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A petition to CCP Greyscale on Sentry Mechanics (Please Read)

First post First post First post
Author
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#281 - 2012-08-06 00:46:38 UTC
Then ******* burn everything!!!
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#282 - 2012-08-06 01:06:48 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
1BoroBoy1 wrote:
Stick the game up yer arse if this happens.
RIP Eve.
Goons own null, carebears own everything else now=pirates dead


Perhaps it would be amusing to take on our "owners?"

They need to buff CONCORD before we make lowsec burn.

SO about the carebears owning lowsec, uh ... well ...


Well I was talking about burning Null Sec. Low Sec already burns Pirate
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#283 - 2012-08-06 01:11:18 UTC
/signed

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#284 - 2012-08-06 01:19:06 UTC
EliteStealth wrote:
SIGNED.....WITH AN EMPHASIS ON THAT

Also if Eve is a sandbox why is ccp trying to take away from that mechanic??? Honestly if people like low sec and aren't complaining then wy change it? Furthermore the game isn't about making it easier its about willpower, strength, and determination. The best quote from EVEONLINE I have ever heard is Wow gives you a cookie for each of your accomplishments...EVEONLINE takes your cookie eats it in front of you and laughs at you for brining one in the first place...


Because Eve is not the sandbox that you think it is, or the one everyone tells you that it is. It is player driven, true. But that is still dependent on the rules that are posted. If anything, more rules are posted with each year, and people rage everytime it happens. This time is no different.

I'm really starting to believe that CCP is challenging its players to rise to a new standard of excellence with the most recent changes. If so, i applaud that. Complacency is the death knell to all things.

John Hancock

Venezul
State War Academy
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-08-06 01:19:53 UTC
Signed
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#286 - 2012-08-06 01:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
EliteStealth wrote:
SIGNED.....WITH AN EMPHASIS ON THAT

Also if Eve is a sandbox why is ccp trying to take away from that mechanic??? Honestly if people like low sec and aren't complaining then wy change it? Furthermore the game isn't about making it easier its about willpower, strength, and determination. The best quote from EVEONLINE I have ever heard is Wow gives you a cookie for each of your accomplishments...EVEONLINE takes your cookie eats it in front of you and laughs at you for brining one in the first place...


Because Eve is not the sandbox that you think it is, or the one everyone tells you that it is. It is player driven, true. But that is still dependent on the rules that are posted. If anything, more rules are posted with each year, and people rage everytime it happens. This time is no different.

I'm really starting to believe that CCP is challenging its players to rise to a new standard of excellence with the most recent changes. If so, i applaud that. Complacency is the death knell to all things.


How is pandering to those who make CCP bend their ear to make them more powerful "excellence"? I sure as **** didn't "vote" for half of the puppets on the CSM and my views certainly are not represented.

Eve has always in my view been about infinite space. Vast reaches of unexplored systems where a player can be free. A sandbox in it's purist form is player freedom. Being a Pirate is a parallel to see such means justified. Low Sec has no rules (aside from GCC etc) which is a game mechanic.

It has no CONCORD or some multi faced Alliance you need to grovel and kiss the ground upon which they walk to be in. It is clear to me that Eve has taken a drastic turn in recent years as assets and power have become more attainable to those whom years ago wouldn't have them.

And once again we see the big headlines be the big alliance fighting for what? "Sov". This magical term in which their pilots will gleefully proclaim makes them superior. As if Mittens will sign your character name under the system itself and you "own" it.

Wrong. These people are nothing but cogs in an ever turning machine that keeps grinding away piece by piece at the core elements of what used to make Eve great. And how do I come by this opinion?

When we engaged Nulli Secunda about a month ago they brought in roughly 80 pilots to our 12. They chased us around the system as we attempted to kite them using Loki boosts and such to stay away from their fast tackle while being able to pick off slower targets.

Eventually in their "tactical genius" they covered all gates but one. The one in which we made our escape. Yet for all their failings and smack one line proved to me how cheap CCP has turned this games combat and the meaning of fights.

"At lease we have sov." So it matters not your fleet composition, or your individual contribution as a pilot but rather that you have a little text that reads "This conglomerate owns this" that spurs you on....

Last time I checked I thought Eve was all about individuality and purpose. Clearly that isn't the case because these types of proposed changes and way they keep wrecking the small areas in which true combat does take place is evidence enough.
Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#287 - 2012-08-06 05:11:32 UTC
Homo Jesus wrote:


Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:

Pirates killed piracy. You guys could have ran that sh*t like the mob, but instead it became about kill mails, dishonoring ransoms and blowing up anything that popped through the gates. The short term thinking of the majority of losec players amazes me, because with some protection rackets and crafty manipulation you might have made some serious bank. I'm talking a player-driven social structure that could easily be comparable to such things as the mob in 30s Chicago or 70-80s New York, or even a Mexican Cartel organization.

Maybe that's what CCP is trying to nudge the players to incorporate for themselves, instead of this scorched earth policy that most people utilize for the lulz and the mailz. That was never sustainable in the first place, and it reeks of welfare dependance that players would do this and then cry that CCP should move Lvl4s, Incursions, etc. out to losec. By now making it near impossible to perma-tank gate guns (which never should have been an option, ever), players will now have to adapt, be creative, learn new methods to play and profit from the game. If losec players are smart, they will start thinking more long term. They may even create a whole new social structure in losec that would encourage more people to come to losec via a mafia-style protection system that would shield those who pay and destroy those who are payees to other losec corps.

THIS would be emergent gameplay, and this would be something that would draw me out into losec in a heartbeat



Here is an example of a guy that thinks a sentry change would magically create something that already exists. After this change he still wouldn't go near low sec and I'll prove it to you.

I have a small low sec pocket under decent control with a level 4 agent, lucrative belts for mining and very nice exploration sites. I can provide you with an intel channel, light blue status, and a custom scarebear guide to help insure your safety. The cost is 100mil a month per character. I'll wait for all the mails to pour in from interested carebears....Roll

The minute I tell them they need to watch local, use d-scan and report intel they think I'm ripping them off because we can never make it a 100% brainless activity like high sec and they will need to be at the keyboard 100% when in space. They don't understand they are just paying for "protection"....FROM US not every single person that enters local. Wanna pay for that? No? Why?

Ransoms? How many have you paid? 9 1/2 times out of 10 when you offer a ransom you're promptly told to F*UCK OFF. While I can understand this mindset we're not talking about a ransom mechanic being added to escrow money that only gets released when the point drops.


And here is an example of someone who needs some reading comprehension. You're proving my point in that there is a prevalent sense of entitlement to CCP to perpetuate a welfare nation for Losec and PvP. Say what you want about Goons and the rest of the nulsec entities, at least they make their game. They don't sit around begging CCP for anything, they go out and make it happen. This is something losec can do as well, and yet they don't. They blame PvEers, nulseccers, CCP, everyone but themselves. You (and this time I am being specific) obviously didn't read what I wrote, most likely just skimmed over it and then went on your usual tirade.

What I proposed does not exist, by the very fact that the rallying cry is losec is empty. If something like this existed in the manner that I spoke of, I can guarantee you that losec would probably be far more interesting than it has ever been. What I spoke of was in all intents and purposes a protection service. The losec corp makes the money in exchange for keeping their charges safe from harm. That means if a rival corp comes into a system that you have figuratively claimed, it's your responsibility to protecty it as well. Those who don't pay don't get to play in your system or systems. You scan them down and destroy them if you cannot take them out initially.

All of this requires work, yes. It will not always just fall into your lap like sitting around on a gate once did. But the rewards will be far more lucrative in the long run, and when something like this became more widespread, would create a more vibrant losec. I'm talking urban turf war type stuff here, and before you say that losec isn't nulsec, let me say that the bloods, crips, Hell's Angels et al do not officially own their turfs, it still belongs to the cities they are in. This is no different. If you stopped being snarky and facetious, you might realize this.

As for ransoms, never paid one for two reasons. One, only had one offered to me, which wasn't worth the ship I was flying in (don't fly what you can't afford to lose), and two, after spending time in losec, I learned how to get around without getting into a bad situation.

John Hancock

snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#288 - 2012-08-06 05:21:07 UTC
If gate camping was the only "traffic" in low-sec, GOOD RIDDANCE Lol

I predict more kind of the good traffic in low-sec, more roaming gangs.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#289 - 2012-08-06 05:48:06 UTC
snake pies wrote:
If gate camping was the only "traffic" in low-sec, GOOD RIDDANCE Lol

I predict more kind of the good traffic in low-sec, more roaming gangs.


Coming from a TEST member I'd expect nothing less out of your post...Roll
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#290 - 2012-08-06 05:50:44 UTC
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
Homo Jesus wrote:


Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:

Pirates killed piracy. You guys could have ran that sh*t like the mob, but instead it became about kill mails, dishonoring ransoms and blowing up anything that popped through the gates. The short term thinking of the majority of losec players amazes me, because with some protection rackets and crafty manipulation you might have made some serious bank. I'm talking a player-driven social structure that could easily be comparable to such things as the mob in 30s Chicago or 70-80s New York, or even a Mexican Cartel organization.

Maybe that's what CCP is trying to nudge the players to incorporate for themselves, instead of this scorched earth policy that most people utilize for the lulz and the mailz. That was never sustainable in the first place, and it reeks of welfare dependance that players would do this and then cry that CCP should move Lvl4s, Incursions, etc. out to losec. By now making it near impossible to perma-tank gate guns (which never should have been an option, ever), players will now have to adapt, be creative, learn new methods to play and profit from the game. If losec players are smart, they will start thinking more long term. They may even create a whole new social structure in losec that would encourage more people to come to losec via a mafia-style protection system that would shield those who pay and destroy those who are payees to other losec corps.

THIS would be emergent gameplay, and this would be something that would draw me out into losec in a heartbeat



Here is an example of a guy that thinks a sentry change would magically create something that already exists. After this change he still wouldn't go near low sec and I'll prove it to you.

I have a small low sec pocket under decent control with a level 4 agent, lucrative belts for mining and very nice exploration sites. I can provide you with an intel channel, light blue status, and a custom scarebear guide to help insure your safety. The cost is 100mil a month per character. I'll wait for all the mails to pour in from interested carebears....Roll

The minute I tell them they need to watch local, use d-scan and report intel they think I'm ripping them off because we can never make it a 100% brainless activity like high sec and they will need to be at the keyboard 100% when in space. They don't understand they are just paying for "protection"....FROM US not every single person that enters local. Wanna pay for that? No? Why?

Ransoms? How many have you paid? 9 1/2 times out of 10 when you offer a ransom you're promptly told to F*UCK OFF. While I can understand this mindset we're not talking about a ransom mechanic being added to escrow money that only gets released when the point drops.


And here is an example of someone who needs some reading comprehension. You're proving my point in that there is a prevalent sense of entitlement to CCP to perpetuate a welfare nation for Losec and PvP. Say what you want about Goons and the rest of the nulsec entities, at least they make their game. They don't sit around begging CCP for anything, they go out and make it happen.


No they just rig the CSM and keep CCP devs in their pocket for their advantage.... The gutting of small gang pvp should prove this.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#291 - 2012-08-06 06:00:06 UTC
Tara Read wrote:
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
And here is an example of someone who needs some reading comprehension. You're proving my point in that there is a prevalent sense of entitlement to CCP to perpetuate a welfare nation for Losec and PvP. Say what you want about Goons and the rest of the nulsec entities, at least they make their game. They don't sit around begging CCP for anything, they go out and make it happen.

No they just rig the CSM and keep CCP devs in their pocket for their advantage.... The gutting of small gang pvp should prove this.

Blobbing is ~the~ new elite pvp.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#292 - 2012-08-06 06:11:26 UTC
Tara Read wrote:

How is pandering to those who make CCP bend their ear to make them more powerful "excellence"? I sure as **** didn't "vote" for half of the puppets on the CSM and my views certainly are not represented.


And what viewpoint of yours are you afraid is not being represented?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#293 - 2012-08-06 06:13:07 UTC
snake pies wrote:
If gate camping was the only "traffic" in low-sec, GOOD RIDDANCE Lol

I predict more kind of the good traffic in low-sec, more roaming gangs.


This change kills roaming gangs as much as static gatecamps. MANY average engagements can last several minutes, these changes would kill the interest of anyone engaging on a fight on a gate at all. Where do you expect all this PvP to occur? Have you seen an abundance of ships hanging out in low sec asteroid belts or planetside?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2012-08-06 06:39:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
Cyprus Black wrote:
Finally!
Trade can finally come to lowsec.
Players can enter in ship sizes larger than frigates.
EVERY lowsec access point will no longer be permacamped.
Corporations now have a legitimate reason to live in lowsec.
Miners and explorers now have an acceptable margin of risk.
The most unbalanced risk/reward area of space is finally seeing balance.
PI can really take off now.
Corporations are more inclined to moon mine lesser materials.
There will be a massive influx of players for pirates to shoot at.

Finally! The most neglected aspect of this game is finally starting to receive love. You bitter vets who hate change of any kind, you're welcome to cancel all five million of your accounts. The game will be changing and your inability/unwillingness to adapt is your own fault. Good riddance.


Haha, yeah - someone is still gonna slowboat to Jita. Or it'll just be produced in low *looks at all the empty manufacturing slots*
Doing fine in anything between capsules and BCs here.
You haven't been to a lot of different low-sec entrances have you? So far I've been camped once - granted I'm not that old of a player but I've lost enough ships due to ridiculous reasons (yeah you can bring up my BC killboard I don't mind - if that's what you ppl need to do to harden your "arguments"...)
With x as margin of risk lim x = 0 I don't think that's acceptable. It's ridiculous.
The most unbalanced risk/reward area of space is finally seeing balance - please elaborate how this influences highsec missionrunners.
PI can take of now - because POCOs don't indicate PI.
Well they have to due to the uneven spread of stuff like Tech.
That may be - then they'll get killed in system and just run from gate to gate or stay where they are now.

Gatecamps? Missionrunners! - and it ain't an aspect - if you say "lowsec's an aspect" this statement shows what's wrong. it shouldn't be an aspect but a veritable venue of EVE life. An aspect for me is "L4s are an aspect of Highsec", "Incursions are an aspect of highsec" - they are a tiny bit of what you can do and not the whole. Though if you think that gatecamps are the only occupation to lowsec maybe you should just stay where you are because you don't seem to eager to go out and do other stuff.
No bittervet here (see above).
EDIT2: Regarding lowsec as an aspect of the whole game might work - but then again how many lowsec dwellers could go to highsec even if they wanted to without using alts? For some people "lowsec" is the whole game - for others it's "highsec" and for other's still it's nullsec. Rarely do all those, or even two, intersect on a single account/character. As such I still wouldn't regard it as an aspect - I know ppl that are in lowsec, were in lowsec and will stay in lowsec - it's their "life" that'll change, and not just a tiny speck of it. /EDIT
Wait what? Multiple accounts? What's that? I've heard of crazy ppl who supposedly have more then 1 char on their account. How does that work?
Because adapting to loosing money faster then getting it is easypeasy *adapts to gaining more money due to barge changes at 0 risks in highsec* Point clear or do I need to write a dissertation on that?

P.S.: "You get the video file, and tell us if these guys are smoking crack." P39 CSM-Summit Minutes
Yeah - so we wait for a video of a gatecamp that horribly fails - then the CSM says NAY (which they, for some reason didn't when this was proposed). CCP still gonna put it, then note how that work may have "broken" a system that wasn't running to smoothly and THEN they'll still not think about all the wasted manhours. *looks at UI, looks back up, looks at WiS, looks back up* (OKOK, UI will be fine once they apply the fixes talked about in the minutes but we'll see them when? Winter 2013?). How about changing to a 1 expansion per year schedule, cutting away half of the "planning and release hassle" and giving you the time to do it right in the first go.

P.P.S.: Reminds me of the complaints when the Tier3 BCs were released (we want a missile platform wah wah wah for our wah Naga). Maybe we should get some of those Nagas, ignore tank, go for 250km optimal put Proteus' as tackle and shoot stuff. Oh wait snipers don't work that good due to probing... *looks back up* Hey another thing that needs to be fixed before you should tackle sentries (makes 3 including UI and WiS (which comes with the-game-none-shall-talk-about I guess (WoD))).

TL;DR version: Change is What? at best and "Click here Arrow to unsubscribe" at worst.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2012-08-06 08:30:16 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
snake pies wrote:
If gate camping was the only "traffic" in low-sec, GOOD RIDDANCE Lol

I predict more kind of the good traffic in low-sec, more roaming gangs.


This change kills roaming gangs as much as static gatecamps. MANY average engagements can last several minutes, these changes would kill the interest of anyone engaging on a fight on a gate at all. Where do you expect all this PvP to occur? Have you seen an abundance of ships hanging out in low sec asteroid belts or planetside?


Oh dear me. Are we back to the point that gates themselves are the problem once again? Who would have guessed?

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
Infinite Pew
#296 - 2012-08-06 08:42:19 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:

Oh dear me. Are we back to the point that gates themselves are the problem once again? Who would have guessed?


Anyone that lives and PvP's in low sec. Remember - you're talking to a Faction Warfare pilot. One of the major appeals to Faction Warfare is the lack of gate fire interfering with our PvP. I don't have a ton of sympathy with those that feel that gate camps ruin their ability to navigate low sec, sentry fire does nothing to protect me in my travels, hauling, or PvP roams. I'd rather we teach pilots the skills they need to survive out here than simply make low sec safer because people haven't figured out how to play the game.

The bottom line is, low sec is still fight club. People come out here to slug the crap out of each other. Sure, there's mining, and anomalies, but these activities are secondary to Piracy and FW as the primary appeal. If you want to revitalize low sec, you support and promote the PvP culture, plain and simple.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#297 - 2012-08-06 08:46:47 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Tara Read wrote:

How is pandering to those who make CCP bend their ear to make them more powerful "excellence"? I sure as **** didn't "vote" for half of the puppets on the CSM and my views certainly are not represented.


And what viewpoint of yours are you afraid is not being represented?


Well certainly nothing that encourages small gang pvp as this thread even being created points out. Show me the last time CCP made strives to encourage smaller engagements instead of only going with the status quo the big alliances wanted. Instead their trying to move even more players into Null Sec as these proposed gate changes would probably accomplish.

See back when Eve was still in it's infancy you had a much lower population than what it is today. B0B and Goons were the talk of the day and still low sec maintained actually quite a decent population with players having a drive to be there.

Instead that drive or interest has all shifted to Null with the profit to be made being leaps and bounds compared to the trickle of income low sec now provides. Remember kids "greed is good" right?

That's what we were spoon fed and everyone bought it. Instead you now have the top Null Sec alliances in everything from market control to dev influence. In simplistic terms the game is being steered into only what suits "their" goals and means.

See I'm sure myself and others could give two ***** less about what goes down in 0.0 except the influence of the players from said regions is far reaching to now with these proposed changes that seek to strangle the last gasp from low sec.

My views are simple. Get rid of super caps altogether. Fielding dozens of these monsters now is game breaking to the point where individual pilots are simply specks in an overall gameplay experience and thus cheapens it.

Remove any and all big alliance representatives from CSM to prove to me you don't influence how this game will be played by others.

Focus resources into other elements of the game that are neglected and have long been ignored. Reinvigorate dying elements of game play to further enrich and enhance a players experience in Eve.

Certainly these are just my views. But seeing as I've sat and watched Eve morph into this twisted mass of elitism masked by "equal representation" my biggest fear is the game I have come to know and love will altogether vanish in a myriad of inflation, control, manipulation, and stagnation.
Frying Doom
#298 - 2012-08-06 08:47:05 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
snake pies wrote:
If gate camping was the only "traffic" in low-sec, GOOD RIDDANCE Lol

I predict more kind of the good traffic in low-sec, more roaming gangs.


This change kills roaming gangs as much as static gatecamps. MANY average engagements can last several minutes, these changes would kill the interest of anyone engaging on a fight on a gate at all. Where do you expect all this PvP to occur? Have you seen an abundance of ships hanging out in low sec asteroid belts or planetside?


Oh dear me. Are we back to the point that gates themselves are the problem once again? Who would have guessed?


Yeah because the way things are people so want to go to lo-sec. I was in there an hour ago traveling and actually saw 4 people over a section of 10 systems(ofc I avoided the usual camped systems).

They were all on local no visual contact. Hell Lo-sec is so crowded, I wonder why CCP want to make it friendlier.

Personally as its still part of Empire but all they have is gate and station guns they should work just like hi-sec. Otherwise why are they there, its kind of stupid.

So gang roam for pvp or go to Null or wormholes where it makes sense.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#299 - 2012-08-06 08:48:17 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tara Read wrote:
Jimmy Gunsmythe wrote:
And here is an example of someone who needs some reading comprehension. You're proving my point in that there is a prevalent sense of entitlement to CCP to perpetuate a welfare nation for Losec and PvP. Say what you want about Goons and the rest of the nulsec entities, at least they make their game. They don't sit around begging CCP for anything, they go out and make it happen.

No they just rig the CSM and keep CCP devs in their pocket for their advantage.... The gutting of small gang pvp should prove this.

Blobbing is ~the~ new elite pvp.


Clearly. Because having 200 saps at your back proves individual mettle.
Tara Read
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#300 - 2012-08-06 08:52:10 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Gillia Winddancer wrote:

Oh dear me. Are we back to the point that gates themselves are the problem once again? Who would have guessed?


Anyone that lives and PvP's in low sec. Remember - you're talking to a Faction Warfare pilot. One of the major appeals to Faction Warfare is the lack of gate fire interfering with our PvP. I don't have a ton of sympathy with those that feel that gate camps ruin their ability to navigate low sec, sentry fire does nothing to protect me in my travels, hauling, or PvP roams. I'd rather we teach pilots the skills they need to survive out here than simply make low sec safer because people haven't figured out how to play the game.

The bottom line is, low sec is still fight club. People come out here to slug the crap out of each other. Sure, there's mining, and anomalies, but these activities are secondary to Piracy and FW as the primary appeal. If you want to revitalize low sec, you support and promote the PvP culture, plain and simple.


And when has a CSM brought up your last sentence? Last major change in Eve I saw was walking in a station and being able to buy a new pair of boots.