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Appear in space like citadels.

So, I took out my calculator again to look at fuel costs for some example cases and here is what I think:

For T2 and T1, it just doesn't work. It works for larger groups or super-rich people because they can take a EC, run all modules 24/7 and then upscale the usage until the now fixed costs are dealt with. In all other cases, it turns out fuel cost for running services is barely offset by the ME and TE bonuses you can rig the structure for when compared to a NPC-station.

So what if I can get 5-6% ME on building a T2-cruiser, if the fuel costs double- or tripple the costs of what I just saved? It actually makes more sense in most cases to build everything in a NPC-station since the station doesn't need fuel.

All those fancy bonuses in most cases are directly eaten up by the fuel costs. Best case scenario, onlining costs for service modules are negligible and you can turn off what you don't need. In that scenario, you can probably find some small niche and wring something out of the EC. Worst case scenario, onlining costs are like for Citadel-services, incredibly high. In which case having a EC means you have three medium sized towers in terms of fuel consumption. Not really feasible for small-time operators.

The only part where the EC wins hands down is in T3 production, since you can't build T3-ships and subsystems in NPC-stations, so there will always be a fuel-cost associated with them. In this case the higher bonuses of the EC can compete with a POS, but only if you can run it 24/7 or if you can feasibly switch the service module on and off depending on need.

Right now this is quite bad. Take my example from before, for example: If you want to build your own components, you add a fuel cost of around 36 million ISK in fuel to the building cost of every Damnation. In my example, I used my skills and used EVE Industry to get some numbers about building costs. With 290 million ISK in costs for materials used in T2-components, a HighSec-EC with T2-ME rig can save about 10,44 million ISK.

A T2-TE rig can (in HighSec) reduce the fuel costs by about 1/3rd, which results in about 12 million ISK saved. If I combine both, I could build the components for a Damnation about 22,44 million ISK cheaper than in a NPC-station. On the other hand, when I take fuel costs into account I'm actually wasting nearly 14 million ISK more than when building in a NPC-station.

I'm sure there are many less damning examples possible, but this one thing alone shows using a EC makes only sense outside of HighSec, where the higher bonuses slowly overtake the higher costs caused by fuel consumption. Looking at the difference caused by the fuel costs, it looks like NullSec and W-Space could barely make it to zeroing out.

The 10% station-tax is laughable when compared to fuel costs. Either CCP massively raises costs of manufacturing and research in NPC-stations, or most people will waste tons of money until they notice how much fuel they need to build and research anything and then just stop using ECs.

Of course, the EC is still good for T3-invention and -production, but that's about it. T2 and T1 production are so burdened by the fuel costs every solo- or small-scale industrialists is basically unable to compete. Heck, even if using a public EC is a possibility, it still means you're forced to tie yourself down near a EC specialized to what you want to build. And if that EC goes down or is replaced by one using other rigs, your entire operation grinds to a halt.

To be competitive with NPC-stations, the fuel costs need to be reduced enormously. Even in my very simplified example, the fuel costs would need to be at least halved before it makes economically sense to use the fancy new space factory instead of your boring old NPC-station.

Anyway, if the fuel costs don't go down, my little industry alt will either stay in station, or I'll at best try a EC specialized for T3-production. Since in T3-production I at least won't compete with zero fuel cost stations.


Edit:

Someone on the other page suggested throwing out the weird 25% bonus to engineering service module consumption and instead giving every medium EC a flat 5 blocks per hour consumption, instead of the 20 (15 with the EC-bonus) we have now.

That's a great idea and would immediately erase all problems I've talked about in that wall of text above!

Utter bollocks. Nothing about a "sandbox" guarantees that everything should be affordable and efficient for every player. Just about any gameplay change that yields a net reduction in capability would be "anti-sandbox" under this self-serving nonsense. If we extend your method of thinking to its ultimate conclusion, the mere existence of an economy would be"anti-sandbox". Why won't the game give me the freedom to whelp a dozen titans every weekend? Why is CCP limiting my interactions in the game? I thought this was a SANDBOX!




My first reaction to this was that it was going to be a problem for me. It's just that my second reaction was to start thinking about how I'm going to solve that problem for myself. Seems pretty sandboxy to me.

Here is a summary of that i discussed with my friends.

1) Oversized
I dont want to buy and pay for a high-rise building if i just want a small house. These structures are designed to be used by a large ammount of corporations and thier players. Small corporations and solo players will have no interest in that.

2) Economy
The most people stopped running thier POS because of the cost for the fuel. Secondly the big industry changes which has also an impact to the production & research on station makes own station nearly worthless. WIth the new changes you even need more pos fuel to run the structure.

3) Efficiency
CCP will take the bonuses away and you have to think really carefully what rigs you choose. You can run your business with one engineering complex but your are very limited. A small organisation with a few people probably will need at least 2-3 of them. So the monthly costs in fuel are damn high and u have to take care of the logistic and stuff.

4) Why you have an own structure
Many players have the same question like we do. After the industrial patch own structures were pretty much useless, not complete. There is no real difference, bonus and benefit to stations any more if you own a structure. Even with the new complex. Small bonus to ME & PE and thats all. For what price?

5) So i got my faction tower
CCP had enough time to find a solution for that and its not the first time that people asking this question. What happens with my faction tower and other stuff when the patch goes live? Now in the devblog i see nothing what could compensate the faction tower and the money we all spend in this.

As an industrial oriented player i am waiting for an big update for years now. If i see what we get in november than im getting sad really quick. Collecting feedback? Ok. But we all know ccp so the most things will come as you see it in the devblogs.

Just my cents
TopTrader

Snipped for brevity (you make a well reasoned argument)

Have you considered comparing:

Guy who runs multiple EC in order to get the specialized rig bonuses on each component
vs
Guy who runs one EC to specialize in the most optimal component and builds the rest unbonused
vs.
NPC stations?

I wonder if you will find the person with the partially specialized MEC being cost competitive with someone eating fuel costs for being specialized in more components.

I don't think it's even remotely unintentional that the new design means you can't trivially build everything with an optimal bonus, and I think it's probably a good thing.

At present I build basically... everything. T1 ships and modules. T2 ships and modules. T2 components. T1 and T2 capital modules. T1 and T2 fighters/drones. Fuel. Structures and structure components. T1 and T2 rigs. I have a look at the market, decide what I'm building next, and seamlessly transition to that without a second thought.

Thing is, everyone else can (and does) do this, too. If there's a supply shortage, it will be erased overnight - usually to excess. Component construction is largely vertically integrated because most people feel that the added margin exceeds the opportunity cost (And it's trivial to make another alt). T1 overproduction, in particular, is rampant.

Adding some inertia to the system could curtail some of this and make for a healthier industrial economy, overall.

The thing is, if you have an organization able to stem the fuel costs, everything is great. A small or solo-operation runs into gigantic trouble though. The guy who runs multiple EC already has lost if he can't scale his operation up to the point the fuel costs of multiple super-large towers (a medium EC with all three services +25% bonus applied equals 45 blocks per hour, a bit more than a normal large POS) can be somehow integrated into his business-model. It would probably take dozens of alts and more hours than a day has to deal with this.

Specializing the most optimal component is what I basically did in my example already, since a medium EC makes it impossible to not specialize.

NPC-stations are the winner in most cases because the 10% station tax is a bad joke. It makes your installation costs 10% higher, while fuel costs of a medium EC alone are high enough to make you choke. Take that Damnation for example: When trying to get the most optimal EC-build to reduce building costs, the fuel costs where always high enough to make building Damnations in a medium EC a huge loss operation.

It's kind of bad when you can save tons of money by not using the fancy new space factory.

Uh, with your numbers, nothing changes: If you make something cost less fuel, but let it run longer, the end cost is the same. Your "inefficient" module makes things take longer, but every user has the same operation costs.

You could even argue your cheap module is even worse, because now you force people to waste both ISK and time.

~Potentially~ that might all be nice and cool.

But the reality is cruel. As long as anyone see a russian-speaking alliance at their doorsteps, they set timers for late EUTZ at best or for early USTZ at worst. Which is midnight to morning for RUTZ. With POSes they can a) kite timers and b) reinforce on Thursday/Friday to have timers on the weekend. Sov warfare is a bit harder, as the former is not possible and the later works only for low ADM systems - but it works. It is a known fact that everyone "love" Fozziesov. It is also a fact that POS warfare was fine since Dominion. Yet, the new structures copy-paste all timezone issues from Fozziesov, without even offering a workarounds like ADMs. It bogs my mind. Furthermore, those issues are multiplied, as there is no more weekend timers - vulnerability schedule spans a week, not a day.

Believe me, it will be mirrored. Russians will set their timers for early day hours. And all those ~potential~ interactions will only be relayed to ****posts on reddit and eve-ru.com

The numbers are just made up, make it even just 50% more but the concept still stand.

And for small entity I don't simply mean the High Sec solo industry guy, I also mean the small WH corp that just need to build the stuff it need to rat and pvp. Moving let's say 20 fuel / hour (14.400 a month) is different than moving 90 fuel / hour (64.800), assuming you have research, invention, shipyard and equipment assembly, all thing imo needed in a WH.