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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#361 - 2016-10-11 19:53:22 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:


I've calculated this through with only 15 blocks per hour, by the way. As long as you can't amortize the fuel costs, you're still building everything with a huge loss. Except for T3-production! T3-production doesn't have to compete with NPC-stations, therefore there is no way to just go to a station and save money.



You're going to have to show your work. As someone else already noted, around 16-17 billion in monthly production input should break-even your fuel cost relative to NPC. That's not unachievable by a small producer at all.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#362 - 2016-10-11 19:55:17 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
No, the table saw needs 15. The table saw, MIG welder, drill press, router, power washer, sand blaster, and bandsaw, in aggregate, cost 45, and the guy in question could actually get by with a hand saw and a tape measure...

...but he WANTS the toys.

You folks go round in circles.
- I want to build stuff!
- Here is your EC
- But 104 rigs too difficult!
- Buy XL
- But I'm poor!
- Use public
- But my freedom!
- Use stations
- Inefficient!
- POS is your choice then
- Outdated!
- Go buy items in the market and deal with it
- But I want to build stuff!

This is a new structure, it gives you new choices. If your cannot handle making choices, then industry might not be your thing, and EVE itself might not be your game either. I like the direction where it goes. Great design plan, hope it works out. It needs some corrections (mentioned earlier, not going to repeat it here), but in general this iteration looks really good.


Yes, the new structures do give you choices, unfortunately almost all of them are complete shite. The only wining move is not to use the new structures, becasue they are either to granular, too expensive or to costly to fuel. No good options.a
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#363 - 2016-10-11 20:14:12 UTC
What a strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#364 - 2016-10-11 20:21:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobb Bobbington
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:


I've calculated this through with only 15 blocks per hour, by the way. As long as you can't amortize the fuel costs, you're still building everything with a huge loss. Except for T3-production! T3-production doesn't have to compete with NPC-stations, therefore there is no way to just go to a station and save money.



You're going to have to show your work. As someone else already noted, around 16-17 billion in monthly production input should break-even your fuel cost relative to NPC. That's not unachievable by a small producer at all.



I consider myself a small, bordering on medium sized producer. I have about 4b in production, with about 2b used for assets (bpos, pos) and 2b in materials. There's absolutely no way in hell I can cycle through that 2b enough times to reach anywhere close to 16-17b throughput. Anyone without 6+ billion in mats will never come anywhere close. That does not count as a small producer. You will either have to have 10b+ to make it worthwhile or be forced to work within a group. Anybody who doesn't want to be part of a group will lose a fair amount of competitive advantage.

Why not be part of a group? Well, being part of a group can be useful. But it also restricts you- you don't get to decide what the array is bonused to, you don't get to make the decisions, and if the corp decides to deny you access to the array, or it gets attacked while you have a 7+ day long job going, you're going to lose a fair amount of isk. Plus, despite the fact that Eve is a team game, sometimes it's no fun getting help. Part of the fun is owning your own things, for instance even a small producer with 700m can set up his own small pos and crank out t2 frigates. But with these changes, owning and making it worthwhile is only possible on a large scale- beyond what a small producer could hope to accomplish.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#365 - 2016-10-11 20:29:19 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Yes, the new structures do give you choices, unfortunately almost all of them are complete shite. The only wining move is not to use the new structures, becasue they are either to granular, too expensive or to costly to fuel. No good options.a

No problem!
If up to 6% ME discount doesnt mean a thing for you, dont use them.
Dont want your private market? Sure, why bother - 2.5% brokers fee is not much.
Courier contracts? Oh I'm sorry, hauling you do is free.
Week-long double reinforcement timers? Assets safety? Too risky, of course.
No good options for you is totally fine. Many good options for me though, which is fine too.

Rob Kaichin wrote:
the more people you expel as "not fit for Eve", the less people you get to play with

The more people quit their second job which is EVE for them, the more people can play a game which is EVE in the first place.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#366 - 2016-10-11 20:36:38 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Urziel99 wrote:
Yes, the new structures do give you choices, unfortunately almost all of them are complete shite. The only wining move is not to use the new structures, becasue they are either to granular, too expensive or to costly to fuel. No good options.a

No problem!
If up to 6% ME discount doesnt mean a thing for you, dont use them.
Dont want your private market? Sure, why bother - 2.5% brokers fee is not much.
Courier contracts? Oh I'm sorry, hauling you do is free.
Week-long double reinforcement timers? Assets safety? Too risky, of course.
No good options for you is totally fine. Many good options for me though, which is fine too.

Rob Kaichin wrote:
the more people you expel as "not fit for Eve", the less people you get to play with

The more people quit their second job which is EVE for them, the more people can play a game which is EVE in the first place.



If you think the numbers are good as they stand now, good luck to you. I shall enjoy watching you go bankrupt trying to leverage low bonuses against high fuel costs.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#367 - 2016-10-11 20:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
I consider myself a small, bordering on medium sized producer. I have about 4b in production, with about 2b used for assets (bpos, pos) and 2b in materials. There's absolutely no way in hell I can cycle through that 2b enough times to reach anywhere close to 16-17b throughput. Anyone without 6+ billion in mats will never come anywhere close.

Well that is wrong.
If I build T1 ships I can easily cycle 2 bil per day. Which is 40 bil per month excluding weekends.

Addon:
If I'm building in hisec with a T2 rig, it gives me 3.6% extra profit. Which is 1.4 bil over said 40 bil throughput per month. The fuel costs will be about 200 mil only. So yeah. Dont use them, ever.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#368 - 2016-10-11 20:55:15 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
I consider myself a small, bordering on medium sized producer. I have about 4b in production, with about 2b used for assets (bpos, pos) and 2b in materials. There's absolutely no way in hell I can cycle through that 2b enough times to reach anywhere close to 16-17b throughput. Anyone without 6+ billion in mats will never come anywhere close.

Well that is wrong.
If I build T1 ships I can easily cycle 2 bil per day. Which is 40 bil per month excluding weekends.


Yeah, I suppose there is some wiggle room in the definition of "small". I come down on the isk-positive side of the threshold (at least when I'm being a bit of a tryhard), but I would certainly consider my operation small relative to others I'm aware of.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#369 - 2016-10-11 20:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
@CCP Fozzie, I don't know if you as a developer have the function to see deleted posts, so I'll summarise my concerns:

1) That LS and HS industrialists in particular, but small producers more generally, are taking a beating in the currently outlined design, even beyond the punishments they have taken from previous developments.

The design you (CCP) have outlined leaves the above players worse off in at least 3 ways:

Firstly, that smaller industrialists will have to spend more to get less, in terms of reward and return on investment. A NS/WH industrialist will have a *guaranteed* 2% advantage on ME and a 20% TE over a HS industrialist before bonuses (Using T1 rigs on a medium EC). At the same time, for that guaranteed disadvantage: people in LS and HS will be spending billions more than they do currently, and billions more in fuel costs, in multiple locations, instead of one unified, organised PoS.

Secondly, smaller industrialists will face a guaranteed loss in the event of a wardec, which, considering the fact that materials, structure modules and components will drop, will undoubtedly increase in frequency.


Finally, that with the ease of usage and transportation of materiel in Eve, any supposed competitive advantage the above players might face would be easily neutralised by NS and WHs producers with an unbeatable ME and TE advantage.
NS players will build things cheaper, faster and more easily, and there will be no recourse for HS players to beat them in the industrial sphere.

Anyway, It’s entirely possible that my account just ran out, so I may not be able to post this.

2) that LS capital producers will be unable to compete (even by CCP's loose meaning of the word), with NS producers, even though CCP has specifically identified LS cap production as a priority. This advantage is not present in the dev-blog right now, so I can only assume it will be removed.

3) that this system is completely out of touch with the way industry actually functions in Eve right now, and that there was little-to-no outreach by CCP to the Industrial community.


Anyway, It's been an experience, but I'm out.

o7

No, my stuff is my own, to become a statistic on "ISK velocity".
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#370 - 2016-10-11 21:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
One advantage of ECs for small players is that you can actually start small and increase your production capacity over time. Select a public EC that is useful to you, be prepared to show up during vulnerability windows, and engage in the ages old game of hoping your side shows up with more firepower than the other side.

NB: your side can win if you have enough logistics and ECM on field to stop every ship in the attacker's fleet from shooting the EC. So fitting the EC with shield transfer and fielding a fleet of basilisks and rooks might work.


update:


  1. Standup Research Lab I consumes 20 blocks/hr.
  2. EC provides 25% reduction in fuel consumption, so 15 blocks/hr.
  3. Fuel blocks ~25k ISK each, so 375,000 ISK/hr
  4. NPC ME research costs about 2% of base cost of produced item, per hour
  5. Assumption: capsuleer labs will have a variable cost determined by the owner, but still a percentage of base otem cost for research, percentage of input cost for invention
  6. Therefore, require approx 375k/0.02 ISK (18.7M ISK) base-item-worth of research jobs per standup lab for breakeven assuming owner charges close to nearby NPCs


Conclusion: get your ME/PE/copy research done now, before CCP hikes the prices up to make ECs look economically viable.

Also, each lab will be profitable assuming there is a steady presence of invention, ME/PE/copy research for ships and valuable modules.
Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#371 - 2016-10-11 21:09:12 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
I consider myself a small, bordering on medium sized producer. I have about 4b in production, with about 2b used for assets (bpos, pos) and 2b in materials. There's absolutely no way in hell I can cycle through that 2b enough times to reach anywhere close to 16-17b throughput. Anyone without 6+ billion in mats will never come anywhere close.

Well that is wrong.
If I build T1 ships I can easily cycle 2 bil per day. Which is 40 bil per month excluding weekends.


A few questions
1. How often do you buy your minerals- I.e. If you buy your minerals and sell the ships on the same day, this is accurate, but if you only haul once every 3 days, sure you're putting through 2b a day but you're utilizing 6b in mats at a time- putting you past the small industrial category
2. What if you weren't building t1 ships? Can you cycle the same amount without working on thin margins? Is it possible for you to cycle 10 times a month making t2 items?

The problem I have with the current arrays, is while they are useful for large groups and a few niches they're replacing a system which is able to be used by smaller groups or less wealthy players, without a decent alternative except "pack your bags to a highsec npc station". Any small traders not willing to join a large group are forced into only being bonused for a few items while suffering the same fuel costs

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

Aurra Jol
Skouriotissa
Get Off My Lawn
#372 - 2016-10-11 21:17:19 UTC
Bobb Bobbington wrote:
I believe that the rig bonuses are far too specialized. For instance, I manufacture T2 Amarr ships and t1 battleships from bottom up. With the current rigs though, I would have to buy multiple industrial arrays in order to maintain bonuses on my setup- Component bonuses, t2 small bonuses, t2 medium bonuses, t1 medium bonuses, t1 large bonuses, copying bonuses, invention bonuses, etc. Even with that setup I'm losing other more insignificant bonuses, and any benefit I could get to installing all of these is destroyed by the massive fuel costs coming from two or more arrays.

I realize that other people would probably be using the same arrays, and we could split fuel costs. However, multiple people will rarely ever be producing the same items. Half of the people would still be missing out on bonuses relevant to them, and they may as well manufacture in a station. With the way they are currently planned, it is un-economical for anything but the most massive corps with multiple people making the same things to set up arrays. Everybody else will be shafted into using arrays placed in highsec that others have put up, or in stations, limiting the variety of space in which industry can be accomplished. It is simply unfeasible for mediums and larges to be used by small corporations due to the limited variety of bonuses, and any large corp would be better off shelling 30b for the x-large to avoid prohibitive fuel costs.

I try, however, not to criticize without posting solutions. There are two ways of making things easier. Seperate the large and x-large rigs so that one is ME and one is TE, but then combine the groupings. For instance, instead of T1 small, t2 small, t1 medium, t2 medium, t1 large, and t2 large, there would be T1 ship ME, T1 ship TE, T2 ship ME, and T2 ship TE. This would allow people to choose what bonuses they wanted, but over a wider variety of items, making it easier to support medium sized groups by larges. I still believe in even my example that there would be too many different rigs and bonuses, but I think it would be a step in the right directions.

I also have a few misc. questions for CCP

  • Since null and wormholes seem to get the same bonuses, will wormholes also get a way to reduce system cost index?
  • Will rig costs also be decreased and by how much? What are they expected to cost?
  • How much are the service modules expected to cost?
  • What will happen to jobs in progress if the service modules become unfueld?


I would not look to drop multiple ECs to accomplish all of the bonuses you are seeking. All activities can be performed in the ECs, the difference is that the rigs will provide benefits to their particular industrial activity.

If I were manufacturing the type of things you are, I would rig for T2 manufacturing as that cost vastly outweighs T1 manufacturing. I would not rig for copying bonuses. Invention is a possibility if I can extract better ME/TE on the T2 BPC based on similar inputs to current game mechanics.

So, based on your original paragraph, I would rig as follows:

T2 Component ME
T2 Medium Ship ME
T1 Small Ship ME

Last two rigs can be alternated based on the volume of your manufacturing between the two classes.
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2016-10-11 21:44:07 UTC
The devs should increase job install costs with this expansion, like they increased broker fees/tax with citadels. Disappointing that they haven't mentioned it.

I installed a 430m isk vindicator last night but only paid about 1.5 million to start the job. Installed a 600 million isk job a while ago, paid around 3 million to start it.

Those numbers are paltry and the monthly economic report agrees by showing manufacturing costs way down the list of sinks. Install costs should get a significant bump across the board.

Money is cheap and easy to come by at the moment, devs need to be adding bigger sinks to the game to compensate. This is a good opportunity to do that.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#374 - 2016-10-11 21:49:41 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
The devs should increase job install costs with this expansion, like they increased broker fees/tax with citadels. Disappointing that they haven't mentioned it.

I installed a 430m isk vindicator last night but only paid about 1.5 million to start the job. Installed a 600 million isk job a while ago, paid around 3 million to start it.

Those numbers are paltry and the monthly economic report agrees by showing manufacturing costs way down the list of sinks. Install costs should get a significant bump across the board.

Money is cheap and easy to come by at the moment, devs need to be adding bigger sinks to the game to compensate. This is a good opportunity to do that.

They already did that in crius by adding install fees (or something along that line) to begin with.

And considering almost all of these items are bought and sold at numerous points in the process, I think the extra brokers fee has covered up on it already.
Tydius Nolad
JBSK
#375 - 2016-10-11 21:51:03 UTC
I don't know what folks are complaining about. I can keep 50+ build slots busy 24x7 with profitable production in an NPC station near Jita when I bother. I can do invention in an NPC station profitably as well. If you don't like the new industrial complexes, don't use them. There's plenty of profit to be made using NPC stations.
DiDDleR
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#376 - 2016-10-11 21:52:25 UTC
I guess this will be lost in a sea of "go join a large corp" or "use someone elses" comments but everyone is entitled to an opinion right?

I think we need some definitive comments from CCP on the direction that has been made with these "proposed" changes to structures and industry in general and what the intended outcome of these changes is to be.

I have several accounts and like to mix it up with different play-styles however one thing I always return to as a constant is manufacturing and research / invention. Call me a spreadsheet warrior and I will take it as a compliment, yes I spend many hours plugging figures into google sheets so I can make a bit of ISK to help fund other play-styles and sometimes if I'm lucky plex an account or add an additional skill training queue.

I've been running a medium faction POS for around a year and offering its services free of charge to my small corporation. We have enough fitting room to run manufacturing, research, invention and refining or compresssion. Also we can quickly power down modules and swap production say from T2 ships to freighters. Also if war-decced the industry modules can be off-lined and defenses on-lined.

We / I also have control over when modules are off-lined or important decisions that can be made during a war-dec of whether to stop a job and lose materials or risk continuing. I understand that there is asset safety but if you are invested in building a freighter for example and for whatever reason that job is running in a public facility and is stopped then going by current mechanics you would lose you (expensive) materials.

My fuel cost is currently 18 fuel blocks per hour for all of this which equates to something in the region of 200-300M isk per month (I also manufacture my own fuel in the POS). The fuel cost of the new medium engineering complex is more than twice this amount, in the region of 700M isk per month I would guess, so verging on unreasonable for the smaller independent guy (or gal).

I have limited time available as I work full-time and also play other games, so my I play solo in Eve quite a bit. I'd love to be the "Chief Builder" for some big alliance but with the time I have to invest and my other interests I don't believe that would ever be possible.

I've read all the comments thus far in the thread and so far there appears three main opinions.

1. Those who believe my play style and that of lots of others is invalid and we should either join a bigger org or get stuffed...
2. Those who believe their play style is being nerfed by CCP in favour of larger orgs / meddling with the economy
3. Those who are ready to embrace the changes as a small industrialist and either use a public facility or NPC stations

For me the flexibility of having my own facility which I could swap modules on or power down for short game breaks / war decs was the attraction of having my POS. Also the bonuses which made it more profitable to use than an NPC station.

I was pretty hyped about new structures until I've actually digested the information and let it sink in and now it seems like a huge nerf to industry when POS structures are finally removed from the game. Maybe buidling in an NPC will become more profitable somewhere down the line when the changes finally kick into the economy.

For me there is good and bad with this and I feel maybe too much is being changed in one sweep where smaller iterative changes might work for the better.

o7 to my fellow solo / small industrialists.

Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2016-10-11 22:01:44 UTC
Rowells wrote:

They already did that in crius by adding install fees (or something along that line) to begin with.

And considering almost all of these items are bought and sold at numerous points in the process, I think the extra brokers fee has covered up on it already.


Again, manufacturing costs are only about 2 trillion isk sink. The LP store brings 6 trillion isk out of the economy. That's silly. Increase install costs 3 times so that vindi costs 4.5m to install. That's not going to put anyone in the poor house but it would definitely help pull a bunch more isk out of the economy.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#378 - 2016-10-11 22:13:28 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:

Do you think if I asked them really nicely the sleepers in the C3 would put up a NPC station for me to research my blueprints

It's almost as if your isolation bubble has a door.

You can come into the out now. If it doesn't make sense for your operation to put up research and invention facilities, keep the BPO's safe in stations for those tasks. Or at a public facility suitable for those tasks. Periodically import the copies you need.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#379 - 2016-10-11 22:14:19 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Rowells wrote:

They already did that in crius by adding install fees (or something along that line) to begin with.

And considering almost all of these items are bought and sold at numerous points in the process, I think the extra brokers fee has covered up on it already.


Again, manufacturing costs are only about 2 trillion isk sink. The LP store brings 6 trillion isk out of the economy. That's silly. Increase install costs 3 times so that vindi costs 4.5m to install. That's not going to put anyone in the poor house but it would definitely help pull a bunch more isk out of the economy.

What do you mean it's silly? Was it supposed to be somewhere else?

Not every sink in the game needs to be equal to all others. And like I said before, the vast majority of those manufactured materials and products are bought and sold on open markets. This means those increased brokers fees apply there.

So why would an increase be needed? A reason other than "I think it's weird" if you don't mind.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#380 - 2016-10-11 22:17:58 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry Pedro but you might want to go "read" the blog.
Pos's are going nowhere for the medium term ( a good while yet), Pos's once setup are more efficient than even the best set up EC and far cheaper to run, easier to defend, cheaper to replace (worst case your pos dies to a rare highsec wardec), cheaper initial outlay (by at least 100% over a medium EC).

Cost (in time and isk) vs Reward - There is as of November NO reason to change what you do now for your manufacturing needs.
EC's are to expensive to buy and maintain, too vulnerable, too limited in output options - for not enough return.
For what these things can do and how vulnerable to destruction they are - They should be as cheap or cheaper than current pos's.
Alternately - Just never remove pos's so manufacturers don't have to risk going broke because Devs have no idea about how Eve is played.
For shites sake, CCP is bleeding subscriptions then Devs come up with new ways to encourage more to quit, how fukin smart is that.
I did read the blog, and am aware they aren't going anywhere for a while.

But the time is fast approaching. Feature parity is closer than you think. Outpost deployment is being frozen already in December and from the CSM minutes they are working hard to get to the point as soon a they can to delete the hated POS code.

CCP is correct to go slow and ease them out of the game only once everything has a replacement. But manufacturing is one of the major uses for POSes and we can tick that off the list, leaving just the upcoming Drilling Platform and perhaps some form of the player star gates which could be out by the spring which will be around the time they start phasing them out. Enjoy your POSes while you still can.

CCP has no choice but to go slow - Forcing players to pay more than double what they do now for less functionality, more risk and less return - How fast do you want to see the next drop in numbers playing eve?

Most games aim for highest number of logins - CCP decided, going for lowest amount we can make the most out of, was a far better idea. So, cost to do anything in the game keeps going up in stupid increments, more players lose interest (or just find they can't compete anymore) - And quit.


CCP needs to start looking after its PAYING customers, or keep losing them.

This plus the Orca changes, could see another 15 accounts unsubbed by Xmas. I'll give it a couple of months to see how badly my operation is affected.
I'm not threatening CCP, 15 subs is nothing to them in the scheme of things (but it is to me, it means even less reason to login my other characters)
No you can'y have my stuff - I'll trash it all and biomass the characters before I'll give a lazy selfish nerd my stuff.


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.