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Intergalactic Summit

 
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So, where's our war?

Author
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#101 - 2017-03-31 16:59:16 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
They still have a third of our people enslaved, Ms. Leshrac.

Just to throw out a thought; they have a third of our people, they've had them for a long time as we all know and many have resigned to their fate. Our direct ancestors fought for their own freedom with help from outside forces such as the Gallante. They still fought themselves. They wanted their freedom and suffered the conflict that we all benefit from. No I am not saying "well, its their problem." Is fighting for their behalf going to make them want to reintegrate into their ancestral homes? Or would making what we have desirable enough to fight for? We have come a long way, we don't have a long way to go out of necessity but out of duty to show them its worth the struggle our ancestors fought to attain.

To clarify what I'm saying, would war really achieve our goals from the outside? Or would exposing a system rotting from within via example be the best course of action? Theres countless ways to strike your enemy, sometimes a haymaker doesn't work as effective as many jabs.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#102 - 2017-03-31 17:06:08 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
They still have a third of our people enslaved, Ms. Leshrac.


There are those in the Empire who still cling to the old ways. They are rapidly becoming an exception since the decrees of Jamyl I.

I do not personally endorse the stealing of any race so they and their ancestors can atone for imagined sins.

Unless the Empress and or the Theology Council decides to reverse this trend I believe those Matari held in captivity will one day be freed.


We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.

Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#103 - 2017-03-31 18:25:53 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
They still have a third of our people enslaved, Ms. Leshrac.


There are those in the Empire who still cling to the old ways. They are rapidly becoming an exception since the decrees of Jamyl I.

I do not personally endorse the stealing of any race so they and their ancestors can atone for imagined sins.

Unless the Empress and or the Theology Council decides to reverse this trend I believe those Matari held in captivity will one day be freed.


Decrees of Her Majesty Jamyl I have emancipated all slaves from 9th generation. Taking into account average age of childbirth as 30 years, that would be 270 years deep. We can round it to 300 years. Initial occupation of Minmatar worlds happened 700-800 years ago or so. This means that descendants of everyone who were enslaved during initial occupation are now emancipated. They are either normal citizens of the Empire or citizens of the Republic.

Who are then all these minmatar slaves who were left? It is quite simple: the Empire enslaves people for criminal offenses, and this extends to every bloodline, not just Minmatar. There are, of course, mostly Amarr, Minmatar and Khanid slaves - as they are bloodlines that are living (or were living before Minmatar Rebellion) on the territory of the Empire.

The Republic fought - and won its independence. And we, as Caldari, who have paid for our own independence with our blood, respect them for that. But these minmatars who left in the Empire - they aren't people of the Republic anymore. They are criminals, who serve their sentences. And those minmatars who go to war against the Empire to "free" them (in most cases - just kidnap), they are dishonorable and bullying folk, whom we cannot respect.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#104 - 2017-03-31 18:29:23 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
They still have a third of our people enslaved, Ms. Leshrac.


There are those in the Empire who still cling to the old ways. They are rapidly becoming an exception since the decrees of Jamyl I.

I do not personally endorse the stealing of any race so they and their ancestors can atone for imagined sins.

Unless the Empress and or the Theology Council decides to reverse this trend I believe those Matari held in captivity will one day be freed.


Decrees of Her Majesty Jamyl I have emancipated all slaves from 9th generation. Taking into account average age of childbirth as 30 years, that would be 270 years deep. We can round it to 300 years. Initial occupation of Minmatar worlds happened 700-800 years ago or so. This means that descendants of everyone who were enslaved during initial occupation are now emancipated. They are either normal citizens of the Empire or citizens of the Republic.

Who are then all these minmatar slaves who were left? It is quite simple: the Empire enslaves people for criminal offenses, and this extends to every bloodline, not just Minmatar. There are, of course, mostly Amarr, Minmatar and Khanid slaves - as they are bloodlines that are living (or were living before Minmatar Rebellion) on the territory of the Empire.

The Republic fought - and won its independence. And we, as Caldari, who have paid for our own independence with our blood, respect them for that. But these minmatars who left in the Empire - they aren't people of the Republic anymore. They are criminals, who serve their sentences. And those minmatars who go to war against the Empire to "free" them (in most cases - just kidnap), they are dishonorable and bullying folk, whom we cannot respect.


They also still send raiding party's into our space. I've done enough RSS missions to know it's not uncommon.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#105 - 2017-03-31 18:31:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
They still have a third of our people enslaved, Ms. Leshrac.


There are those in the Empire who still cling to the old ways. They are rapidly becoming an exception since the decrees of Jamyl I.

I do not personally endorse the stealing of any race so they and their ancestors can atone for imagined sins.

Unless the Empress and or the Theology Council decides to reverse this trend I believe those Matari held in captivity will one day be freed.


Decrees of Her Majesty Jamyl I have emancipated all slaves from 9th generation. Taking into account average age of childbirth as 30 years, that would be 270 years deep. We can round it to 300 years. Initial occupation of Minmatar worlds happened 700-800 years ago or so. This means that descendants of everyone who were enslaved during initial occupation are now emancipated. They are either normal citizens of the Empire or citizens of the Republic.

Who are then all these minmatar slaves who were left? It is quite simple: the Empire enslaves people for criminal offenses, and this extends to every bloodline, not just Minmatar. There are, of course, mostly Amarr, Minmatar and Khanid slaves - as they are bloodlines that are living (or were living before Minmatar Rebellion) on the territory of the Empire.

The Republic fought - and won its independence. And we, as Caldari, who have paid for our own independence with our blood, respect them for that. But these minmatars who left in the Empire - they aren't people of the Republic anymore. They are criminals, who serve their sentences. And those minmatars who go to war against the Empire to "free" them (in most cases - just kidnap), they are dishonorable and bullying folk, whom we cannot respect.


While yes what you said is true, they still were enslaving after the initial time you speak of, arguably even after they stopped ((i don't know if we're including mission related things)). It isn't that cut and dry.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#106 - 2017-03-31 18:34:18 UTC
I find it extremely unlikely that we can accomplish anything by people trying to argue that enslaving our kin is justified and we should just, like, you know, ignore it, because hey, they probably did something to deserve it.

But I have to admit such arguments are in fact relevant to this thread, so please, go on. I'll be close by, making popcorn.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#107 - 2017-03-31 18:42:47 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
I find it extremely unlikely that we can accomplish anything by people trying to argue that enslaving our kin is justified and we should just, like, you know, ignore it, because hey, they probably did something to deserve it.

But I have to admit such arguments are in fact relevant to this thread, so please, go on. I'll be close by, making popcorn.

I'd like to point out though that I don't justify initial invasion and enslavement of Minmatar tribes. It was as terrible as Elder's attack on Empire core world and the following war that Shakorites started against the Empire. But what happened to Minmatars - I can't really blame Amarr for that, since it happened so long ago, that everyone has died. Yet I can blame Minmatar now for attacking the Empire - since they are alive now.

As for the modern Empire enslavement policies - they are internal Amarr Empire matter, it is their criminal laws and their punishment system. Here in the State slavery is illegal and we don't like it. But it's not for us to say how they in the Empire should or should not regulate the behavior of citizens and visitors inside their territory.

We aren't gallente swines to start wars with neighbors because they used furniture that we don't approve.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#108 - 2017-03-31 18:57:55 UTC
The Minmatar Rebellion was only 138 years ago. Many old-aged Matari living in the Republic were slaves prior to the Rebellion. Many more call those people parent, grandparent, or great-grandparent. The almost total slavery of the Minmatar population is within living memory. So either fix your education or close your mouth, Kim.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#109 - 2017-03-31 19:40:59 UTC
It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.

Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.

Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.

But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.

Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient
Electus Matari
#110 - 2017-03-31 19:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
That is absolutely nonsense. I know no news about raiding parties will turn your head, but at least you have to realize that there's slaves born into slavery. Jamyl freed 9th generation and over, but lower generations remain. It is also unclear whether those reaching ninth will be freed in the future, or if this will remain a gesture.

Also, the last time when the Empire was in an outright war to subdue a population was when the Minmatar Republic was born. That was, as has been pointed out in this thread, less than 200 years ago and in living memory.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#111 - 2017-03-31 19:52:07 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
It is unfortunate that the Empire took steps to enslave innocent peoples as part of assimilating the Empire.

Slavery in this regard is not purely an Imperial issue. Numerous criminal organization enslave for their own reasons. Like the aforementioned raiders.

Slavery is practiced by the Empire still. But again not what were like during our Reclaiming efforts. And certainly not for spiritual reasons.

But again, the Empire has not been at war specifically to reclaim and conquer for nearly 200 years. Those slaves that do remain serve as form incarceration against Imperial Law.


Oh don't even try that. I couldn't swing a dead slaver around this place without hitting nine people who've seen the exact same things I have. Imperial slaver fleets in our space. Breeding facilities. What the Empire was doing honestly back then is just happening under the lie of "Oh no no, it's illegal. Yup. Totes. We're not doing that!" now.

This is one of the reasons I truly loathe the Empire today, it can't even be honest about it.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#112 - 2017-03-31 19:55:30 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:


As for the modern Empire enslavement policies - they are internal Amarr Empire matter, it is their criminal laws and their punishment system. Here in the State slavery is illegal and we don't like it. But it's not for us to say how they in the Empire should or should not regulate the behavior of citizens and visitors inside their territory.
But their illegal actions occur inside our territory. Therefore it is our problem and our right to weigh in on the matter.

Diana Kim wrote:
We aren't gallente swines to start wars with neighbors because they used furniture that we don't approve.

Well, that's not an offensive analogy....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#113 - 2017-03-31 19:58:05 UTC
My point is that now the Empire is not pursuing a campaign of wholesale slavery.

Nor does it officially endorse independent slavers that continue the trade.

As it has been pointed out the current Empress, an Industrialist will probably in engage in economic war with the Republic.

And all perfectly legal under the eyes of CONCORD.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#114 - 2017-03-31 20:03:02 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
My point is that now the Empire is not pursuing a campaign of wholesale slavery.

Nor does it officially endorse independent slavers that continue the trade.

As it has been pointed out the current Empress, an Industrialist will probably in engage in economic war with the Republic.

And all perfectly legal under the eyes of CONCORD.

The fact that the slaver's ships are Amarr military tends to discredit the notion that the Amarr don't endorse those raids. Either that or the Amarr military is corrupt and the Empire needs to clean house.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#115 - 2017-03-31 20:20:32 UTC
I, for one, will not stand here while such outrageous acts are committed.




I shall instead be seated comfortably.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#116 - 2017-03-31 20:25:17 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
My point is that now the Empire is not pursuing a campaign of wholesale slavery.

Nor does it officially endorse independent slavers that continue the trade.

As it has been pointed out the current Empress, an Industrialist will probably in engage in economic war with the Republic.

And all perfectly legal under the eyes of CONCORD.

The fact that the slaver's ships are Amarr military tends to discredit the notion that the Amarr don't endorse those raids. Either that or the Amarr military is corrupt and the Empire needs to clean house.


I am in complete agreement.

The Empire does need to streamline a lot its issues. But when you have an Emperor that can live for nearly 500 years there is very little to be done except outright civil war.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#117 - 2017-03-31 21:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrel Toov
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
My point is that now the Empire is not pursuing a campaign of wholesale slavery.

Nor does it officially endorse independent slavers that continue the trade.

As it has been pointed out the current Empress, an Industrialist will probably in engage in economic war with the Republic.

And all perfectly legal under the eyes of CONCORD.

The fact that the slaver's ships are Amarr military tends to discredit the notion that the Amarr don't endorse those raids. Either that or the Amarr military is corrupt and the Empire needs to clean house.


I am in complete agreement.

The Empire does need to streamline a lot its issues. But when you have an Emperor that can live for nearly 500 years there is very little to be done except outright civil war.

Might do them some good, a civil war.... but I may have some bias on that subject.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#118 - 2017-03-31 21:41:19 UTC
Just as long as you back the right side. Blink

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#119 - 2017-03-31 23:29:02 UTC
Casserina Leshrac wrote:
Just as long as you back the right side. Blink

The "right side" is always a matter of perspective. I'd back the side that would profit my people most.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#120 - 2017-04-01 00:56:28 UTC
Faulty logic there, Diana.

The initial invasion was not the only slave raiding that went on. In fact, the slaving continues to this day, including raiding being undertaken by members of the 24th Imperial Crusade. You can make all the 'they're criminals' claims you like, but Republic citizens who have never been in Imperial space don't really qualify as 'criminals', now do they? Exactly what crime are they committing that the Empire has any jurisdiction to prosecute? What due process is being served by slaving raids?