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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#341 - 2016-10-11 18:43:26 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
@CCP Fozzie

Also, when are you planning to iterate on Citadel/EC [in]vulnerability mechanics? I've heard a lot of discontent about it from many sources. For example, people outside of major time zones (AUTZ and RUTZ specifically) feel like they're going to lose a lot of content after POS warfare is gone.


People are discontent that they can't attack something 24x7 when there are no defenders to defend it

I wouldn't expect a lot of potential iteration on that. A major design goal of the structures were that the choice of when a structure gets attacked goes to the defender as there is no gameplay for the defender relative to the attacker having it shot in an off timezone scenario. While there is an aspect of "reduced gameplay" for the attacker, it is also gameplay where there is no defender in many, if not most cases. CCP stated they wanted increased interaction at the expense of this "gameplay" and made it so that the attacker has to be inconvenienced (potentially) in order to engage a defender when they likely will be present. The extended vulnerable hours on the EC and other potential future structures makes interaction with them more likely compared to a citadel which is designed to be the home base of a defender.

~Potentially~ that might all be nice and cool.

But the reality is cruel. As long as anyone see a russian-speaking alliance at their doorsteps, they set timers for late EUTZ at best or for early USTZ at worst. Which is midnight to morning for RUTZ. With POSes they can a) kite timers and b) reinforce on Thursday/Friday to have timers on the weekend. Sov warfare is a bit harder, as the former is not possible and the later works only for low ADM systems - but it works. It is a known fact that everyone "love" Fozziesov. It is also a fact that POS warfare was fine since Dominion. Yet, the new structures copy-paste all timezone issues from Fozziesov, without even offering a workarounds like ADMs. It bogs my mind.

Believe me, it will be mirrored. Russians will set their timers for early day hours. And all those ~potential~ interactions will only be relayed to ****posts on reddit and eve-ru.com


Sounds like you should make friends with some Russians to strike at them while you sleep :)
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#342 - 2016-10-11 18:46:12 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
So, I took out my calculator again to look at fuel costs for some example cases and here is what I think:


Snipped for brevity (you make a well reasoned argument)

Have you considered comparing:

Guy who runs multiple EC in order to get the specialized rig bonuses on each component
vs
Guy who runs one EC to specialize in the most optimal component and builds the rest unbonused
vs.
NPC stations?

I wonder if you will find the person with the partially specialized MEC being cost competitive with someone eating fuel costs for being specialized in more components.


I don't think it's even remotely unintentional that the new design means you can't trivially build everything with an optimal bonus, and I think it's probably a good thing.

At present I build basically... everything. T1 ships and modules. T2 ships and modules. T2 components. T1 and T2 capital modules. T1 and T2 fighters/drones. Fuel. Structures and structure components. T1 and T2 rigs. I have a look at the market, decide what I'm building next, and seamlessly transition to that without a second thought.

Thing is, everyone else can (and does) do this, too. If there's a supply shortage, it will be erased overnight - usually to excess. Component construction is largely vertically integrated because most people feel that the added margin exceeds the opportunity cost (And it's trivial to make another alt). T1 overproduction, in particular, is rampant.

Adding some inertia to the system could curtail some of this and make for a healthier industrial economy, overall.


This is not what is happening, though. There are a lot of people and industry corps in game who can deal with paying fuel costs for multiple large towers. This means they can simply shrug and use multiple ECs to wring the maximum amount of bonus for their production out and everything will stay roughly the same for them.

At the bottom though, there is a huge amount of solo players and small corps who can't deal with the suddenly quadruppling fuel costs. For them, the only alternatives are POS-towers until they are taken away or NPC-stations.

CCP is basically telling us you're not allowed to have your own structures if you aren't either super-rich or part of a large corp. Smaller corporations? Solo-industrialists? Tough luck, go play another game!
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#343 - 2016-10-11 18:48:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Skia Aumer wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
@CCP Fozzie

Also, when are you planning to iterate on Citadel/EC [in]vulnerability mechanics? I've heard a lot of discontent about it from many sources. For example, people outside of major time zones (AUTZ and RUTZ specifically) feel like they're going to lose a lot of content after POS warfare is gone.


People are discontent that they can't attack something 24x7 when there are no defenders to defend it

I wouldn't expect a lot of potential iteration on that. A major design goal of the structures were that the choice of when a structure gets attacked goes to the defender as there is no gameplay for the defender relative to the attacker having it shot in an off timezone scenario. While there is an aspect of "reduced gameplay" for the attacker, it is also gameplay where there is no defender in many, if not most cases. CCP stated they wanted increased interaction at the expense of this "gameplay" and made it so that the attacker has to be inconvenienced (potentially) in order to engage a defender when they likely will be present. The extended vulnerable hours on the EC and other potential future structures makes interaction with them more likely compared to a citadel which is designed to be the home base of a defender.

~Potentially~ that might all be nice and cool.

But the reality is cruel. As long as anyone see a russian-speaking alliance at their doorsteps, they set timers for late EUTZ at best or for early USTZ at worst. Which is midnight to morning for RUTZ. With POSes they can a) kite timers and b) reinforce on Thursday/Friday to have timers on the weekend. Sov warfare is a bit harder, as the former is not possible and the later works only for low ADM systems - but it works. It is a known fact that everyone "love" Fozziesov. It is also a fact that POS warfare was fine since Dominion. Yet, the new structures copy-paste all timezone issues from Fozziesov, without even offering a workarounds like ADMs. It bogs my mind. Furthermore, those issues are multiplied, as there is no more weekend timers - vulnerability schedule spans a week, not a day.

Believe me, it will be mirrored. Russians will set their timers for early day hours. And all those ~potential~ interactions will only be relayed to ****posts on reddit and eve-ru.com



I don't think there are Russians at the entrance to his wormhole - which sums up the division in these posts. CCP thining Alliances and a large portion of the player base thinking small corp & individual.

This update along with other this year are great for big entities but crap on solo and small corp play.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#344 - 2016-10-11 18:53:04 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
But the reality is cruel. As long as anyone see a russian-speaking alliance at their doorsteps, they set timers for late EUTZ at best or for early USTZ at worst. Which is midnight to morning for RUTZ.
...
Believe me, it will be mirrored. Russians will set their timers for early day hours. And all those ~potential~ interactions will only be relayed to ****posts on reddit and eve-ru.com

Sounds like you should make friends with some Russians to strike at them while you sleep :)

Want to kill an Astrahus?
Form a coalition!
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#345 - 2016-10-11 18:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


It's kind of bad when you can save tons of money by not using the fancy new space factory.


Not a very strong argument, for two reasons:

First of all, there's always going to be a break-even point below which the fuel cost is not worth it. Plenty of people "save tons of money" right now by not owning a fancy space factory POS because their production volume doesn't justify the fuel cost. This is absolutely not a new quality of ECs, it's merely a quantitative alteration.

Secondly, your argument said nothing about USING the fancy new space factory - it says something about OWNING one.

People have been incessantly conflating those two things throughout the entire thread. You can use an EC without owning one, and it could very likely be an economical option.

This whole can't-use-it-unless-I-own-it thing is a mental hurdle people need to get the **** over already.


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point. As a player, I would like to own a small factory of my own. CCP however made this obnoxiously hard, since I'd need more friends who play EVE first and soon my entire free time would be eaten up by organizing an entire industrial corporation when all I wanted was a fancy space factory.

Now you could argue I could still own one, just not a productive one, but producing with a huge loss isn't fun either. Besides, using other peoples ECs runs into the problem of finding the right one for what you want to do. Industrial players can be flexible, but no-one is probably keen on becoming a nomad to always be where the EC for your next project is located.

If you can even find the right one in the first place. P

Edit:

On the break-even point for fuel costs, you are exactly right! It's just until now, the ceiling for fuel costs was a moderate 10 blocks per hour for a small POS-tower. With the same functionality, it's now 45 per hour! Quite the difference. Together with higher base costs to get at least a medium EC and modules and rigs in the first place, a lot of players are now basically priced out of their playstyle.

My point was, forcing players to stop playing is a bad thing for a MMO. So having those higher costs for starting up is a bad thing. Sure, you can stay in stations or use other people's ECs, but for many, that's not the same thing as having your own center of operations.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#346 - 2016-10-11 18:55:50 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


This is not what is happening, though. There are a lot of people and industry corps in game who can deal with paying fuel costs for multiple large towers. This means they can simply shrug and use multiple ECs to wring the maximum amount of bonus for their production out and everything will stay roughly the same for them.


Uh... so you're saying that because it doesn't effect every last producer, the effect doesn't exist? Roll

It doesn't matter if there are some organizations that can just go ahead and absorb that hit - supply reduction is supply reduction (And you're really overstating both the quantity of those orgs and their contribution to public markets). That's called a "competitive advantage".

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#347 - 2016-10-11 19:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Owen Levanth wrote:


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point.


These are the same folks who go to the hardware store and buy power tools that collect dust in their garage because, even though they haven't actually used a tool since high school shop class, they just really want a table saw, right?

Quote:
Now you could argue I could still own one, just not a productive one, but producing with a huge loss isn't fun either.


Actually, you could still quite easily own a productive one - you'll just have to make some concessions. Do you need both labs and a factory in a single structure? Sure, you can have it right now and it all costs the same, but do you really NEED one? Could you not outsource any of those activities at all?

There's no doubt that it's a departure from the status quo, but pretending like it's some insurmountable hurdle is utterly insipid.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#348 - 2016-10-11 19:04:08 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


This is not what is happening, though. There are a lot of people and industry corps in game who can deal with paying fuel costs for multiple large towers. This means they can simply shrug and use multiple ECs to wring the maximum amount of bonus for their production out and everything will stay roughly the same for them.


Uh... so you're saying that because it doesn't effect every last producer, the effect doesn't exist? Roll

It doesn't matter if there are some organizations that can just go ahead and absorb that hit - supply reduction is supply reduction (And you're really overstating both the quantity of those orgs and their contribution to public markets). That's called a "competitive advantage".


Those operations can just produce more to replace the loss in supply. Nothing is preventing them from doing this! The only effect in the long run is a lot of players will stop participating in industry when they notice they'll never be able to have their own thing until they get a couple dozen more friends.


Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#349 - 2016-10-11 19:04:56 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point.


These are the same folks who go to the hardware store and buy power tools that collect dust in their garage because, even though they haven't actually used a tool since high school shop class, they just really want a table saw, right?



There are some people who want to buy a table saw and put it in the garden shed.

This is not being able to buy the table saw unless you also have a workshop, warehouse and administration building even tho the one in the garden shed still works
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#350 - 2016-10-11 19:07:16 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point.


These are the same folks who go to the hardware store and buy power tools that collect dust in their garage because, even though they haven't actually used a tool since high school shop class, they just really want a table saw, right?


In this analogy, those people would really like to use the table saw, but the saw needs 45 blocks of frozen gas to fuel it for every hour it runs. The people who can't pay for 45 blocks of frozen gas are told they can use the table saw of their neighbors, though.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#351 - 2016-10-11 19:07:23 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:

On the break-even point for fuel costs, you are exactly right! It's just until now, the ceiling for fuel costs was a moderate 10 blocks per hour for a small POS-tower. With the same functionality, it's now 45 per hour! Quite the difference. Together with higher base costs to get at least a medium EC and modules and rigs in the first place, a lot of players are now basically priced out of their playstyle.

My point was, forcing players to stop playing is a bad thing for a MMO. So having those higher costs for starting up is a bad thing. Sure, you can stay in stations or use other people's ECs, but for many, that's not the same thing as having your own center of operations.


Something to consider. It's really only 15. You don't *need* to do invention and research at your manufacturing EC. In fact, you could argue it is wildly cost-prohibitive to think you need to pay 15 block/mo to invent when you can do it far far cheaper at an NPC station with total safety. Same for research. Yes, you lose a significant time bonus but it would seem that in your example of the small/solo producer, that can mostly be absorbed/managed in exchange for far less cost to run the EC making it very comparable to a small POS.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#352 - 2016-10-11 19:10:34 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:

On the break-even point for fuel costs, you are exactly right! It's just until now, the ceiling for fuel costs was a moderate 10 blocks per hour for a small POS-tower. With the same functionality, it's now 45 per hour! Quite the difference. Together with higher base costs to get at least a medium EC and modules and rigs in the first place, a lot of players are now basically priced out of their playstyle.

My point was, forcing players to stop playing is a bad thing for a MMO. So having those higher costs for starting up is a bad thing. Sure, you can stay in stations or use other people's ECs, but for many, that's not the same thing as having your own center of operations.


Something to consider. It's really only 15. You don't *need* to do invention and research at your manufacturing EC. In fact, you could argue it is wildly cost-prohibitive to think you need to pay 15 block/mo to invent when you can do it far far cheaper at an NPC station with total safety. Same for research. Yes, you lose a significant time bonus but it would seem that in your example of the small/solo producer, that can mostly be absorbed/managed in exchange for far less cost to run the EC making it very comparable to a small POS.



Do you think if I asked them really nicely the sleepers in the C3 would put up a NPC station for me to research my blueprints
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#353 - 2016-10-11 19:16:34 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:

On the break-even point for fuel costs, you are exactly right! It's just until now, the ceiling for fuel costs was a moderate 10 blocks per hour for a small POS-tower. With the same functionality, it's now 45 per hour! Quite the difference. Together with higher base costs to get at least a medium EC and modules and rigs in the first place, a lot of players are now basically priced out of their playstyle.

My point was, forcing players to stop playing is a bad thing for a MMO. So having those higher costs for starting up is a bad thing. Sure, you can stay in stations or use other people's ECs, but for many, that's not the same thing as having your own center of operations.


Something to consider. It's really only 15. You don't *need* to do invention and research at your manufacturing EC. In fact, you could argue it is wildly cost-prohibitive to think you need to pay 15 block/mo to invent when you can do it far far cheaper at an NPC station with total safety. Same for research. Yes, you lose a significant time bonus but it would seem that in your example of the small/solo producer, that can mostly be absorbed/managed in exchange for far less cost to run the EC making it very comparable to a small POS.


OK, let's go outside of HighSec for a moment, where there aren't tons of NPC-stations and public ECs available at every corner. Let's say you want to build T3-ships even. No go read what Iowa Banshee said
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2016-10-11 19:17:17 UTC
I'm glad that the argument in favour of these new structures boils down to: "But do you really NEED it?"

That's exactly the kind of positive argument to make.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#355 - 2016-10-11 19:17:52 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point.


These are the same folks who go to the hardware store and buy power tools that collect dust in their garage because, even though they haven't actually used a tool since high school shop class, they just really want a table saw, right?


In this analogy, those people would really like to use the table saw, but the saw needs 45 blocks of frozen gas to fuel it for every hour it runs. The people who can't pay for 45 blocks of frozen gas are told they can use the table saw of their neighbors, though.



No, the table saw needs 15. The table saw, MIG welder, drill press, router, power washer, sand blaster, and bandsaw, in aggregate, cost 45, and the guy in question could actually get by with a hand saw and a tape measure...

...but he WANTS the toys.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#356 - 2016-10-11 19:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Rob Kaichin wrote:
I'm glad that the argument in favour of these new structures boils down to: "But do you really NEED it?"

That's exactly the kind of positive argument to make.



Uh, that's pretty much at the heart of a game where you're supposed to have to make decisions, and it's not a new thing. A lot of people DON'T actually need it. Hell, I see ridiculous money-sink control towers all over the place.

If you care about efficiency, you probably ask yourself that question a lot. I've occasionally pulled my tower down and gone NPC because I didn't really feel like doing enough production for a bit to warrant the fixed costs.

The inverse of that is that it would be clearly the correct choice 100% of the time, which is obviously horrible gameplay.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#357 - 2016-10-11 19:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Owen Levanth
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


Your own mental hurdle seems to be that for some people, owning a fancy space factory is the entire point.


These are the same folks who go to the hardware store and buy power tools that collect dust in their garage because, even though they haven't actually used a tool since high school shop class, they just really want a table saw, right?


In this analogy, those people would really like to use the table saw, but the saw needs 45 blocks of frozen gas to fuel it for every hour it runs. The people who can't pay for 45 blocks of frozen gas are told they can use the table saw of their neighbors, though.



No, the table saw needs 15. The table saw, MIG welder, drill press, router, power washer, sand blaster, and bandsaw, in aggregate, cost 45, and the guy in question could actually get by with a hand saw and a tape measure...

...but he WANTS the toys.



I've calculated this through with only 15 blocks per hour, by the way. As long as you can't amortize the fuel costs, you're still building everything with a huge loss. Except for T3-production! T3-production doesn't have to compete with NPC-stations, therefore there is no way to just go to a station and save money.

For every small-scale industrialist with a working calculator, going into T3-production will make sense, since the fuel cost is unavoidable anyway.

My main problem is with T1- and T2-production. So to advance your analogy, you notice how the table saw can saw one type of table very, very well but is absolute utter dreck at every other kind of table. So you resign yourself to use your table saw with that one type of table forever...

Also I want to point out how messed up it is to complain about people wanting shiny toys in a video game. A game's purpose is to have fun and to have shiny toys to have fun with. "You don't need it!" is only technically right: We don't need shiny toys. We don't need games. We don't need EVE.

I suggest to CCP to avoid a marketing strategy in this vein, though.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#358 - 2016-10-11 19:41:37 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
No, the table saw needs 15. The table saw, MIG welder, drill press, router, power washer, sand blaster, and bandsaw, in aggregate, cost 45, and the guy in question could actually get by with a hand saw and a tape measure...

...but he WANTS the toys.

You folks go round in circles.
- I want to build stuff!
- Here is your EC
- But 104 rigs too difficult!
- Buy XL
- But I'm poor!
- Use public
- But my freedom!
- Use stations
- Inefficient!
- POS is your choice then
- Outdated!
- Go buy items in the market and deal with it
- But I want to build stuff!

This is a new structure, it gives you new choices. If your cannot handle making choices, then industry might not be your thing, and EVE itself might not be your game either. I like the direction where it goes. Great design plan, hope it works out. It needs some corrections (mentioned earlier, not going to repeat it here), but in general this iteration looks really good.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2016-10-11 19:49:57 UTC
"Eve might not be your game either"

I always admire this line of thought.

"You may be veterans, and you might be experienced, and you might be any number of other things, but because you don't like this idea, Eve is not your game."

Personally, I think that if you've been playing Eve for longer than few months, Eve probably is your game, and that perhaps it's not unreasonable to speak up in your area.

(Or perhaps I'm not stupid enough to not play the trend through to its conclusions: the more people you expel as "not fit for Eve", the less people you get to play with. In the end, you end up with one guy in his own little world, celebrating a game that's perfect for him, but no-one else).

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#360 - 2016-10-11 19:52:17 UTC
Needs & Wants

In a C3 WH I have a POS with LSAA. SMA, Component, Equipment , Drone & ammo arrays. research labs, gas, ore refining & compression Array. (there was a cap ship array but I moved that out after using it).
I anchor, un-anchor, online & offline them as they are needed for market conditions. I have built Rorquals, Carriers, Orcas and a myriad of ships, modules, ammo & rigs.

I want something to replace this 2-1/2 billion ISK investment and I could stretch to about 5 billion to cover my needs

1) - What do I need?
2) - How much will it cost?

After i Find this out will I feel like I've been shafted by CCP ?