These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Watch Lists in High Sec

Author
Wanda Fayne
#121 - 2016-12-02 04:25:32 UTC
Locator agents have a service cost. Obviously not FREE intel.
It might be cheap to many but that ISK sink is good for the economy too.

"your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic" -Lan Wang-

  • - "hub humping station gamey neutral logi warspam wankery" -Ralph King-Griffin-
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#122 - 2016-12-02 04:39:02 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kara Hawke wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kara Hawke wrote:
More QQ'ing from the high sec gankers who can't fill up their kill boards as quickly with noob frigate and Indy kills. Why don't you go to low wh and null for pvp? Oh yeah.. because you'll actually get shot at there.

More shitposts from behind forum alts who are afraid of catching a war.

Post on your main and I might give you a real response.


Exactly why I post on an alt. My mains corporation is already in one never ending harassment war from precisely the kind of tool the OP and possibly you are.


And yet, no one wardecs me.... I wonder why?

I used to shiptoast all the time and always expected to get something for it. Now I'm npc corp immune muahuahuhauha! aka just came back thanks to alpha and haven't gotten around to joining a corp yet.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#123 - 2016-12-02 05:10:23 UTC
Wanda Fayne wrote:
Locator agents have a service cost. Obviously not FREE intel.
It might be cheap to many but that ISK sink is good for the economy too.

It's not even cheap. If you have 10 war targets in different locations, 2 of whom are online you end up running 16 locators on the offline characters, just to verify that they're offline and 2 on the online ones (assuming they don't leave the location they were located in). That's 4.5 million isk every time you want to find war targets even when you only have 10.

That's already exceeding the practical limitations of locators since they (contrary to popular belief) are extremely limited in availability and have long cooldowns. The net result is that trying to find a single online war target just using locator agents without knowing which targets online takes literally hours even if you assume locators are an infinite resource, which they aren't.

Wasting time trying to do that when 95% of your locators will lead you to offline characters, which you still need to scout and locate again to confirm their on/offline status is simply not worth doing, hence the upturn in camping and downturn in literally everything else.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#124 - 2016-12-02 05:52:49 UTC
Oddball idea ... how about asking your friendly level 4 locator agent (for a substantially higher fee) the name and location of the last character from a corporation that moved and is (a) locatable, (b) online?

I shall elaborate: why a character that moved? Because otherwise, people would just leave their character logged in in station. Therefore, the last character to dock/undock somewhere might provide more useful data.

Why locatable and online? Because we don't want to hear John Doe was the last guy from corp X reported docking/undocking but your agent can't tell you where. That'd be counter intuitive and counter productive.

Why "any character from a given corp" ? Because you can't be expected to start guessing who might be online- so you send out a global search for anyone in that corp and get the first report (the last character spotted) that comes up. Makes sense, no?
Salvos Rhoska
#125 - 2016-12-02 09:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Ive never liked watchlist in the first place.

I find if invasive of my privacy, in principle, that anyone, anywhere, can see when Im online. Instantly. and for free.
Imo, its none of their goddam business. I also hate this on facebook and other social media.
When Im online, its between me and CCP. I have a contract with them to login to their service, not with the rest of EVEs players.

Having said that, I have no problem whatsoever with people using ingame methods such as locator agents to ascertain that, or to find where I am. They are investing ingame time, effort, skills and isk to do so. Once Im logged in, Im "free" game for the rest of EVEs players, per the unwritten but implicit social contract we all share in that we all fly in the same virtual universe.



The distinction is thin, but important. And Ive always been against free information in all of EVE, because I have a slightly oblique perspective to most people on the nature/consequences of something being free as opposed to requiring effort/investment. Especially something so incredibly valuable as information.

The unknown presents far more opportunity/risk, than the known. The known can be weighed, unknown can only be estimated.
When intel is universally available, it diminished its value. Id much prefer that intel was something that only those that have investigated those unknowns, at their own risk/effort, can profit from.

I also hate free killboard data, and especially the universal market data. Id remove them both given the choice. Dotlan style data im quasi ok with, since it is already so prevalent in the ingame map options.

Im for that kind of hardcore EVE. Where those that take effort/risk to brave the unknown, can benefit from the intel they accrue, rather than it being universally free.



Im against return of a free universal watchlist system.
Im all for changes to locator agents, or new player detection methods, as long as they require effort/4ime/skill/isk ingame.
Ill leave it up to more conniving/creative minds to figure out a system that is fair/equitable and cannot be unduly exploited.

I hope some solution can be found to widen the distinction between Pirates and Merc Corps, and possibly to enable Privateering and return the long-lost Bounty Hunters into the game.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#126 - 2016-12-02 09:13:40 UTC
Kara Hawke wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Kara Hawke wrote:
More QQ'ing from the high sec gankers who can't fill up their kill boards as quickly with noob frigate and Indy kills. Why don't you go to low wh and null for pvp? Oh yeah.. because you'll actually get shot at there.

More shitposts from behind forum alts who are afraid of catching a war.

Post on your main and I might give you a real response.


Exactly why I post on an alt. My mains corporation is already in one never ending harassment war from precisely the kind of tool the OP and possibly you are.

I have been posting on my main on and off for maybe 8 odd years . never once have I worried about retaliation with WD''s, from GD. I own what I say. I'm also a hard target to catch even with a watch list. posting on a forum alt is cowardly if you are attacking someone verbally . but what the alt says is more important.
Salvos Rhoska
#127 - 2016-12-02 09:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
malcovas Henderson wrote:
I have been posting on my main on and off for maybe 8 odd years . never once have I worried about retaliation with WD''s, from GD. I own what I say. I'm also a hard target to catch even with a watch list. posting on a forum alt is cowardly if you are attacking someone verbally . but what the alt says is more important.


Same. This is is my "main" or oldest account and the one I post with.
I believe in atleast that degree of transparency/accountability when participating in important discussions with the community at large. Gotta be able to stand behind ones words.

Someday I'll finally form a corp, just to see how many WDs I accrue from years of GD posting.
radkid10
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2016-12-02 11:13:44 UTC
DioKahn wrote:
The changes to Watch Lists have affected highsec wars and mercenary work. It's almost annoying just looking for a war target. Camping Jita is not my idea of fun. Locator agents say the same thing whether the target is offline or not. I understand protecting capital pilots in null sec has been the goal of the changes but it's making War boring. I suggest you keep Watch Lists disabled in NULL SEC and working perfectly again in HIGH SEC. Bring back real mercenaries and content to high sec please.


screw high-security space go do PVP where it's supposed to be done

picking on people that cannot fight for themselves it's just a stupid idea in the first place

you make more money out of 0.0 and you get more combat out there

you should join pandemic horde we accept everyone

our home system currently at the moment is number 1 on industry and PVP

our population in our system is greater than most of the trade hubs in the game

we have Brave and brave newbies right next to us which you can kill all day and we're beating the crap out of Circle of two with pandemic Legion right now

we also do small-scale fleets as well
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2016-12-02 11:27:57 UTC
radkid10 wrote:


screw high-security space go do PVP where it's supposed to be done


That would be everywhere. EVE is a PVP game. All of it is a PVP arena.

Quote:
picking on people that cannot fight for themselves it's just a stupid idea in the first place
This is assuming that the only wardecs in highsec happen against people that can't fight. Don't make dumb assumptions.

Quote:
you make more money out of 0.0 and you get more combat out there
What is it they call it when you do something for money? Oh yah, work. I prefer to play, thank you.

ā€œSome capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.ā€ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2016-12-02 11:43:52 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
Its funny the complaints over the watch list. Real mercenary work before watch lists involved stalking your prey, with a combination of espionage and agent locators. Forming a group and go hunting.

What you describe as camping Jita is nothing more than KB fluff aka stat padding. Almost close to griefing - but not quite. At least the low sec pirates put up a tent to roast their prey. Poor excuse for a merc corporation if camping Jita is what you have to resort to.

Why don't you go on a roam like the mercs of old did? The ones who were paid for an objective.

It's really not that hard to track someone down in the game without the watchlist.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2016-12-02 13:59:15 UTC
I try not to be in the habit of repeating what others have said, so I'll just post this https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=479121

Read it. Read ALL of it.

Years ago I argued against the watchlist on these forums because I felt it needed counterplay. Since it lacked that, I said I wanted it to go. Cue "careful what you wish for", because it's gone but Ralph, Lord Raz, and the Devils Rejects have made me a convert.

(yes it IS possible to convert some people's opinions on the internet, articulating a good point goes a long way towards that)

Trying to track down people in EvE is exceedingly difficult work. Even when the watchlist was in play, it was time-consuming and took dedicated work to track down and destroy a target. Merc corps like the Devils are like a modern day cruise missile - they exist to strike and devastate a small, precise area. And the watchlist was an important tool they needed in order to execute their contracts. Again, how do you strike against a corp that scatters to the four winds and alters their playstyle as soon as the wardec drops?

Like it or not, their playstyle needs to be defended. ALL playstyles need defended - the more people playing the game, the more immersive and amazing the collective experience is. And any inference that small, elite, precise-striking corps don't belong in EvE does a disservice to us all.

Let me be clear about this - I'm not a friend of any Devils nor do I know any of them personally. And I'm more likely to be on the receiving end of their business than employing it. But this game needs a lot less people leaving because their way of EvE life just got patched out of existence. So yes, even if I end up getting podded by Ralph someday, I will defend his playstyle and the role he plays in the large ecosystem of EvE online.

I've been on the receiving end of a hundred wardecs. Unfortunately I've never been in a corp that worked well under them. Most of them eventually disbanded, as is by design. But yes, it doesn't matter what work you do to track down and scout targets before a wardec. The dec changes everything. You know what I used to do, back when the watchlist existed and I got wardeced? I had the only resource available to counter the watchlist intel - a computer I could leave logged in. So I did. Every day at uptime, I'd find a random system, get to a safe spot, cloak up, and stay in there all day while I went about my life. Sometimes I'd randomly change systems or jump clone so if they ran locates, they might think I'm on the move. So what does your scouting beforehand do about that? Nothing, that's what.

I believe they need and deserve more tools at their disposal. To their credit, they're not asking for all that much. F- that. I believe EvE would be a much better place when there's a lot more tools in the sandbox for everyone to find creative uses for. I want them to have a limited watchlist that only works on pilots undocked and in k-space (so docking and wormhole diving becomes counterplay). I want them to have locator agents say the target is on or offline, but also give ship information so they know what they're looking for. I want locator agents to work faster and not have a "cooldown" time.

EvE has room for improvement, and the more tools that are in the sandbox, the better off we all are. We should be *expanding* the available playstyles in EvE (highsec merc, smuggler, pirate, etc), not diminishing them.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#132 - 2016-12-02 14:22:41 UTC
radkid10 wrote:
DioKahn wrote:
The changes to Watch Lists have affected highsec wars and mercenary work. It's almost annoying just looking for a war target. Camping Jita is not my idea of fun. Locator agents say the same thing whether the target is offline or not. I understand protecting capital pilots in null sec has been the goal of the changes but it's making War boring. I suggest you keep Watch Lists disabled in NULL SEC and working perfectly again in HIGH SEC. Bring back real mercenaries and content to high sec please.


screw high-security space go do PVP where it's supposed to be done

picking on people that cannot fight for themselves it's just a stupid idea in the first place

you make more money out of 0.0 and you get more combat out there

you should join pandemic horde we accept everyone

our home system currently at the moment is number 1 on industry and PVP

our population in our system is greater than most of the trade hubs in the game

we have Brave and brave newbies right next to us which you can kill all day and we're beating the crap out of Circle of two with pandemic Legion right now

we also do small-scale fleets as well

*checks killboard.

Yep, there's always a reason for tears. Nice Drake loss not too long ago and no solo kills at all.

Th World needs F1 monkeys too, and yep that means you clearly can't fight for yourself.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2016-12-02 15:19:25 UTC
London Spy wrote:


It's really not that hard to track someone down in the game without the watchlist.



Feel free to try.
Zanar Skwigelf
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#134 - 2016-12-02 15:56:29 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
In RL hunter works without anyone notify him 'your target woke up and is leaving it's den'. In Rl you NEED to know who are you hunting BEFORE you start.

Recent (not really 'recent' tho) changes made EVE 'hunters' feel what real hunters can feel.

I don't see much problems here.


Ironically 3/4 of the RL hunters I know use the "Jita" method of hunting. They sit in a shack 50 yards from a corn feeder and wait for deer to come by looking for a snack.

Don't even get me started on cameras mounted on trees. (they're like scout alts lol)



I know I'm several pages late to this, but the correct term for these people are "tree fishermen"
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2016-12-02 16:14:45 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:


It's really not that hard to track someone down in the game without the watchlist.



Feel free to try.


I do it, its called scouting. Fortunately zkillboard makes it very easy to track operational areas down. Day or two of hunting and if you get lucky you might find their base of operations along with active members, ships and fits.

That's not including locator agents. Too many entitled wanting to be spoon fed instead of working for it. I've done it many years ago it and do it since i've returned to the game.

A little elbow-grease goes a long way. If anything its easier now with the statpadding on zkillboard than it used to be with a 3000 online player count.

You all have the tools which weren't there when the 'bitter vets' started.

The ones that moan are the ones without objectives.

Normally if you take up a contract you get the operational area information. If you make them scatter, thats half the battle won as there is strength in numbers. It makes hunting gangs a worthwhile thing.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#136 - 2016-12-02 16:31:33 UTC
"Mercenary" corps were station huggers in 2013 when the watch list was still a thing, and so I must conclude that their only gripe is the loss of free intel. Though to be fair, I do see more Mercenary corp pilots flying away from hubs today than I ever did when the watch list existed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#137 - 2016-12-02 16:56:55 UTC
London Spy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:


It's really not that hard to track someone down in the game without the watchlist.



Feel free to try.


I do it, its called scouting. Fortunately zkillboard makes it very easy to track operational areas down. Day or two of hunting and if you get lucky you might find their base of operations along with active members, ships and fits.

That's not including locator agents. Too many entitled wanting to be spoon fed instead of working for it. I've done it many years ago it and do it since i've returned to the game.

A little elbow-grease goes a long way. If anything its easier now with the statpadding on zkillboard than it used to be with a 3000 online player count.

You all have the tools which weren't there when the 'bitter vets' started.

The ones that moan are the ones without objectives.

Normally if you take up a contract you get the operational area information. If you make them scatter, thats half the battle won as there is strength in numbers. It makes hunting gangs a worthwhile thing.


This is a pure fantasy.

What really happens is you spend hour after hour chasing people not even logged into the game and chasing ghosts is not fun for anyone. What people want is to simply not waste their time hunting targets that don't even exist and right now there is no tool that will tell you if a player in online or not.

It not about being lazy, its about having gameplay that actually works. Mercs and bounty hunters got shafted when watchlists were removed, its only right that they should have a tool that allows them to hunt people actually playing EVE.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2016-12-02 17:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:


It's really not that hard to track someone down in the game without the watchlist.



Feel free to try.


I do it, its called scouting. Fortunately zkillboard makes it very easy to track operational areas down. Day or two of hunting and if you get lucky you might find their base of operations along with active members, ships and fits.

That's not including locator agents. Too many entitled wanting to be spoon fed instead of working for it. I've done it many years ago it and do it since i've returned to the game.

A little elbow-grease goes a long way. If anything its easier now with the statpadding on zkillboard than it used to be with a 3000 online player count.

You all have the tools which weren't there when the 'bitter vets' started.

The ones that moan are the ones without objectives.

Normally if you take up a contract you get the operational area information. If you make them scatter, thats half the battle won as there is strength in numbers. It makes hunting gangs a worthwhile thing.


This is a pure fantasy.

What really happens is you spend hour after hour chasing people not even logged into the game and chasing ghosts is not fun for anyone. What people want is to simply not waste their time hunting targets that don't even exist and right now there is no tool that will tell you if a player in online or not.

It not about being lazy, its about having gameplay that actually works. Mercs and bounty hunters got shafted when watchlists were removed, its only right that they should have a tool that allows them to hunt people actually playing EVE.


Hunting ghosts lets you find out alts too. Real mercs could work without it, bounty hunters I will give you that. But if you are really after a bounty, thats what locators are for. If you really are a connected merc corp you should have a network of tracers at your disposal. At least any worth their salt would do that.

It sounds like you want to just shoot unaware haulers all day.

If you are truly 'mercing' you will roam around and go into enemy territory, whether high low or null. And with the watch list, you discover that your target is docked? then what? Smack him in local?

Do you log on just to watch the watchlist ping and then do nothing?

Come now, im not the one living in fantasy land. I'm living in this is how its done. You will not get lucky the moment you undock every time.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2016-12-02 17:09:56 UTC
London Spy wrote:


Hunting ghosts lets you find out alts too.


Nope, you find nothing 99% of the time.

London Spy wrote:

Real mercs could work without it


No they can't. It is not fun gameplay trying to find the 4 online guys in a 130 man corp under the current system.

London Spy wrote:

, bounty hunters I will give you that. But if you are really after a bounty, thats what locators are for.


They don't tell you if they are online or not, this is the problem you wind you chasing endless targets that are simply not there.


London Spy wrote:

If you really are a connected merc corp you should have a network of tracers at your disposal. At least any worth their salt would do that.


Again, they don't tell you if the target is online and the chances are far greater that they are not online.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2016-12-02 17:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:


Hunting ghosts lets you find out alts too.


Nope, you find nothing 99% of the time.

London Spy wrote:

Real mercs could work without it


No they can't. It is not fun gameplay trying to find the 4 online guys in a 130 man corp under the current system.

London Spy wrote:

, bounty hunters I will give you that. But if you are really after a bounty, thats what locators are for.


They don't tell you if they are online or not, this is the problem you wind you chasing endless targets that are simply not there.


London Spy wrote:

If you really are a connected merc corp you should have a network of tracers at your disposal. At least any worth their salt would do that.


Again, they don't tell you if the target is online and the chances are far greater that they are not online.


Thats a problem how?

Because then you can work out a pattern of log in times. Seriously, i dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but you need to put work in - thats what you get paid for.