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So, where's our war?

Author
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#1 - 2017-03-21 11:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar').

While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear."

Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors.

And what do we have to show for it?

Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? The next step is causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire?

I am sure our sisters and brothers still in the darkness rejoiced and complimented his bravery.

Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?
Templar Thal Vadam
Dark Sefrim Six
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2017-03-21 12:00:28 UTC
Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions. That or they just make so much money from the milita wars that a real war is no longer fiscally profitable for any of the four Empires.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#3 - 2017-03-21 12:04:50 UTC
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:
Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions.

This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#4 - 2017-03-21 12:11:12 UTC
I too demand war. Total war. Titan doomsdays obliterating the atmospheres of core world planets. Gene-specific bioweapons. Fleets of Bestower slaver ships raining down on Pator and Luminaire. It matters little if the Chosen lose nine-tenths of the population if the enemy loses ten-tenths of theirs. Such will be the birth pangs of the Blood Age, and God will be glorified in it.

Even so, may the Blood Age come quickly. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Utari Onzo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2017-03-21 12:35:04 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:
Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions.

This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.


Politicians say one thing to get into office, and do another when they get in. What a novel and new concept!

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#6 - 2017-03-21 12:36:38 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Politicians say one thing to get into office, and do another when they get in. What a novel and new concept!

So, your stance is, that since they do it anyway, we should not call them out on it?
Utari Onzo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2017-03-21 12:40:39 UTC
My stance is, is that it's a problem with the Republic's system of Governance, and therefore is your problem. Though I'm not sure how much it continues to be, or will continue to be.

I still think Thal has the right of it, neither side wants war as it pulls the Federation and the State into it as well. Whomever wins, pretty much every nation's common populace loses with a war on that scale.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#8 - 2017-03-21 12:41:54 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
My stance is, is that it's a problem with the Republic's system of Governance, and therefore is your problem.

On this, we are in complete agreement.
Skyweir Kinnison
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2017-03-21 12:44:13 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:
Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions.

This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.



I'm not sure one could describe his appointment as 'running for office.' He was, if I recall, 'elected' unopposed and with a very small turnout.

The Sanmatar appears to be a dictator, in the sense that he wields largely untrammelled power with the consent of a docile tribal oligarchy. If he changes his mind about policy, it is not put to the people for a mandate.

Obviously, as a democrat, I consider this an unsatisfactory approach to running the Republic. Nonetheless, the Minmatar as a whole seem to be comfortable with the arrangement (not speaking of the many who prefer representation here in the Federation as a matter of choice). If so, you can hardly be annoyed if he simply changes his mind about the realpolitik. Surely that sort of pragmatic and immediate decision making is one of the few strengths of dictatorship?

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Utari Onzo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#10 - 2017-03-21 12:44:54 UTC
Then this has been a productive conversation! I wish you luck in being the umpteenth* pilot to call for total war for the last decade or so.

*a completely scientific number I assure you.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2017-03-21 12:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuwei Sung
I should imagine that Sanmatar Shakor took an earnest look at his peers, Executor Heth and Empress Sarum, and came to understand the fate of populist autocrats who fail to perceive when to step back from their ambitions.
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#12 - 2017-03-21 12:45:21 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Templar Thal Vadam wrote:
Perhaps the leaders of our respective nations do not really desire a death toll in the hundreds of billions.

This would be a fine argument, if the Sanmatar had not pretty much ran for office with the contrary opinion.


Well, which is better ?

A politician that runs on a pro-war agenda, defeats all rival pro-war politicians and opposition to the idea of war, causes everyone to fall into line, and then doesn't act on that war agenda ?

Or, a politician that does act on that agenda ?

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#13 - 2017-03-21 12:51:57 UTC
Louella Dougans wrote:
Well, which is better ?

A politician that runs on a pro-war agenda, defeats all rival pro-war politicians and opposition to the idea of war, causes everyone to fall into line, and then doesn't act on that war agenda ?

Or, a politician that does act on that agenda ?

It depends on whether that war would be justified and winnable.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2017-03-21 13:02:46 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Louella Dougans wrote:
Well, which is better ?

A politician that runs on a pro-war agenda, defeats all rival pro-war politicians and opposition to the idea of war, causes everyone to fall into line, and then doesn't act on that war agenda ?

Or, a politician that does act on that agenda ?

It depends on whether that war would be justified and winnable.


And on both counts the answer here is no.

so its probably for the best that this shakur fellow has stopped beating the war drums
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#15 - 2017-03-21 13:08:53 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

It depends on whether that war would be justified and winnable.


And on both counts the answer here is no.

so its probably for the best that this shakur fellow has stopped beating the war drums

We could argue on those answers; I have always held yes for justified and I think we at least had a stellar opening last midyear and after. Might have botched it already, of course.

However, let's concentrate on your other point. What I find interesting about that is that when Shakor has stopped, so seems to have everyone else. When Midular was still in power, there were plenty of people calling out for the war. There were even those who were willing to engage in terrorism and incite a civil war over the issue. Where are all those people now? Was it, after all, never about fighting for freedom, but rather about seeing their man on the top?
Maria Daphiti
Suotaa Jastua Iristaa
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#16 - 2017-03-21 13:17:32 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
Was it, after all, never about fighting for freedom, but rather about seeing their man on the top?


Of course.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2017-03-21 13:20:07 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:

However, let's concentrate on your other point. What I find interesting about that is that when Shakor has stopped, so seems to have everyone else. When Midular was still in power, there were plenty of people calling out for the war. There were even those who were willing to engage in terrorism and incite a civil war over the issue. Where are all those people now? Was it, after all, never about fighting for freedom, but rather about seeing their man on the top?


Because people are easily pacified, the republic is probably in the best shape it could be. at least for the time being, it has already over extended its resources when it comes to actually being able to take care of more people. I've seen it first hand, with the overflow who are being failed heading outside the empires, or to the federation.

a token gesture was made, some key victories where achieved. and the populace is satisfied, now is the time to rebuild and secure the position not to push for more. even if war where declared today, and even if by some miracle the republic won. it would be the death of the republic because it simply does not have the infrastructure or capacity to deal with such a massive surge in population when it can barely take care of the people it has now.

as for the capsuleers who fell silent, i suspect thats because they had already fought their war, and they had lost.
are there any matari loyalist alliances left? electus matari is gone from what i've heard, and ushra'khan is a shadow of its former self. meanwhile CVA stands like a monolith in providence with no real signs of them toppling any time soon.

the calls for war have fallen silent because to continue them is to write our own funeral song.
Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#18 - 2017-03-21 13:20:18 UTC
Skyweir Kinnison wrote:
The Sanmatar appears to be a dictator, in the sense that he wields largely untrammelled power with the consent of a docile tribal oligarchy.

Obviously, as a democrat, I consider this an unsatisfactory approach to running the Republic.

Well said.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
#19 - 2017-03-21 13:20:29 UTC
Elsebeth Rhiannon wrote:
It's been almost ten years since Malaetu Shakor stepped into office as the Republic's prime minister (later 'Sanmatar').

While more patient minds cautioned against it, many clans supported him, because he made them promises of new glory, of a full-out war at last, the final throwing off our shackles. At his inaugural speech, he seemed confirm their hopes: "Sons and daughters of Matar, make no mistake about it. [---] Let it be known from this day forth that we are a race of warriors, not slaves, and that we will fight to the last drop of blood for what we hold dear."

Almost a decade. Not slaves but warriors.

And what do we have to show for it?

Oh, we have fought the Militia wars. We have even won it, for a short while, and some of us have metal to show for it. But where was the push on from that victory? The Empire was in turmoil, we held the field, slaves were returning and turning into warriors, and then what? The next step is causing a controversy with his choice of companion and attire?

I am sure our sisters and brothers still in the darkness rejoiced and complimented his bravery.

Where is our war, Sanmatar Shakor?


Where is our war? The moment has yet to come. Shakor is not stupid and won't drop us into a fire we will only blister in instead charr. Our war has not arrived yet leaving us with ample time to improve our art as warriors. Hes picking our battle so we don't have to fight another war after it. This isn't the rebellion anymore, we have time to prepare, we have time to train, we have time as an ordinance we can use. Strike while the irons hot and behold a crafted blade, a masterpiece, strike while it smokes and recieve a shattered blade.
Yuwei Sung
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2017-03-21 13:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuwei Sung
A better explanation would be that they are now divided and unable to clearly focus on what they want. During times of peace, crying for war is an easily understandable and potent message. But the limbo of the current limited conflict, which is difficult for many average people to understand in full, makes it difficult to articulate what they feel is wrong.
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