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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#281 - 2016-10-11 12:06:50 UTC
God forbid there be an actual problem in my design, it must be the fault of the users.

Said no IT specialist ever.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2016-10-11 12:11:52 UTC
will no one think of the poor idiot who has been abusing a broken game mechanic forever and now feels entitled to it
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2016-10-11 12:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Max Trix
Quote:
Eve certainly isn't for everyone.


Certainly, but CCP does themselves no favours by only catering to one concept of how to play the game.

The tree of viability begins to look more like a telephone pole.
Babbet Bunny
#284 - 2016-10-11 12:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Babbet Bunny
Pros:
Everything in one place and not having to juggle materials through different hangers to complete build jobs.

Cons:
Medium-Rigs too granular- see above. Would need 3-4 structures to do what I do now effectively at at 9-12 times the fuel cost and 4 times the initial investment.

Large- Would need two to do what I do now and costing 10 times more, plus 4 times the fuel cost.

XL-Now I can do what I do now in a medium POS for just 50b plus.....

1 week to unanchor- Ignore the war dec argument as that is just the cost of doing business, but if you are not moving your tower often to take advantage of lower indexes you are losing out on margin.

Why lease out lines? I prefer the savings of going to unused systems and take advantage of the low index.

A 0.1% index system saves you 90% over a 1% index system. My operation can move the index from 0.1 to 3-4% in three weeks. Never install a capital research job in anything, but a flat system even if it is 0.1%. It will save you billions in install costs. Get rid of indexes and these may have a chance to work as cooperative ventures.
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2016-10-11 12:17:20 UTC
also "well im getting docking, asset safety, internal markets, the ability to contract in the structure and have stuff couriered to it...but there is a DOWNSIDE compared to the current system HOW DARE YOU SIR"
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2016-10-11 12:46:30 UTC
Heh, I liked it.

Anyway, to get back on topic, could someone from the team explain what has changed between Crius and now to make the reasoning for the Thukker CAA invalid?

LS capital producers will still produce capitals in LS, and NS outposts will still remain with their ludicrous bonuses. What exactly has changed for CCP to remove the viability of building Caps in LS?
ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#287 - 2016-10-11 13:07:16 UTC
Removed Several Off Topic Post, A Few Rants, and a Quitting Post.

ISD Max Trix

Lieutenant

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to EVE mails about forum moderation.

Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2016-10-11 13:15:54 UTC
Ah well, I think that's a fitting commentary on how CCP thinks.

If you don't fit in, you're gone.

Anyway, could we get some CCP action in here? I'd like to see a deeper explanation of how they've structured these systems.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2016-10-11 13:17:06 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Opner Dresden wrote:
The docking restrictions are goofy and unintuitive to players. They should be Small, Medium, Large for consistency. I'm disappointed that CCP continues to push pilots into mega-alliance groups and encourage blue donut mentality by forcing the choice of coffining players in supers or joining those who can afford a Keepstar.

Today, you can store and build a supercapital in a 2b isk POS... now it's a 30b+ structure with no ability to store them? This is a horrible shift of power to larger groups.


Requiring a 30b+ structure to even build these ships, with huge vulnerability on top, hopefully means that super caps will become a bit more rare again over time. The ease with which you can build them today is kind of silly really. It should be the larger groups who have the power to build and wield these ships. That's the payoff for their investment into owning sov.

No longer can you throw down 20 relatively cheap POS's to keep your enemy guessing which one has a capital in build. Now you have to throw down a really expensive one and everyone can see what you're building there. I only see positives here. Less supercaps and more conflict drivers. There's really very little reason to attack an armed Keepstar. There will be ample reason to attack an armed Sotiyo.

I don't like bolded part. EVE being EVE only loses when you remove spying aspect from it.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#290 - 2016-10-11 13:18:45 UTC
Not had time to fully get to grips with all the connotations yet but it seems like some of the rig bonuses should be on tech I and II modules rather than on so many rigs. I would say that the rigs should affect general traits like fuel consumption (improved power cells), improved time costs (enhanced job control mainframes etc).
Mikael Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#291 - 2016-10-11 13:19:34 UTC
I like these new structures. Now, in HS, if you want to manufacture on POS, you need to plan your jobs around 1d, so when the wardec comes, the jobs finish before the war and you have time to evac without losing anything. (Or you just dont bother and cancel all jobs and take the loss) But with these new structures you will be able to have more than 7d long jobs. And when the war comes, you just click deliver before armor timer and the asset safety will care for the rest. Or you create contract to some non corp alt that will haul the things out of the structure. Ok the structure wil be blown up. But not a big deal.

But I would change the M manufacturing rigs a bit. I would join the ME and TE together, like the L rigs, BUT I would increase the calibration of T2 M manufacturing rigs to 200. (Or maybe reducing the calibration of the M structure to 350 might be better) So on M EC you will be able to manufacture 3 goups of things well or just 2 very well. If someone will want to do T2/T3 stuff, he will put up anoter structure for the invention and copy.

Second thing I would change are the L lab rigs. I would join ME and TE to one rig, Invention and copy to second rig. But the cost reduction will have its own rigs. So one who does T2/T3 stuff will be able to have best ME&TE for 2 groups + he will be able to invent and copy in one structure. No cost reduction for invent and copy nor best time reduction, but no need to fly around. I think its ok to ask this from a 5,2B + rigs structure.

All in all I like the changes. Just the M manufacturing rigs need some love so they are less limiting and maybe the L lab rig change.
Jawen Serce
Les Petits Pedestres
Toilet Paper.
#292 - 2016-10-11 14:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jawen Serce
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jawen Serce wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Jawen Serce wrote:
Still nothing about SMALL sizes of those strctures ?


Why would there be anything about SMALL sizes of those structures? They're not happening.

It's not like they just haven't gotten around to making a dev blog about it just yet - they're not a thing. They're not a planned thing. They've never been a planned thing. They've never said anything to suggest that will ever be a planned thing.

Small structures are mobile depots and MTUs and the like.

Did i ever say in my post that there were any planned thing about small sizes of those structures ?
I'm poiting out a fact :
POSs will at the end, disapear, and with this disappearance, a whole part of the players will not be able to plant their tent anywhere they want in the game. To do that, they will need to have a huge amount of ISK (minimum 5b -ish ISK) and social relations to defend it properly.

Clearly not a thing anymore for little group of players or a solo player, unless they/he got the ISK and relations.


You're sort of arbitrarily increasing the investment by almost a full order of magnitude. They're certainly more than a small POS, but no, the minimum is no where near "5b-ish".

There's always going to be an affordability barrier where an organization is just TOO small and TOO casual for a structure to be viable. That's not necessarily a horrible thing.

Bear in mind that the POS model essentially meant that you must have your own structure to take advantage of one. You couldn't feasibly just go use someone else's equipment assembly array to run a few jobs. That's not the case under the new structure model, and it will likely be the case for a lot of tiny organizations that other-people's-structures are the best option for them.

It seems pretty obvious that a shift away from, "This-here is my manufacturing POS where my one-man alt-corp can optimally build anything/everything conceivable," is an intended consequence of this.

I was refering to a Medium Citadell cost from hull to modules, to rigs, and services.
5b-ish, it is roughly the price for an Astrahus well fitted (with T2 rigs).

But the question is not really the cost.
When we think about it, is what CCP wants for his game.
And the answer is clearly : nomore solo player / small entities thing.

I personnally think that it's a very bad idea for a game calling itself a "Sandbox".
You don't force people to socialise in a sandbox, you persuade them to.
Here CCP is clearly forcing solo players or small entities to use wealthier people's / bigger entities' platforms/stations.

If it can be seen as an annomaly for solo players or small entities to be able to manufacture anything anywhere (your words), which i'm agree on, to a certain extent, it would've been way smarter from CCP to use other subtle ways to reduce this possibility while still maintaining the whole "adventure" thing we love in Eve Online.

I'm not talking specificly about manufacturing gameplay actually, i'm talking about the whole idea of "housing" / "sturcture" in this game.
And what CCP is clearly showing, is that they do not give a freaking f.ck about solo players and small entities.

Wether they would want to just have an owned home in space, a self owned factory, or a self mining haedquarter, they will have no other choice than using others' structures, or NPCs' ones.
That therefore means, that if they want to venture in a far-away-land, and try to build from scratch in this, they believe, isolated system, they won't be able to anymore.
They'll have to spend a lot of money to own theirs, and risk a lot, or they'll have to use another one's station, and therefore, forget about going in this adventure in that far-away-land as "pioneers".

That's not what i'm calling an "enhanced Sandbox experience".

Going out there, in Minecraft, harvesting blocs, to build his own dirt house sounded way for sandbox-y than what this all Eve Online structure thing is.
POSs were those blocs.
CCP just needs to add a small-sized version of all those structures to let solo players / tiny small entities experience this game as a real Sandbox.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#293 - 2016-10-11 14:14:00 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
There is 100% safety in highsec POSes. You get 24h notice of a war and have sufficient time to remove every single bit of your in-space infrastructure to the absolute safety of a station.


While your POS is down you are not running a business. Your business is interrupted. That is not 100% safety.

You need to understand what industry is about before you start claiming that POSes have 100% safety.

Even with EC your valuable assets are 100% safe. The only risk you take is if you're the one that owns the EC and don't have enough pilots around to defend it from a wardec, and do not make enough profit from public access to cover the inevitable losses.

With ECs the public access fees may help make the structure profitable of its own accord, where a POS was never profitable on its own accord.

So even though they're destructible, ECs represent less risk than a POS, assuming you can attract other industrialists to use your installation.



Wrong...Your assets are not safe..they were safe in a POS if you had your head screwed on, btw, my pos was more than profitable, it paid for itself many times over.

If you have manufacturing lines running and the ec gets hit you lose them, well that's provided you can actually find one that can do all that you want it to do that is.

Industrialists are not going to use these things unless it's bonused to what they need, we could end up having to use 10 different ones spread over 20 jumps to find what we need, no thanks.

Oh, and before anyone comes up with the argument about put your own up, yes I can easily afford it, but no ******* way am I going to shoulder the running costs for god knows how many I would need for a fully bonused manufacturing setup.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#294 - 2016-10-11 14:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Thukker arrays - will they stay 15% and then allow us to build hulls in lowsec for 5.3% ME on top of that? - the thukker was specific to counter the fact NS could refine better and outposts bonuses were better, now everything is equalized

There is no mention of ME/TE bonus on rigs for capital hull in a L, and XL rig only says "Ships" do either include any capital hulls, if so, which ones?



This. I see no rigs for capital ship building. Only Capital Construction Parts. There is a rig for the XL that says "Ships". I find it odd that we can produce dreads, carriers, and FAXes in a large, but we have no rigs for them.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, since caps cannot dock at an Azbel complex, does this mean that when we deliver these complete cap ship jobs at an Azbel complex will the ship simply get ejected out into space untethered? With no one in it, anyone can just walk up to it and steal it. Does this mean I now need an alt sitting out in space waiting to catch the ship like some sort of interstellar wet-nurse?

edit: It would be fine if the completed job were simply delivered to the manufacturing character's hanger and then could be traded to an alt with the proper skills to fly it.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#295 - 2016-10-11 14:45:25 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Thukker arrays - will they stay 15% and then allow us to build hulls in lowsec for 5.3% ME on top of that? - the thukker was specific to counter the fact NS could refine better and outposts bonuses were better, now everything is equalized

There is no mention of ME/TE bonus on rigs for capital hull in a L, and XL rig only says "Ships" do either include any capital hulls, if so, which ones?



This. I see no rigs for capital ship building. Only Capital Construction Parts. There is a rig for the XL that says "Ships". I find it odd that we can produce dreads, carriers, and FAXes in a large, but we have no rigs for them.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, since caps cannot dock at an Azbel complex, does this mean that when we deliver these complete cap ship jobs at an Azbel complex will the ship simply get ejected out into space untethered? With no one in it, anyone can just walk up to it and steal it. Does this mean I now need an alt sitting out in space waiting to catch the ship like some sort of interstellar wet-nurse?

edit: It would be fine if the completed job were simply delivered to the manufacturing character's hanger and then could be traded to an alt with the proper skills to fly it.


The first bit - yes, it seems that Caps (and probably Supers/Titans as they are 'Capitals' and not 'Ships') cannot be produced faster or more efficiently. This is almost the same as now, so I am not surprised. Capitals could be produced faster in upgraded Outposts and, just occasionally, save a component here and there. Their prices will therefore go up a little. Supers/Titans never had those bonuses available and thus their prices/build costs, will remain similar.

As to your second - no - see.....

"Large Engineering Complexes share the same docking restrictions as Medium structures. They can build capital ships and launch them from the internal dry docks but cannot accept docking of capital ships from outside"

So - the Azbel has 'normal' docking bays - you just won't be able to re-dock after launching

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Mariko Musashi Hareka
Kaishin.
#296 - 2016-10-11 15:04:05 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Soldarius wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Thukker arrays - will they stay 15% and then allow us to build hulls in lowsec for 5.3% ME on top of that? - the thukker was specific to counter the fact NS could refine better and outposts bonuses were better, now everything is equalized

There is no mention of ME/TE bonus on rigs for capital hull in a L, and XL rig only says "Ships" do either include any capital hulls, if so, which ones?



This. I see no rigs for capital ship building. Only Capital Construction Parts. There is a rig for the XL that says "Ships". I find it odd that we can produce dreads, carriers, and FAXes in a large, but we have no rigs for them.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, since caps cannot dock at an Azbel complex, does this mean that when we deliver these complete cap ship jobs at an Azbel complex will the ship simply get ejected out into space untethered? With no one in it, anyone can just walk up to it and steal it. Does this mean I now need an alt sitting out in space waiting to catch the ship like some sort of interstellar wet-nurse?

edit: It would be fine if the completed job were simply delivered to the manufacturing character's hanger and then could be traded to an alt with the proper skills to fly it.


The first bit - yes, it seems that Caps (and probably Supers/Titans as they are 'Capitals' and not 'Ships') cannot be produced faster or more efficiently. This is almost the same as now, so I am not surprised. Capitals could be produced faster in upgraded Outposts and, just occasionally, save a component here and there. Their prices will therefore go up a little. Supers/Titans never had those bonuses available and thus their prices/build costs, will remain similar.

As to your second - no - see.....

"Large Engineering Complexes share the same docking restrictions as Medium structures. They can build capital ships and launch them from the internal dry docks but cannot accept docking of capital ships from outside"

So - the Azbel has 'normal' docking bays - you just won't be able to re-dock after launching


As long as they don't get ejected into space that's good then but still think the showing of what youre building to anyone who warps to your EC is a very bad idea especially considering they could never see whether you were building something or not
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#297 - 2016-10-11 15:04:13 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Black Pedro wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
There is 100% safety in highsec POSes. You get 24h notice of a war and have sufficient time to remove every single bit of your in-space infrastructure to the absolute safety of a station.


While your POS is down you are not running a business. Your business is interrupted. That is not 100% safety.

You need to understand what industry is about before you start claiming that POSes have 100% safety.

Even with EC your valuable assets are 100% safe. The only risk you take is if you're the one that owns the EC and don't have enough pilots around to defend it from a wardec, and do not make enough profit from public access to cover the inevitable losses.

With ECs the public access fees may help make the structure profitable of its own accord, where a POS was never profitable on its own accord.

So even though they're destructible, ECs represent less risk than a POS, assuming you can attract other industrialists to use your installation.
Not be able to earn an income is not the same as your in-space assets being at risk.

Currently, your structures are absolutely, 100%, completely safe. Perhaps not your industrial operation, but I don't see why you think you are entitled to that level of certainty. But regardless, the point is that now the structures you will now be benefiting from to do industry and influence the greater economy are now at risk unlike the current situation.

And if you think the ECs represent less risk than the absurdly 100% safe, take everything down and turtle-up possibility we had before, then you are a terrible judge of risk. Before, only potential profits and time were at risk to other players. Now, actual assets can be exploded and you have to put even more assets at risk to try to defend them.


Any amount of time that production lines are down hurts the industrialists' bottom line. Sure, their capital investment may be relatively safe, but they are losing ISK every second it's not working. If you don't understand this, you should not comment on industry. Not all loss is measured in killmails. You can drive someone out of business with war declarations. That's not a bad thing, even if you never get a fight.

I'll also point out that "encouraging cooperation" is another way of saying "the biggest blob wins."

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#298 - 2016-10-11 15:05:24 UTC
Hey folks, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm going through everything and I'll be making a big Q&A post with answers at some point soon.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#299 - 2016-10-11 15:12:18 UTC
Pumhardt wrote:
This kills the little guy..Shocked


This is the biggest problem with all the new structures, in all areas of space. Defending or destroying anything requires larger and larger numbers of people united for a common purpose. In the long run, this will cause a decline in the diversity of the Eve experience.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jew Jew Binks
Doomheim
#300 - 2016-10-11 15:22:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey folks, thanks for all the replies so far. I'm going through everything and I'll be making a big Q&A post with answers at some point soon.