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So, where's our war?
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#121 - 2017-04-01 01:01:31 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.

Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.

Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.

But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law.


You should probably check your facts. Enslaved descendants of slaves taken in raids persist in the Empire, including bloodlines who were placed in chains for no reason other than the Reclaiming. The fact that the Empire's bloody expansion was checked by the Gallente and then the Jove has not changed how Holders approach their slaves.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#122 - 2017-04-01 01:07:03 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
The Empire does need to streamline a lot its issues. But when you have an Emperor that can live for nearly 500 years there is very little to be done except outright civil war.


At this point, I'd think the Empire would be happy with a ruler who lasts fifteen years.

Not that the longevity of the sovereign has any bearing on potential corruption within the Admiralty, or the fact that people seem to think one of the proponents of expanded Reclaiming operations will suddenly eliminate the raids by the Imperial Navy now that she's on the throne.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#123 - 2017-04-01 07:53:16 UTC
I would also point out that even if it is true that the Empire is not currently pursuing a Reclaiming War, the idea of slavery as a way to salvation that the Amarr have a moral duty to offer to "lesser races" is still very much canon in the Amarrian religion. A temporary political decision not to openly pursue that duty by war is great for those who wish to have peace, but it is hardly the same thing as having forever set aside plans to do so in the future.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2017-04-01 07:54:44 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.

Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.

Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.

But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law.


You should probably check your facts. Enslaved descendants of slaves taken in raids persist in the Empire, including bloodlines who were placed in chains for no reason other than the Reclaiming. The fact that the Empire's bloody expansion was checked by the Gallente and then the Jove has not changed how Holders approach their slaves.


It certainly hasn't changed the fact that most slaves in the Empire are treated fairly by their owners.

And anyway, why would we let the occasional setback stop us from doing the right thing?

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2017-04-01 10:29:50 UTC
Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand?
I don't.

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Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2017-04-02 08:17:55 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand?
I don't.


Which doesn't mean anything. Since when are you the very model of an Amarr citizen?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#127 - 2017-04-02 10:55:44 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Anyone does slave raids? Raise hand?
I don't.


Which doesn't mean anything. Since when are you the very model of an Amarr citizen?


While probably not a lot of people match any of them exactly, Mr. Egivand, there kind of seem to be several models of Amarrian citizenry. Which one is preferred depends on rank, but also House allegiance.

Qualities desired in a vassal to House Ardishapur will tend to vary from those House Kador, or even Sarum, appreciates.

House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#128 - 2017-04-02 13:04:51 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force.


Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#129 - 2017-04-02 13:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Maria Daphiti
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force.


Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria.



Lawfully it has.

If you want to judge us by our outlaws , there are other outlaws that slave, such as the the various pirate factions that plague each of the Empires. A very wide criminal element, whether the motivation be profit or belief, perpetuates forcible enslavement in the cluster, regardless of how it's "called".

PIE stands for the Law and the Empire.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#130 - 2017-04-02 13:26:10 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
PIE stands for the Law and the Empire.

PIE would throw a party and commit a mortal sin by drinking themselves senseless in celebration, if the war of reclamation started tonight.

Upholding the law does not always mean you believe in it.

I should know.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#131 - 2017-04-03 12:13:10 UTC
I would like to point out that probably the largest criminal organization that deals with slavery, illegal enslavement and human trafficking actually comes from the Republic, and bears a name of Angel Cartel.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#132 - 2017-04-03 12:57:07 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
House Sarum is I think the only House to favor renewed Reclaiming by force.


Renewed implies it's ever actually stopped, Aria.



Lawfully it has.

If you want to judge us by our outlaws , there are other outlaws that slave, such as the the various pirate factions that plague each of the Empires. A very wide criminal element, whether the motivation be profit or belief, perpetuates forcible enslavement in the cluster, regardless of how it's "called".

PIE stands for the Law and the Empire.

While yes you are correct on that, which do it as a part of their religion? Blood raiders, a spin off of the Amarr religion, and....?

Also, lets not kid ourselves. PIE would be in its glory if reclaiming by force became a thing again.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#133 - 2017-04-03 13:25:28 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Lawfully it has.

If you want to judge us by our outlaws


I'll consider it judging the Empire by its outlaws when it stops being hundreds, if not thousands, of Imperial Navy ships operating 'illegally' in Republic space.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#134 - 2017-04-03 14:42:56 UTC
There are many who fight in the shadow war who might be grateful for a chance to fight in the light again. Of course, an open war would unleash horrors not seen in centuries upon people who mostly live in peace, these days.

As tempting as it might be just to have it out once and for all, I suspect none of us would much like the Cluster that would be left afterwards.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#135 - 2017-04-03 14:46:28 UTC
The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.

Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#136 - 2017-04-03 14:57:23 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.

Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.

Actually I agree with this, Mr. Onzo. While the Empire prohibits illegal enslavement, Minmatar government doesn't even consider it illegal if Republic kidnappers will break Empire borders and will steal some Amarr slaves.

I am pretty sure if Imperial Navy commits illegal enslavement act, when they will be presented with evidences, those who participated in this will be punished accordingly to the law (and maybe even will be enslaved themselves).

While if you counter the Republic with evidences of slaves theft, they will cry rivers and will bark with foam at their mouth that it is "their right" to intervene into Empire affair and steal their property or kidnap their citizens Ugh

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#137 - 2017-04-03 15:04:38 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.

Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.

Not one single group of people in the cluster is innocent. Some simply pass the blame on to "outlaws" and others ignore it entirely. Atleast those who ignore it entirely aren't lieing to themselves as much as to their audience. Pot and kettle, while both black are different shades. Which ones darker? Matter of opinion maybe?
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#138 - 2017-04-03 15:08:36 UTC
Entirely a matter of opinion and subjective to the individual. That's why the whole affair is so contentious, everyone believes they're in the right and the others are in the wrong.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#139 - 2017-04-03 15:09:37 UTC
With that said, i think were in agreement.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#140 - 2017-04-03 15:30:46 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
The same tit for tat can be said about Republic Fleet vessels illegally encroaching on Amarr sovereign high security territory in the hundreds, if not thousands, building gates and the like despite the Yulai accords against such things. You might see them as justified in their actions just as some Amarr see those that illegally enslave as justified in theirs.

Kettles are black, and so are pots, but none of this calling out achieves anything with regards to a common settlement.


Settlement, when there's nothing but pretense and lies to build it on? "Oh no, it's illegal. Doesn't really happen. Outlaws, surely." oozing sickly through a false smile can have only one response. "Fine, we'll deal with it ourselves and you'll be paying the price for it." Would you perhaps prefer ignoring these things? Would that be a basis to settle matters on?

The simple truth of it all is that at this point, New Eden would be justified in glassing every populated planet in Empire space for the crimes it has committed against humanity and continues to commit while pretending it doesn't. The fact that this will never happen - for countless reasons, practical as well as ethical - doesn't alleviate the Empire of having earned that sentence.

It doesn't matter how many words are bandied about or truths twisted into illegibility. It doesn't matter how many on both sides try their hardest to ignore the worst crime committed in New Eden's history so they can cower in the illusion of peace and safety while tittering, getting drunk and ******* in whatever watering hole is Egger Dejour. It doesn't matter that cowards and spineless scum hide behind law or convention so they don't have to take uncomfortable stances of principle.

In the end, there can never be any kind of true peace between the Tribes and the Empire, until either one breaks. The Yulai Convention isn't worth the oxygen wasted speaking the words, as long as both sides are so fundamentally opposed. One side bound by doctrine, dogma and pure blackhearted greed to enslave and eradicate the other, and the other rather understandably not comfortable with that fact nor ever able to forget or forgive the unmatched crime and horror inflicted upon it.

Think a damned treaty or convention matters to either? Think there can ever be a settlement of these accounts? This isn't kettles or pots. This is a matter that has been unsettled for centuries and can only be ended by blood. Might want to stop pretending this has a peaceful solution, because there won't be one. The Empire will never surrender our people or even admit that their action was one of the most vile crimes ever committed. The Tribes will never accept Empire rule.

This will end when there's nothing left to fight over, and the stupid pretense of 'peace' was never more than that. A pretense and a lie, designed to give enough breathing room to out form the opponent. No more.

It's getting to be disgusting that people pretend otherwise when they know better.