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Watch Lists in High Sec

Author
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#81 - 2016-12-01 11:29:38 UTC
imagine that, you actually have to do work now to get your kills. its not hard to find your enemy as they have specifics, it just takes a degree of intelligence and specialization that most in eve lack. Real world experience that I have, have caused corporations and alliances to topple with out me even firing a round, its not often I do it, only to those that make my list.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#82 - 2016-12-01 12:23:51 UTC
Agondray wrote:
imagine that, you actually have to do work now to get your kills. its not hard to find your enemy as they have specifics, it just takes a degree of intelligence and specialization that most in eve lack. Real world experience that I have, have caused corporations and alliances to topple with out me even firing a round, its not often I do it, only to those that make my list.


Go try it, you will find you end up spending almost all of your time chasing ghosts. This is why mercs are now mostly found in the trade hubs waiting for their targets to come to them.
Scipio Artelius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2016-12-01 12:27:07 UTC
Agondray wrote:
Real world experience that I have, have caused corporations and alliances to topple with out me even firing a round, its not often I do it, only to those that make my list.

Name one.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2016-12-01 12:29:16 UTC
Agondray wrote:
it just takes a degree of intelligence and specialization that most in eve lack.


Tell me, have you ever killed anything without help from CONCORD?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Salvos Rhoska
#85 - 2016-12-01 12:40:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Changes have increasingly reduced Merc Crops, as essentially "Corps for Hire" content providers, to simple piracy.
Its blurred the lines between Mercs and Pirates, and reduced the common denominator to mass WDs and trade hub camping.



Mercs fulfill the three core qualities in my PVP vs PVE diagram in my sig, and introduce PVP outwards to affect all the peripheral PVE activities in fulfillment of their contracts. So, ofc, do Pirates, but Mercs are contracted for the specific ends of their services purchasers.

As basically "Corps for Hire", they should be considered central content creators that embody aggressive capitalist values of EVE, especially for non-combat corps to hire to explode/impair the operations of their competing corps when they dont have the expertise/firepower to do so themselves, to protect their own operations, additional expert firepower, or ofc just for good old settling of vendettas.

This may, or may not, include AWOX/infiltration service, but again, as Mercs are a Corp for Hire, the purpose would be specific, and contracted, whereas Pirates are not..

Pirates are indiscriminate, Mercs are hired. Pirates are a universal risk, Mercs are specific.
Its sad this distinction is being lost between two very different kinds of content/service.



This distinction is age old in RL history, along the lines that Mercs are loyal to highest bidder, whereas Pirates are loyal to none.
It is a shame this dichotomy is being eroded in EVE. Both Mercs and Pirates have changed history, according to their different modus operandi, this would be wise to include and represent in EVE.

Both Pirate and Merc organisations have historically risen to such size, wealth and prominence as to influence the course of history. This should be possible in EVE too, rather than systemically impaired by mechanics.

Especially since hiring a Merc Corp makes sense as the natural counter to Pirates.

Much of the these same mechanics issues are also impeding other related potential professions, such as Privateers and the long-lost Bounty Hunters. Both are squished out of the meta.



I cant speak with any authority/experience on suggestions how to remedy this, but to my mind the underlying issue is clear and valid as a concern for CCP consideration.

There are two concurrent threads exploring this issue in greater detail from different angles to be found here for those who want to know more:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6630762#post6630762
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6695072#post6695072
Hrist Harkonnen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2016-12-01 12:45:03 UTC
DioKahn wrote:
The changes to Watch Lists have affected highsec wars and mercenary work. It's almost annoying just looking for a war target. Camping Jita is not my idea of fun. Locator agents say the same thing whether the target is offline or not. I understand protecting capital pilots in null sec has been the goal of the changes but it's making War boring. I suggest you keep Watch Lists disabled in NULL SEC and working perfectly again in HIGH SEC. Bring back real mercenaries and content to high sec please.



So you have to work to get PVP now? Damn that must suck not having easy targets handed for you.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2016-12-01 12:46:34 UTC
Hrist Harkonnen wrote:
DioKahn wrote:
The changes to Watch Lists have affected highsec wars and mercenary work. It's almost annoying just looking for a war target. Camping Jita is not my idea of fun. Locator agents say the same thing whether the target is offline or not. I understand protecting capital pilots in null sec has been the goal of the changes but it's making War boring. I suggest you keep Watch Lists disabled in NULL SEC and working perfectly again in HIGH SEC. Bring back real mercenaries and content to high sec please.



So you have to work to get PVP now? Damn that must suck not having easy targets handed for you.


Let us know when you've ever shot at anything ever, so we can take your opinion on finding targets seriously.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2016-12-01 12:58:29 UTC
Hrist Harkonnen wrote:
DioKahn wrote:
The changes to Watch Lists have affected highsec wars and mercenary work. It's almost annoying just looking for a war target. Camping Jita is not my idea of fun. Locator agents say the same thing whether the target is offline or not. I understand protecting capital pilots in null sec has been the goal of the changes but it's making War boring. I suggest you keep Watch Lists disabled in NULL SEC and working perfectly again in HIGH SEC. Bring back real mercenaries and content to high sec please.



So you have to work to get PVP now? Damn that must suck not having easy targets handed for you.


I take it you enjoy hunting players not even online?
Drunk Gatekeeper
Doomheim
#89 - 2016-12-01 13:18:50 UTC
Honestly, the entire war deck feature is dumb. Come out into null sec, jesus. If you want to kill miners that bad, at least go ahead and suicide kill them.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2016-12-01 13:23:31 UTC
Drunk Gatekeeper wrote:
Honestly, the entire war deck feature is dumb. Come out into null sec, jesus. If you want to kill miners that bad, at least go ahead and suicide kill them.


Sorry, but even if you really are a nulseccer disguised as an NPC corp newbro, the elitist argument is not an argument against PVP in high sec, even if miners are the only targets, which they are not, so grow up.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Drunk Gatekeeper
Doomheim
#91 - 2016-12-01 13:28:04 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Drunk Gatekeeper wrote:
Honestly, the entire war deck feature is dumb. Come out into null sec, jesus. If you want to kill miners that bad, at least go ahead and suicide kill them.


Sorry, but even if you really are a nulseccer disguised as an NPC corp newbro, the elitist argument is not an argument against PVP in high sec, even if miners are the only targets, which they are not, so grow up.



"pvp" Roll
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2016-12-01 13:46:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Drunk Gatekeeper wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Drunk Gatekeeper wrote:
Honestly, the entire war deck feature is dumb. Come out into null sec, jesus. If you want to kill miners that bad, at least go ahead and suicide kill them.


Sorry, but even if you really are a nulseccer disguised as an NPC corp newbro, the elitist argument is not an argument against PVP in high sec, even if miners are the only targets, which they are not, so grow up.



"pvp" Roll


PVP = player vs player. It covers any and all competition between two or more players. There are many different kinds of PVP, including combat, trade, and even mining, as multiple players contend for limited resources. I don't expect the small mind of an F1 nulbear to really understand this concept, but it doesn't really matter. What matters is you still haven't made an argument against the wardec mechanics for highsec, which can also be beneficial to certain operations in lowsec, including taking R64s from nulsec alliances in, oh, Khanid and Kor-Azor, for example.

But we're talking specifically about PVP combat, aren't we. Well, mate, I've fought in high, low, nul, and wh. I've done it all. Quite literally all of it. I've fought in 1000+ man battles taking orders like a typical F1 monkey, I've FC'd small fleets against much larger NC. fleets and stomped them, and I've flown solo taking on small gangs. These days, I stick to low, and I prefer solo - it's more exciting. Even losing a ship is more of a thrill than that anticlimactic moment when you get alpha'd off the grid in a nul fight. No one comes out to fight in nul without a few hundred of their buddies at their back, and I'm free to shoot at who I want, when I want. But make no mistake, if nul is your only experience of PVP, than I know vastly more about it than you do. You know all those ships your FCs tell you to fly? I'm one of the guys who figures out the fits for you.

Yes, the PVP in highsec is just as relevant as what you do in nul, but for different reasons, and at the end of the day, defenders in highsec will always have more control over the direction of any given wardec should they have enough of an understanding of the mechanics. They had this advantage before watchlists were removed, and now have even more of one.

I'm starting to think one particular little nulbear is just sad he can't mine in peace in highsec between evenings of FCs power tripping and barking orders at him on the line. Maybe he needs to HTFU.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#93 - 2016-12-01 14:03:52 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Agondray wrote:
it just takes a degree of intelligence and specialization that most in eve lack.


Tell me, have you ever killed anything without help from CONCORD?


yes but im not that one pulling the trigger just providing the ace intell with out agents and without spies.

If I named one of the more recent ones they'd be hunting me but after providing intel to a few grieifers, over 5b of ships were lost in less than 48 hrs for the war decd side.

Ive worked in the real world as Military Intel and Tactical Operations, dealing with real enemies in the combat zones is good work when you never get a convoy blown up, or a heli shot down, after that its easy to do the same in eve.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2016-12-01 14:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Agondray wrote:

Ive worked in the real world as Military Intel and Tactical Operations...


Stolen Valour is a federal offence.

It's that, or 'Military Intel' is an oxymoron. Someone needs to teach you how to use apostrophes.

My father is a Lt Colonel in the Royal Australian Army, 1 Aviation, Cabarlah Barracks, Operations Commander of SigInt/ComInt for the entire country. Tell me more about 'military intelligence', please. I would love to hear your perspective.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Othran
Route One
#95 - 2016-12-01 14:10:31 UTC
Regardless of how anyone feels about highsec wars, location agents need some dev attention.

They are pretty much unchanged in the last decade and given the effort it takes to get a decent agent I think they could use a buff.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2016-12-01 14:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Othran wrote:
Regardless of how anyone feels about highsec wars, location agents need some dev attention.

They are pretty much unchanged in the last decade and given the effort it takes to get a decent agent I think they could use a buff.


It's like the OP suggested. If capital pilots are so afraid of people tracking them using watchlists, that's fine, they can go. But it needs to be balanced. Just have locator agents not just tell you where people are, but also whether or not they're online, but then, as the OP said, disable them for nul - Empire space only. They can already do this, as is evident when you use a locator and it comes back with no result because the player is in a wormhole. Just do the same for nul. Let the capital-bears have their safe space. Unless they come to low, and then they're in Empire space, and able to be located.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#97 - 2016-12-01 14:20:53 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Agondray wrote:

Ive worked in the real world as Military Intel and Tactical Operations...


Stolen Valour is a federal offence.

It's that, or 'Military Intel' is an oxymoron. Someone needs to teach you how to use apostrophes.

My father is a Lt Colonel in the Royal Australian Army, 1 Aviation, Cabarlah Barracks, Operations Commander for SigInt/ComInt for the entire country. Tell me more about 'military intelligence', please. I would love to hear your perspective.


Oh so we have a military brat here. Ok, US Army 11 years, been to a number of bases and worked as Enlisted in Tactical Operations and Military Intelligence in an Warrant Officer slot since 08.

Gather Intel on everything and know how to use it against them. Rather its manpower, weapons, vehicles, it doesn't matter.

Took out a cliff camp that had a heavy machine gun set up, ran 2 Blackhawks and 2 Apaches below the cliff side to dampen noise until they swept around to the base of the slope going up to drop soldiers, while another 2 Apache started engress routes taking out the Machine gun that has a 4km effective range from 8kms and starting initial runs while the other 2 Apache joined in. 0 soliders injured, 0 aircraft battle damage.

Anyone can suck up to get rank, so take your stolen valor else where and go back to school before they call your parents.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith

Galaxy Mule
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#98 - 2016-12-01 14:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Galaxy Mule
I think making the watchlist work in Highsec only is a fine idea. Can anyone actually give a reason as to why it isn't, or are we all just going to personally attack the OP and scream about "post with your main!"?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2016-12-01 14:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Agondray wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Agondray wrote:

Ive worked in the real world as Military Intel and Tactical Operations...


Stolen Valour is a federal offence.

It's that, or 'Military Intel' is an oxymoron. Someone needs to teach you how to use apostrophes.

My father is a Lt Colonel in the Royal Australian Army, 1 Aviation, Cabarlah Barracks, Operations Commander for SigInt/ComInt for the entire country. Tell me more about 'military intelligence', please. I would love to hear your perspective.


Oh so we have a military brat here. Ok, US Army 11 years, been to a number of bases and worked as Enlisted in Tactical Operations and Military Intelligence in an Warrant Officer slot since 08.

Gather Intel on everything and know how to use it against them. Rather its manpower, weapons, vehicles, it doesn't matter.

Took out a cliff camp that had a heavy machine gun set up, ran 2 Blackhawks and 2 Apaches below the cliff side to dampen noise until they swept around to the base of the slope going up to drop soldiers, while another 2 Apache started engress routes taking out the Machine gun that has a 4km effective range from 8kms and starting initial runs while the other 2 Apache joined in. 0 soliders injured, 0 aircraft battle damage.

Anyone can suck up to get rank, so take your stolen valor else where and go back to school before they call your parents.


Now that we've got the epic rant out of the way, I'm going to point out a simple fact of reality.

Your military experience, if I had any reason to believe your claims, is irrelevant. Your military intelligence experience doesn't just translate that way into EVE, and you haven't done in EVE what you claim you've done. I don't believe you work in military intelligence, especially for eleven years, because if you did, you'd be taking your spelling and grammar far more seriously than you do. Yes, even on these forums, because it would be a point of pride for you to maintain clear and succinct communications skills, a vital skillset for anyone that wants to make sure that the intel they are delivering is clear and concise, with zero room for error. For example: engress? There's no such word. There is 'ingress', insertion, or 'egress', extraction. Soliders? Dude, you know those little red squiggly lines that appear under words every now and again? They're not just there to make them look pretty.

I, on the other hand, have a lot of experience with military intelligence, which is why I know this, and how I can easily pick up on lies like yours, and the many others you've told in this thread. For the record, it doesn't take a military intel specialist of any kind to gather intel in EVE. If you think you're something special, think again.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Estuary Algaert
Petulant Luddite GmbH
#100 - 2016-12-01 15:11:46 UTC
I like not having watchlists, in small scale conflicts it was a two way highway of free information that made hunting a pain and avoiding conflict stupidly simple. Yes, I like to know that the 20 man corp we wardeced is all online before we go looking for them... but it is also so much nicer that they don't know that we are online coming to kill them.

With the way things are currently, I would like it if locator agents mentioned if the target was online and maybe a lowering of cost.