybrids and so that's what I use, going from how they perform on Tranq right now, these changes in my eyes have gone beyond what was needed to bring them into line.

Yes they can go further but then your pushing into Power creep territory, Lasers would then need looking at and the cycle begins anew.

Would you please share the secret with me?
Why do you prefer Hybrids over AC when AC has more range and most of the time by far more damage, no cap usage and are flexible regarding damage type?
Please explain it to me so I do understand. I then will stop complaining about hybrids and start using it.
I will also stop to complain about the idea to have the short range guy be slower than the long range guy...