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A petition to CCP Greyscale on Sentry Mechanics (Please Read)

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Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#501 - 2012-08-15 03:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bommel McMurdoc
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Why would Bob, the uninvolved 3rd party, get to retaliate against the person who stole from you?


umm, because you commited a crime? same as any crime. Why am I even bothering to argue with stupid no-lifers. Still waiting to hear how additional risk "breaks" can flipping.


You committed a tort against an individual. If it were a crime, you'd lose Sec Status and be CONCORDed.

A Tort in EVE means that the wronged individual has the option to cause harm to to the offender as recompense for the offense.

A specific example, 1v1s are done.



(filled with more sarcasm than Rodney Dangerfield on the strip) riiiiiiight, can flipper is ALWAYS looking for 1v1 fights.

I stopped trying to "punish" those can flippers after the 3rd attempt to take em on 1v1 with my pvp ship. the last 3 times I did that, it turned into 3-4-5 v 1. I sure showed em didn't i?

You got it pipa, the victim should punish the offender. Look, in a perfect world the can flipper would actually fight the victim when he/she (the victim) is willing to fight. But this is not a perfect society, not in the least. Honor means nothing, in EvE it's a figment of the imagination just like the game itself. Honor by the games definition is " HAY BRO'S! I"M GONNA NEED ANOTHER JAR TO COLLECT THESE TEARS! AND POST IT ON THE IT'NETS!"
Pipa Porto
#502 - 2012-08-15 04:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Bommel McMurdoc wrote:
(filled with more sarcasm than Rodney Dangerfield on the strip) riiiiiiight, can flipper is ALWAYS looking for 1v1 fights.

I stopped trying to "punish" those can flippers after the 3rd attempt to take em on 1v1 with my pvp ship. the last 3 times I did that, it turned into 3-4-5 v 1. I sure showed em didn't i?

You got it pipa, the victim should punish the offender. Look, in a perfect world the can flipper would actually fight the victim when he/she (the victim) is willing to fight. But this is not a perfect society, not in the least. Honor means nothing, in EvE it's a figment of the imagination just like the game itself. Honor by the games definition is " HAY BRO'S! I"M GONNA NEED ANOTHER JAR TO COLLECT THESE TEARS! AND POST IT ON THE IT'NETS!"


The only way the victim can be shot by more than 1 Flipper is if you shot at them first. If they bring Logi, grab your corp-mates, and tackle those Logi (they're expensive, and can't shoot back that well, so they're pretty easy to keep tackled). If they bring DPS ships, ignore them until you've killed off everything else. They can't shoot you unless you shoot them.

If the Victim can catch the can flipper, the victim can force the fight. (A Cloaked Stealth Bomber works well for that.) A Can flipper can never force the fight.

I'm not arguing anything about e-honor.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#503 - 2012-08-15 04:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Pipa Porto wrote:
Stealing is not a crime in EVE.



A crime isn't how you chose to define it, sorry.

Can flippers are theives and theives are people who commit crimes.Stealing has always been considered a crime though the history of humanity. That is why you are flagged to everyone once you steal, just like a criminal would be punishable by anyone if they stole. To think only the person who you stole from should be retaliate against you is both stupid and unrealistic. I advise you to learn the definitions of "crime" and "broken" and come back when you have a better argument.

Still waiting to hear how increased risk to can flippers "breaks" can flipping.

nvm, i'll make a thread and ask.
Pipa Porto
#504 - 2012-08-15 04:36:26 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Stealing is not a crime in EVE.



A crime isn't how you chose to define it, sorry.

Can flippers are theives and theives are people who commit crimes.Stealing has always been considered a crime though the history of humanity. That is why you are flagged to everyone once you steal, just like a criminal would be punishable by anyone if they stole. To think only the person who you stole from should be retaliate against you is both stupid and unrealistic. I advise you to learn the definitions of "crime" and "broken" and come back when you have a better argument.

Still waiting to hear how increased risk to can flippers "breaks" can flipping.


In the Real World, a Crime is something that the Police (well, Criminal Justice System) punish you for. A tort is a private matter that the involved parties settle (often, but not always with help from the courts).
In EVE, CONCORD doesn't intervene in any way with theft, it allows the two involved parties to settle the matter. CONCORD is the Criminal Justice System in EVE, so it looks like in EVE, theft is a Tort.


I already showed you an example of what gets broken by Crimewatch. Other examples are available in the Crimewatch thread.

And allowing everyone to shoot at can flippers means that there is no reason for Miners to form Corps for protection, as they can simply let random bystanders do their work for them.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#505 - 2012-08-15 04:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Stealing is not a crime in EVE.



A crime isn't how you chose to define it, sorry.

Can flippers are theives and theives are people who commit crimes.Stealing has always been considered a crime though the history of humanity. That is why you are flagged to everyone once you steal, just like a criminal would be punishable by anyone if they stole. To think only the person who you stole from should be retaliate against you is both stupid and unrealistic. I advise you to learn the definitions of "crime" and "broken" and come back when you have a better argument.

Still waiting to hear how increased risk to can flippers "breaks" can flipping.


In the Real World, a Crime is something that the Police (well, Criminal Justice System) punish you for. A tort is a private matter that the involved parties settle (often, but not always with help from the courts).
In EVE, CONCORD doesn't intervene in any way with theft, it allows the two involved parties to settle the matter. CONCORD is the Criminal Justice System in EVE, so it looks like in EVE, theft is a Tort.


I already showed you an example of what gets broken by Crimewatch. Other examples are available in the Crimewatch thread.

And allowing everyone to shoot at can flippers means that there is no reason for Miners to form Corps for protection, as they can simply let random bystanders do their work for them.


Yes, so more than just the victim punishes the criminal. Thievery is a crime whether you can understand that or not. Sorry, having your own personal definitions for words is a pretty shakey platform for argument.

There is now a thread about whether this "breaks" can flipping or not. We can discuss it there where people can explain to you how this actually fixes can flipping.
General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#506 - 2012-08-15 05:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: General Xenophon
CCP at the impossible again, making looting and plundering pirating, boring.


Another village has been burned and even the 'Yar hars!' were silent at the sight of it.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#507 - 2012-08-15 10:00:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
Nerf Burger wrote:
Thievery is a crime whether you can understand that or not.


"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction". In simplier words that means that as long as some action isn't directly outlawed by formal rules (enforced by force), it's not a crime. You can see that in practice laws that concern capsuleers of New Eden allow any form of thievery from other capsuleers, alowing latter to defend themselves against it by giving them right to retailate.

Remember, "crime" is not a moral term, it's a lawer's term. No written law = no crime, no matter how "bad" is the offence in your eyes. Or in the country you live IRL.

It seems that CCP are thinking about changing laws of CONCORD.

What laws drive player-owned territory and how they are enforced, that is completely another story.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Pipa Porto
#508 - 2012-08-15 10:23:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Nerf Burger wrote:
Yes, so more than just the victim punishes the criminal. Thievery is a crime whether you can understand that or not. Sorry, having your own personal definitions for words is a pretty shakey platform for argument.

There is now a thread about whether this "breaks" can flipping or not. We can discuss it there where people can explain to you how this actually fixes can flipping.


In no civilized society do 3rd parties get to take part in responding to a tort.

Can Flipping and Theft among Capsuleers is not a Crime in EVE, as evidenced by the fact that the Police don't care about it (or you'd lose Sec Status and get Concorded).

Crimewatch breaks canflipping by allowing Bob the uninvolved third party to get involved at no cost or risk to himself (the guy Bob shoots never gets to bring backup that can shoot Bob, since only the people Bob shoots can shoot Bob). High Sec is where PVP either costs you directly (suicide ganking), or exposes you to risks you otherwise wouldn't be exposed to (Canflipper is exposed to the victim setting a trap and having his whole corp pile on). Why does Bob the 3rd party get PVP without any cost or threat of escalation or surprise (well, other Bobs can pile on on Bob's side, but that just underscores my point).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#509 - 2012-08-15 10:24:51 UTC
Just out of curiousity if Im in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp and they get can flipped, am I allowed to attack the can flipper?

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Pipa Porto
#510 - 2012-08-15 10:54:42 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Just out of curiousity if Im in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp and they get can flipped, am I allowed to attack the can flipper?


Nope. It's not your stuff. It's owned by the person who jetissoned the can and any player corp he's a member of.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Bommel McMurdoc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2012-08-15 14:35:10 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Just out of curiousity if Im in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp and they get can flipped, am I allowed to attack the can flipper?


Nope. It's not your stuff. It's owned by the person who jetissoned the can and any player corp he's a member of.



I distinctively remember being in a mining fleet and this guy in a hurricane comes in flips a can and I saw him turn red. I know that can wasn't mine, because I was flying the Orca.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#512 - 2012-08-15 16:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Yes, so more than just the victim punishes the criminal. Thievery is a crime whether you can understand that or not. Sorry, having your own personal definitions for words is a pretty shakey platform for argument.

There is now a thread about whether this "breaks" can flipping or not. We can discuss it there where people can explain to you how this actually fixes can flipping.


In no civilized society do 3rd parties get to take part in responding to a tort.

Can Flipping and Theft among Capsuleers is not a Crime in EVE, as evidenced by the fact that the Police don't care about it (or you'd lose Sec Status and get Concorded).

Crimewatch breaks canflipping by allowing Bob the uninvolved third party to get involved at no cost or risk to himself (the guy Bob shoots never gets to bring backup that can shoot Bob, since only the people Bob shoots can shoot Bob). High Sec is where PVP either costs you directly (suicide ganking), or exposes you to risks you otherwise wouldn't be exposed to (Canflipper is exposed to the victim setting a trap and having his whole corp pile on). Why does Bob the 3rd party get PVP without any cost or threat of escalation or surprise (well, other Bobs can pile on on Bob's side, but that just underscores my point).


sorry, a "crime" isn't how you define it nor is can flipping "broken". apparently CCP agrees with me in that can flipping should be punishable by anyone, it is stealing after all, and stealing is crime, not a tort. Can flipping has been fixed, if anything. There is another thread created on this subject, nobody agrees with you than this "breaks" can flipping, it only involves more risk, if you aren't willing to take the risk anymore then that is your fault, not CCPs. So, in no way does this "break" can flipping. You might want to go back to elementary school before you try to debate people, having your own personal definitions is not a good platform for an argument.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#513 - 2012-08-15 16:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Just out of curiousity if Im in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp and they get can flipped, am I allowed to attack the can flipper?



you will be able to soon once CCP fixes can flipping. Stealing should have always been punishable by anyone. It was ridiculous before.
Pipa Porto
#514 - 2012-08-16 00:04:06 UTC
Bommel McMurdoc wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Just out of curiousity if Im in a fleet with someone who is not in my corp and they get can flipped, am I allowed to attack the can flipper?


Nope. It's not your stuff. It's owned by the person who jetissoned the can and any player corp he's a member of.



I distinctively remember being in a mining fleet and this guy in a hurricane comes in flips a can and I saw him turn red. I know that can wasn't mine, because I was flying the Orca.



Then you were in the same Corp as the person who dropped the can.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#515 - 2012-08-16 00:12:38 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
sorry, a "crime" isn't how you define it nor is can flipping "broken". apparently CCP agrees with me in that can flipping should be punishable by anyone, it is stealing after all, and stealing is crime, not a tort. Can flipping has been fixed, if anything. There is another thread created on this subject, nobody agrees with you than this "breaks" can flipping, it only involves more risk, if you aren't willing to take the risk anymore then that is your fault, not CCPs. So, in no way does this "break" can flipping. You might want to go back to elementary school before you try to debate people, having your own personal definitions is not a good platform for an argument.



CCP's been backpedaling away from just about everything it's said about Crimewatch 2.0.

CONCORD is the police of EVE.
CONCORD doesn't do anything about Can Flipping/Theft
Therefore, Can Flipping/Theft are not Crimes in EVE.

Wikipedia's definition of Crime:
"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction. "

Let's see, Can Flipping may be a breach of rules or laws, but no governing authority can prescribe a conviction (as represented by a Sec Status hit or CONCORDing), therefore, it is not a crime in the EVE universe.

Even if Crimewatch 2.0 were implemented in the dumbass way it's been proposed, can flipping/theft would not be a crime.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#516 - 2012-08-16 00:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
sorry, a "crime" isn't how you define it nor is can flipping "broken". apparently CCP agrees with me in that can flipping should be punishable by anyone, it is stealing after all, and stealing is crime, not a tort. Can flipping has been fixed, if anything. There is another thread created on this subject, nobody agrees with you than this "breaks" can flipping, it only involves more risk, if you aren't willing to take the risk anymore then that is your fault, not CCPs. So, in no way does this "break" can flipping. You might want to go back to elementary school before you try to debate people, having your own personal definitions is not a good platform for an argument.



CCP's been backpedaling away from just about everything it's said about Crimewatch 2.0.

CONCORD is the police of EVE.
CONCORD doesn't do anything about Can Flipping/Theft
Therefore, Can Flipping/Theft are not Crimes in EVE.

Wikipedia's definition of Crime:
"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction. "

Let's see, Can Flipping may be a breach of rules or laws, but no governing authority can prescribe a conviction (as represented by a Sec Status hit or CONCORDing), therefore, it is not a crime in the EVE universe.

Even if Crimewatch 2.0 were implemented in the dumbass way it's been proposed, can flipping/theft would not be a crime.


Sorry, you dont get to decide what a crime is or isn't. The rest of the world does that. Maybe your post average wasn't 48 posts a day, you wouldn't have such a closed mind when it came to reality. Stealing is a crime and its about time it was punished as such. If anything, this is a fix to can flipping, making it more realistic. Its about time. You claim that by adding more risk to can flipping, it somehow "breaks" can flipping. This just goes to show how detached from rational thought you really are. When someone posts as much as you do, its indicative of mental problems and psychological disorder, not to mention being a social reject that nobody can take seriously.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#517 - 2012-08-16 00:26:37 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
sorry, a "crime" isn't how you define it nor is can flipping "broken". apparently CCP agrees with me in that can flipping should be punishable by anyone, it is stealing after all, and stealing is crime, not a tort. Can flipping has been fixed, if anything. There is another thread created on this subject, nobody agrees with you than this "breaks" can flipping, it only involves more risk, if you aren't willing to take the risk anymore then that is your fault, not CCPs. So, in no way does this "break" can flipping. You might want to go back to elementary school before you try to debate people, having your own personal definitions is not a good platform for an argument.



CCP's been backpedaling away from just about everything it's said about Crimewatch 2.0.

CONCORD is the police of EVE.
CONCORD doesn't do anything about Can Flipping/Theft
Therefore, Can Flipping/Theft are not Crimes in EVE.

Wikipedia's definition of Crime:
"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction. "

Let's see, Can Flipping may be a breach of rules or laws, but no governing authority can prescribe a conviction (as represented by a Sec Status hit or CONCORDing), therefore, it is not a crime in the EVE universe.

Even if Crimewatch 2.0 were implemented in the dumbass way it's been proposed, can flipping/theft would not be a crime.


Sorry, you dont get to decide what a crime is or isn't. The rest of the world does that. Maybe your post average wasn't 48 posts a day, you wouldn't have such a closed mind when it came to reality. Stealing is a crime and its about time it was punished as such. If anything, this is a fix to can flipping, making it more realistic. Its about time. You claim that by adding more risk to can flipping, it somehow "breaks" can flipping. This just goes to show how detached from rational thought you really are. When someone posts as much as you do, its indicative of mental problems and psychological disorder, not to mention being a social reject that nobody can take seriously.


*bangs head* Please.....Stop...Posting....In ...My ...Thread... You ...Moron....
Pipa Porto
#518 - 2012-08-16 01:39:42 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
sorry, a "crime" isn't how you define it nor is can flipping "broken". apparently CCP agrees with me in that can flipping should be punishable by anyone, it is stealing after all, and stealing is crime, not a tort. Can flipping has been fixed, if anything. There is another thread created on this subject, nobody agrees with you than this "breaks" can flipping, it only involves more risk, if you aren't willing to take the risk anymore then that is your fault, not CCPs. So, in no way does this "break" can flipping. You might want to go back to elementary school before you try to debate people, having your own personal definitions is not a good platform for an argument.



CCP's been backpedaling away from just about everything it's said about Crimewatch 2.0.

CONCORD is the police of EVE.
CONCORD doesn't do anything about Can Flipping/Theft
Therefore, Can Flipping/Theft are not Crimes in EVE.

Wikipedia's definition of Crime:
"Crime is the breach of rules or laws for which some governing authority (via mechanisms such as legal systems) can ultimately prescribe a conviction. "

Let's see, Can Flipping may be a breach of rules or laws, but no governing authority can prescribe a conviction (as represented by a Sec Status hit or CONCORDing), therefore, it is not a crime in the EVE universe.

Even if Crimewatch 2.0 were implemented in the dumbass way it's been proposed, can flipping/theft would not be a crime.


Sorry, you dont get to decide what a crime is or isn't. The rest of the world does that. Maybe your post average wasn't 48 posts a day, you wouldn't have such a closed mind when it came to reality. Stealing is a crime and its about time it was punished as such. If anything, this is a fix to can flipping, making it more realistic. Its about time. You claim that by adding more risk to can flipping, it somehow "breaks" can flipping. This just goes to show how detached from rational thought you really are. When someone posts as much as you do, its indicative of mental problems and psychological disorder, not to mention being a social reject that nobody can take seriously.


Sorry, you don't get to decide what a crime is or isn't in EVE. The Police and the Yulai Convention do. The rest of the world isn't relevant.

Even if it were, in the real world, anyone can intervene in a lawsuit? Oh... Nope. Anyone can intervene in a property crime? Oh... Nope.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Esk Esme
Simply Pleasure inc
#519 - 2012-08-16 02:06:59 UTC
Signed

who the hell thinks of these stupid idea's

also will unsub four acounts lived lo sec for years it home my main -10 only resone i av other acounts are to suport that -10 acountthere would be no point with these sentry changes
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#520 - 2012-08-16 02:14:15 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sorry, you don't get to decide what a crime is or isn't in EVE. The Police and the Yulai Convention do. The rest of the world isn't relevant.

Surely the community of EVE could decide additional rules for themselves, as in all forms of governance? Smile

MinerBumping.com